Nirnhoned increase for 1.6.3

DeLindsay · February 2015

I'm taking this straight from the 1.6.3 Patch Notes.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Traits
Increased the value of the Nirnhoned Trait so it is 50% stronger than the Reinforced Trait for armor.

Here's my problem. I got onto PTS and checked out the base (White item) for Nirnhoned and it's 2.5%, the same as Live. Unfortunately I couldn't find anyone to link a Legendary item so I could see what the end value increased to. On Live it caps at 4.5%, so it's a 0.5% increase per Improvement Tier. Can one of you fine folks on EU check what the value is at Legendary? Or at the very least, could you check what the Improvement increments are? I'm really hoping ZoS DID actually increase the Legendary value instead of nerfing Reinforced to half of Nirnhoned's 4.5% and say they increased Nirnhoned lol. I've tested it and Armor values weren't nerfed in 1.6.3, NOTHING was changed at all with Reinforced and Nirnhoned.

DeLindsay · February 2015

Also if you need me to, I can hop on PTS and send you some of my Template Gold for your effort, not that Gold matters on PTS but it's the thought that counts right.

helediron · February 2015

I made two Hist bark Cuirass, VR14
White reinforced, +12% to armor, armor 2638.
White nirnhoned, +2,5% to spell resistance, armor 2356.
Golden reinforced, +16% to armor, armor 3141.
Golden nirnhoned, +4,5% to spell resistance, armor 2708.
I can make a full set for some tank to test these at epic level . Send PTS mail to @helediron .

DeLindsay · February 2015

Thank you for checking, I'll hop on PTS shortly and shoot you some Gold for your effort. So I'm curious what exactly the "increase" is for Nirnhoned when it's the exact same value in 1.6.3 as it is on Live for Legendary, 4.5%. And also 16% for Legendary Reinforced is the same as Live as well. I guess I'll bug report it when I hop on PTS since there's no change whatsoever.

Also, based on your numbers above of 3141 for VR14 Legendary Reinforced that gives 4.8% Armor. For Nirnhoned to be increased to a value of 50% stronger than Reinforced it'd have to be 7.2% at Legendary not 4.5%.

BUG report #150218-000293 submitted, and PTS Bug thread started.

DeLindsay · February 2015

PTS Patch notes 1.6.4 has supposedly fixed this.

helediron · February 2015

I made this time two Torug's pact Cuirass, VR14
White reinforced, +12% to armor, armor 2638.
White nirnhoned, +18% to spell resistance, armor 2356.
Golden reinforced, +16% to armor, armor 3141.
Golden nirnhoned, +24% to spell resistance, armor 2708.

Total character armor and spell resistances are with different golden chests, while other armor is light (note that skill points are missing because patch 164 reset them on EU toons):
Shirt (light armor), infused
Armor: 3950
Spell resistance: 3731

Cuirass, reinforced
Armor: 6543
Spell resistance: 6180

Cuirass, nirnhoned
Armor: 6084
Spell resistance: 7126

DeLindsay · February 2015

@helediron ty for the testing. Unfortunately now I'm even more confused than before. In 1.6 we have this:

1 Armor = 1 Spell Resistance
2708 Armor (non-Reinforced) = 2708 Spell Resistance.
+24% Nirnhoned = 3358 Spell Resistance
Difference between the 2 = 650 (or 1% actual Spell Resistance value)

On Live Nirnhoned is worth 4.5% actual Spell Resistance value (not counting overcharged) so isn't this a MASSIVE nerf to Nirnhoned even though they buffed it by a huge percentage? What it means potentially is that only the Chest and Shield will give 1% Resistance each while the 4 off-pcs will give far less than 1% for Nirnhoned (value of the Trait, not total value from Armor as well) as those pcs have much less Armor value to begin with. It seems as though even with the great increase Nirnhoned will still be nearly useless in 1.6. Even running 8 pcs would only net you like +6.8% additional Spell Resistance at Legendary. The Weapon value for Nirnhoned would then be superior to all 8 body pcs combined as it doesn't give an actual Armor value so it's 5% base (White Weapon) is 5% actual Spell Resistance value.

More to point, if you have 10% Spell Resistance in full gear (no Nirnhoned) and you:

Change Only a Weapon to Nirnhoned = 15% Spell Resistance (at base, White)
Change only the Chest to Nirnhoned = 11% Spell Resistance (at Legendary)
Change only the Chest & Shield to Nirnhoned = 12% Spell Resistance (at Legendary)

helediron · February 2015

Little bit more: Previous numbers were with sharpened staff. Here i have nirnhoned staff.

Cuirass, reinforced and nirnhoned destro staff
Armor: 6543
Spell resistance: 7292

Cuirass, nirnhoned and nirnhoned destro staff
Armor: 6084
Spell resistance: 8408

Iduyenn · February 2015

So... since i dont get it yet... what is better? ^^ (Tank perspective).

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152324/1-6-3-templar-imperial-vs-altmer-input-needed-for-tank

helediron · February 2015

And one more, now nirnhoned belt: In previous tests the belt was VR13 martial Knowledge, divines. Changing that to VR14 increased armor and SP by 10.

Total character armor and spell resistances are with different golden belts, while other armor is light:
Sash Torug's, divines:
Armor: 3960
Spell resistance: 3740

Sash Torug's, nirnhoned
Armor: 3960
Spell resistance: 4637

Then throw in the nirnhoned cuirass and destro staff, so three nirnhoned items:
Armor: 6094
Spell resistance: 10052

Is tired, can't calculate...

DeLindsay · February 2015

Once again ty @helediron and last night I spent like 2 hours on an off Live-PTS to make sure I understood the math and it looks like either I was wrong about Nirnhoned on Live being a flat 4.5% (at Legendary) or my Character screen tooltip was bugged because I couldn't get anywhere near 292.5 Spell Resistance (65*4.5) when I added a single Nirnhoned item. In fact I was only getting an additional 5 Spell Resistance (I was in Medium Armor so no where close to overcharged).

Although I didn't craft a Nirnhoned Weapon I'm fairly confident that it's the same, as in not a flat rate but only an increase of whatever your Spell Resistance is at the time you equip the Nirnhoned Weapon.

Other tests I did and things I calculated showed both pretty dismal results. I was right that on 1.6.4 Nirnhoned is only adding 1% actual Spell Resistance to a Legendary Chest but I was way off on how much it adds to the 4 off-pcs. Belt and Gloves combined only give ~0.86% Spell Resistance for Nirnhoned and both at Legendary, barely worth the effort. For VR14 Legendary I get these values:

Helm: 2341 Armor (2715 Reinforced) - 374 diff + 50% Nirnhoned = 561 Resistance (0.86% Resistance)
Shoulders: 2341 Armor (2715 Reinforced) - 374 diff + 50% Nirnhoned = 561 Resistance (0.86% Resistance)
Gloves: 1338 Armor (1552 Reinforced) - 214 diff + 50% Nirnhoned = 321 Resistance (0.49% Resistance)
Legs: 2341 Armor (2715 Reinforced) - 374 diff + 50% Nirnhoned = 561 Resistance (0.86% Resistance)
Chest: 2708 (3141 Reinforced) - 433 diff + 50% Nirnhoned = 650 Resistance (1% Resistance)
Belt: 1015 (1177 Reinforced) - 162 diff + 50% Nirnhoned = 243 Resistance (0.37% Resistance)
Boots: 2341 Armor (2715 Reinforced) - 374 diff + 50% Nirnhoned = 561 Resistance (0.86% Resistance)
Shield: 1660 Armor (1925 Reinforced) - 265 diff + 50% Nirnhoned = 398 Resistance (0.61% Resistance)
TOTAL for all 8 Legendary Nirnhoned: 5.91% added Spell Resistance

Nirnhoned is basically a complete joke in 1.6. On the other hand I was testing the Champion System to see if the added points into the Stars reflected as a base % or overall % and it would seem that the Champion System goes off your base Armor/Spell Resistance (everything equipped but zero Passives). This isn't a huge difference but it's noticeable. I spent 6 points in Spell Shield for 3.5% and 5 points in Heavy Armor focus for 2.5% and here's what I actually got:

Spell Resistance: 21,786 without CP - 22,462 with +3.5% (676 added for 1.04% Resistance instead of 3.5%).
Armor: 19,941 without CP - 20,369 with +2.5% (428 added for 0.65% Armor instead of 2.5%).

danno8 · February 2015

The 5.9% makes sense relative to how much Reinforced trait gives, which is ~2.6% for full medium with. Did not ZoS say it would give double that of reinforced trait?

So you either choose a 50/50 mix of physical/magical with reinforced or 100% magical with nirn.

helediron · February 2015

Maybe this is the new quota system that replaced soft caps? So you can get big looking numbers but they only fill their own slice in the pie.

DeLindsay · February 2015

helediron wrote: »

Maybe this is the new quota system that replaced soft caps? So you can get big looking numbers but they only fill their own slice in the pie.

You're probably right.

angelyn · February 2015

Ok so I've not done calculations (this time!) but here are some thoughts..

Hmm. .that sounds like an invisible diminishing return. Did you test by equipping 1 piece of armor and the rest naked, or by adding 1 piece of armour at a time to what was already equipped? I think an interesting idea would be to do both and compare.( so would need naked player with base spell resist of x,no passives/skills slotted etc, adding 1 piece(both nirn and reinforced ) at a time supposedly giving x% and seeing what the resulting spell resist is...and do this within live and pts...AND to do same thing but only equip one piece at a time...so that would be a 4way comparison?)but that would just be cruelty

The only way that they could have done 50% of the 16% increase is by changing nirnhoned to use that piece of armour to calculate % instead of using your total spell resist to calculate the %. However, if you tested by adding 1 piece of armour at a time,and the effect was based on cumulative spell resist but..resulted in a diminishing return- then perhaps they are using a combination of both ways that nirn could be calculated. Ie both as a % of the spell resist that piece provides and as a %of your total spell resist.

Also..I could have sworn they said that soft caps were being removed. So if the CP said it was giving you 3.5% it should have given you 3.5%(since the diminishing return calculated and the result displayed on tooltip in the CP system.) Unless...you were getting close to the hardcap? Surely you wouldn't get ever reducing effectiveness from your pieces/points- it should provide the full effectiveness of the piece/point until you reach the hardcap;when it will suddenly provide you with 0.

I'm interested in how this turns out since I'm going to need all the protection I can get once U6 hits. Anyway random thoughts is all I can help with at the moment

..only X weeks until my research is finished

DeLindsay · February 2015

Alright I did some testing with the Champion System to see how exactly it scales (in regards to Armor/Resistance) and here's what I found. Dumping points into Spell Shield for example gives you increased Spell Resistance. The tooltip shows increases at 1%, 1.6%, 2.2%, etc. One could surmise that it increases your Spell Resistance by a static 650 per 1% but it does not. The increase is based on your Armor alone with zero Passives that effect said armor. I tried this first with the full set of Wise Mage (no Armor/Resistance set bonuses) that you get in the Template box and here's what I got as results, remember 650 is 1%.

NO Passives, just Armor

Base Resistance: 3674
Spell Shield 1 (1%): 3711
Spell Shield 2 (1.6%) 3734
Spell Shield 3 (2.2%): 3753
Spell Shield 4 (2.6%): 3771
Spell Shield 5 (3.1%) 3787
Spell Shield 6 (3.5%): 3803

ALL Passives plus Armor

Base Resistance: 6138
Spell Shield 1 (1%): 6175 [1% = 6199]
Spell Shield 2 (1.6%) 6198
Spell Shield 3 (2.2%): 6217
Spell Shield 4 (2.6%): 6235
Spell Shield 5 (3.1%) 6251
Spell Shield 6 (3.5%): 6267 [3.5% = 6352]

NO Passives, Tank Armor (1845 Resistance set bonus)

Base Resistance: 19327 / Base Armor 17482
Spell Shield 1 (1%): 19520 / Heavy Armor Focus 1 (1%): 17657 [Spell Res unchanged]
Spell Shield 2 (1.6%) 19641 / Heavy Armor Focus 2 (1.5%): 17739 [Spell Res unchanged]
Spell Shield 3 (2.2%): 19744 / Heavy Armor Focus 3 (1.8%): 17804 [Spell Res unchanged]
Spell Shield 4 (2.6%): 19836 / Heavy Armor Focus 4 (2.2%): 17860 [Spell Res unchanged]
Spell Shield 5 (3.1%) 19922 / Heavy Armor Focus 5 (2.5%): 17910 [Spell Res unchanged]
Spell Shield 6 (3.5%): 20003 / Heavy Armor Focus 6 (2.7%): 17956 [Spell Res unchanged]

ALL Passives, Tank Armor (1845 Resistance set bonus)

Base Resistance: 24286
Spell Shield 1 (1%): 24479 [1% = 24529]
Spell Shield 2 (1.6%) 24600
Spell Shield 3 (2.2%): 24703
Spell Shield 4 (2.6%): 24795
Spell Shield 5 (3.1%) 24881
Spell Shield 6 (3.5%): 24962 [3.5% = 25136]

*One thing to note, abilities like Unstoppable which give you Major Ward and Major Resolve, increasing Armor and Spell Resistance by 5120 are separate from any diminishing returns and add the full value when used. BTW, when I tried using the Champion System naked my increases were the numerical value 1, 2 ,3 ,4 ,5, etc, nothing more. So based on these results I can surmise a few things:

The Champion System is based on your Armor only, no Passives.
The increases are a % of your base Armor value, not a static value.
Set Bonuses that add Armor/Resistance do not skew the increase.
Adding Armor in the Champion System does NOT add Spell Resistance.
Having a higher base Armor/Resistance does not skew the increase.
No wonder most stats are x10 when the first +1% Resistance only actually gives us ~0.30% Resistance and +3.5% Resistance only actually gives us ~1.1%.

madangrypally · February 2015

This is true for most of the other champion point passives. Very insightful post.

angelyn · February 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

The Champion System is based on your Armor only, no Passives.

The increases are a % of your base Armor value, not a static value.

Set Bonuses that add Armor/Resistance do not skew the increase.

Adding Armor in the Champion System does NOT add Spell Resistance.

Having a higher base Armor/Resistance does not skew the increase.

No wonder most stats are x10 when the first +1% Resistance only actually gives us ~0.30% Resistance and +3.5% Resistance only actually gives us ~1.1%.

Wow! That's some very intense testing there!A very thorough job @DeLindsay ! It's a pity that added armour through passives etc does not count towards spell resistance.I wonder if that is intended? Actually why does adding armour through Champion System NOT give spell resistance? If that is intended, then it means base spell resist was nerfed into being per armour piece, in order to make nirnhoned more attractive (as currently no one uses it)- since it is potentially the only viable source of spell resist now- ( since armour and resistance glyphs took a hit as well) Perhaps I'm a bit too cynical

So my thoughts are:
Is it intended that extra armour via set bonus/passives etc doesn't count towards the base that the % is taken from?
Is it intended that adding armour in the Champion System doesn't give spell resistance as well?Perhaps it's linked to that fault that someone found where those CP were not adding any armour at all-maybe they fixed it but forgot to add the spell resistance to it as well

DeLindsay · February 2015

angelyn wrote: »

Is it intended that extra armour via set bonus/passives etc doesn't count towards the base that the % is taken from?
Is it intended that adding armour in the Champion System doesn't give spell resistance as well?Perhaps it's linked to that fault that someone found where those CP were not adding any armour at all-maybe they fixed it but forgot to add the spell resistance to it as well

It counts but what I meant by my findings is that having an Armor/Resistance set bonus doesn't change how the % scales from the Champion System. Meaning that if you have 17K Armor with no set bonuses and you place 1 pt into Heavy Armor Focus you will only increase your Armor value by 0.3%. If you have 18,800 Armor with 1 set bonus and you place 1 pt into Heavy Armor Focus you will still get only 0.3% increase. Meaning that having very low Armor or very high Armor (base value of ONLY what is on the gear itself) doesn't change how the Champion Points are scaled, only Passives reduce the effectiveness of each point. The more Passives you have the less effective the Champion System is. I haven't yet decided whether that's a good thing or bad thing, but it is what it is.