Why XP Potions are showing a horrific progression towards a Pay to Win mentality.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

Im still not sure why people who cant play all day (through choice) should be equivalent to those who sacrifice everything to do so. It just reeks of 'must have it now' self-entitlement.

GreySix · February 2015

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

Im still not sure why people who cant play all day (through choice) should be equivalent to those who sacrifice everything to do so. It just reeks of 'must have it now' self-entitlement.

Who are these people who play all day? Do they have jobs? Who pays for their home, internet connection, rig, electricity, and game subscription.

Now, I'm a retired Army officer, so I have a steady income, but I also took on another career afterward, so that doesn't leave me many days to play all day ... not to mention that doing so would eventually irritate my wife.

DDuke · February 2015

XP Boosters are P2W, no matter how people twist the concept around.

You are paying for advantages in game, you are paying to help you win. Simple.

What we can argue about, is how badly P2W it is.

On scale 1-10, I would rate ESO's around 9 for the following reasons:

XP Boosters affect Champion Points (which take years for average person to max out)
Champion Points directly affect your character's strength. A person with 40-50% more Champion Points (assuming someone is using all the ways to boost XP) will have around 15-20% stronger character than you. Why? Because $$$.

To attain scale 10, I would urge ZOS to make all Trials gear (and even stronger gear) purchasable via Cash Shop.
After all, that'd be just saving time (convenience), right?

Joejudas · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Hey, wanna know the main reason this isn't pay to win?

The XP potions in the Crown Store, can be bought with in-game gold.

The ring of mara requires you to be grouped with it's counterpart in order to get the bonus.

If you continue to subscribe, you're paying money for a game that is now free. You should be getting some extra bang for your buck.

You're welcome

/thread

so they came back and said " we are taking back the part about in game gold and re thinking that idea entirely" so read next time before you start bashing on the OP. your welcome

GreySix · February 2015

As a fun aside, described this conversation to my wife, regarding using XP pots, and getting XP boosts being equated as P2W.

She nodded and said, "That's what I wanna do."

I laughed, and then had to apologize.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

GreySix wrote: »

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

Im still not sure why people who cant play all day (through choice) should be equivalent to those who sacrifice everything to do so. It just reeks of 'must have it now' self-entitlement.

Who are these people who play all day? Do they have jobs? Who pays for their home, internet connection, rig, electricity, and game subscription.

Now, I'm a retired Army officer, so I have a steady income, but I also took on another career afterward, so that doesn't leave me many days to play all day ... not to mention that doing so would eventually irritate my wife.

Ugh get off your lazy ass sir. Leaving the NCO's to do all the work

To answer that question is a bit difficult, since each case is different.

Personally; since starting the game and mostly from Tamriel Foundry friends;

One couple - the female of which is disabled - Plays all day (and loves it)
On that similar theme I've got a real life friend with a very bad illness - also playing for a good many hours.

Theres a guy in the midlands UK, working as a security guard at late nights - He plays alot during the day. Dont ask me when he sleeps lol.

A girl who games professionally so to speak, along with a few others working for home - So they self support.

Then there are the students (playing over most of summer break) and a few part timers, who clock so many hours it might as well be all day.

Im sure theres more but ugh. Its going to get too long.

I understand the point that people dont always have time to give - but such is life. Everything is a choice with a cost. There are penalties to everything, just as playing all day wrecks your fitness (or is that the bbq hmm lol) and I maintain that people should be rewarded accordingly for investment. Whatever circumstances that may be. If the rules dont apply to everyone it gets messy pretty fast.

GreySix · February 2015

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

Im still not sure why people who cant play all day (through choice) should be equivalent to those who sacrifice everything to do so. It just reeks of 'must have it now' self-entitlement.

Who are these people who play all day? Do they have jobs? Who pays for their home, internet connection, rig, electricity, and game subscription.

Now, I'm a retired Army officer, so I have a steady income, but I also took on another career afterward, so that doesn't leave me many days to play all day ... not to mention that doing so would eventually irritate my wife.

Ugh get off your lazy ass sir. Leaving the NCO's to do all the work

Touche!

Don't call me Sergeant, I supervise for a living!

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

GreySix wrote: »

Touche!

Don't call me Sergeant, I supervise for a living!

Haha, thats our staffy alright. Sergeant's out on the floor with the rest - poor sod.

Sheuib · February 2015

People paying for stuff is what is allowing the elimination of monthly subscription. Like any business they need to make money to maintain the business. You deny the money you deny the business. Same thing with the people that are paying. No one pays without some sort of benefit. People are not going to pay just so others can play for free. You have to accept that this is a business and let them make their money. I guarantee not a single person complaining works for free.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

I do plenty of voluntary work. My primary vacation doesnt give me an option to work for free though, as im sure is the case for most.

Your premise is true in part but theres certainly no reason why what people buy has to be things that allow them to circumvent the work of others. It may be what people do certainly, doesnt mean I agree.

Maximis_ESO · February 2015

LOL..... all I can do is laugh....

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

LOL..... all I can do is laugh....

Dont you have a button you can click for posts like that? Oh wait.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · February 2015

Froggmann5 wrote: »

Ring of Mara - 10% XP Boost
ESO + - 10 % XP Boost
XP Boosting Potions - 10 XP Boost.

We already have a paid for 30% Boost in XP coming up, with nothing showing Zenimax won't stop this any time soon.

This all applies to Champion points as well. I wouldn't be bothered by this, except to get the 30% Increase in XP gain, you have to pay real life money for all of these methods. That, and there is absolutely no way to get them outside of paying out of pocket to Zenimax.

Inb4 "That's not very much."

You can't say that, because now, it affects champion points as well. Which means, that Within the first month of release, those that pay for these boosts will be at least two weeks ahead in acquisition of Champion Points, and total XP earned.

The only way this is reparable is if you can acquire the Ring of Mara and create the XP Potions in game yourselves as players. The XP potions being a high-high level potion, and them be trade-able. Rings of Mara that were not gotten during the Pre-Order, should be allowed in the game at a lower quality with a cool down.

I wonder when we'll have double XP Potions...

if your here playing this game you have been paying to sub this whole time; therefore your willing to pay to play this game. now you can play for free but you will level more if you keep your sub.

so keep your sub

ring of mara is ok but it gimps your build if your high level so its hardly an issue

xp boost, meh. the cp system is so strong they will have to introduce buying characters with less than average cp or no new players can enter competitive play anyway.

kinda sucks, but I want this game to have a workforce behind it. will stop playing if they earn no money and have to stop balancing and developing the game.

Deheart · February 2015

LunaRae wrote: »

....
WoW hands out level boosts for 60$ ...
....

And that is exactly the reason I will never play WoW again.
That is paying money to cheat. Even if its blizzard providing the service for its own game, its still cheating, just with permission.

One of the things I like about subscription MMO's is that everyone starts with the same choices, and that you advance in the games depending only on how you play, not how much you pay. Which is why I am sad this game is going BTP. I am definitely going to give it a chance because I see it going the distance, but if it crosses the line, I probably will loose interest. At least I still have Skyrim on my PS3.

Hunterdan · February 2015

I'd prefer they simply not have stuff like this purchasable at all. But I suppose in the end I don't really care. If they ruin the game by crossing too far into The Dark Side, I just wouldn't play anymore.

To Zeni - C'mon guys. You can fill your store with skins, costumes, pets, and various other cosmetics and very likely do incredibly well. If your game is awesome, your players are going to WANT to show off that awesome premium mount. If you cross too far into The Dark Side of microtransactions, you risk alienating your vocal playerbase which will very likely influence the majority of your players. It pisses people off in principle. Even if you think you're simply attempting to cater to players with limited time, you're actually creating an environment where those who do not pay extra feel as if they're at a disadvantage / wasting their time.

Suggestion - Do not allow the crown store xp buff to stack with the subscription buff. If a player wishes to purchase the benefits of the premium service a la carte, I think most players would be cool with that.

Bouvin · February 2015

If you've tested how much of a difference (and it's big) having more CP makes, then you can see how XP pots and all the boosts are p2w.

Just go test it... 70 cp vs 300 is huge. 3600... even bigger factor.

Mettaricana · February 2015

im ok with the pots im on my 7th play through and the re leveling and vet content is like pulling teeth without Novocaine so im all for it. in the end your only a little further ahead til you hit the wall on champion points

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

Yes, the potions are P2W. They give you an advantage in getting CP's which will give an advantage over other players. Anyone who thinks the shop will stay the same over a 5 year period WITHOUT P2W items is being VERY OPTIMISTIC. I hope that this potion is the last P2W item of course, but obviously the chances are that this will not be the last P2W item.

Hortator Mopa · February 2015

Didn't read any of the replies because I just know that it will be the same as other threads...

To the OP:

I agree, lets be honest though.. This game is going to crash and turn bad. Its just a question of how long it will take. Its F2P soon, B2P is just F2P with a initial up front price (more explained later).. To keep going it will need people to buy from the shop and for people to want to buy from the shop it will need to have items that are wanted. Items that are wanted are P2W, cosmetics only go so far.

Not only that but the community will drop in quality. The arguments that say it wont are rubbish. For example, I know 11 people who came to play at the release of this game. 11 Quit. 9 of those hate TES and just wanted to play because they wanted to see what it was like. 11 of those say they will come back to "mess around". 11 of those will bring back the "This game sucks so we will be rude to everyone for fun mentality".

This makes me terribly sad, I am such a big fan of TES that I even have a tattoo artist drawing up a morrowind related sleeve for me. I wanted this game to go well, sadly it has not and will degrade fast.

HOWEVER, if the game does not go to P2W and the people who hate the game who just come back out of boredom don't ruin the community I will be pleasantly surprised. I just wont be holding my breathe...

starkerealm · February 2015

I have a suspicion...

Okay, at sub-vet levels an XP booster isn't pay to win for one simple reason: you out level content anyway. So if you are using boosters you'll end up in a situation where you're actually too high to gain further XP off the content you're doing, and won't be getting drops. For a net loss. Or, you know, pay to lose.

At vet levels a 10% XP gain is appreciable, but a temporary boost is... well, immaterial in the long term. If you're using rings of mara then that could be a real modifier after awhile. But for an XP booster potion, you're going to be paying real money to work towards a .1% to .3% boost. Which, also not really the definition of pay to win.

Jice · February 2015

Can someone please explain to me the 'win' part of this pay to win scheme?

What do they win? Does the potion put them at the top of Ophidian Sanctum leader boards?

Does it make them Emperor?

Does it give them the ability to craft Legendaries all day long and never run out of resources?

Is the EXP potion going to clear them to round 10 in VET DSA right away?

What's the fear here? So far the only thing I see that counts as winning is 'Hey you can now do all the stuff I can but didn't have to spend as much time getting there!'

It's convenience, that's it, since what I consider winning is more than just getting max level and an extra .1% magic damage every 3.8 hours instead of every 4.

If money made people better players this would matter, but it doesn't, so it doesn't.

crislevin · February 2015

Froggmann5 wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

This game has gazillion of vr14s, I have zero problem if somebody want to buy a vr 14 toon.

You're completely killing any and all PVE content by doing this. Who would want to spend weeks training an account to VR1, when they could buy a VR14 and skip all questing content?

You're essentially advocating for a, "Want to complete the game? Only 30$!" card.

This p2w is as old as d2 afaik. I would be surprised if it's not happening already on eso in the black market.

And no, it won't be just $30. If it takes 5 24 hr days to get there, the fair price will be at least $10/hr. It you worry many people will do this, don't, it won't be cheap.

Hortator Mopa · February 2015

Jice wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me the 'win' part of this pay to win scheme?

What do they win? Does the potion put them at the top of Ophidian Sanctum leader boards?

Does it make them Emperor?

Does it give them the ability to craft Legendaries all day long and never run out of resources?

Is the EXP potion going to clear them to round 10 in VET DSA right away?

What's the fear here? So far the only thing I see that counts as winning is 'Hey you can now do all the stuff I can but didn't have to spend as much time getting there!'

It's convenience, that's it, since what I consider winning is more than just getting max level and an extra .1% magic damage every 3.8 hours instead of every 4.

If money made people better players this would matter, but it doesn't, so it doesn't.

Are you not thinking at all when you talk?

"since what I consider winning" - Jice

So if someone plays the game to get max level first / fast as possible and in their mind that is a "win" it just does not mater because to YOU its not a win?

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Hey, wanna know the main reason this isn't pay to win?

The XP potions in the Crown Store, can be bought with in-game gold.

The ring of mara requires you to be grouped with it's counterpart in order to get the bonus.

If you continue to subscribe, you're paying money for a game that is now free. You should be getting some extra bang for your buck.

You're welcome

/thread

so they came back and said " we are taking back the part about in game gold and re thinking that idea entirely" so read next time before you start bashing on the OP. your welcome

When did they say this? Link if you can please, I'd like to read it for myself. Thanks!

And I wasn't bashing the OP, just my perception of his misconception.

So if they've gone on record saying they're not going to allow the XP potions to be bought for in-game currency and have stated they're going back to the drawing board on it, I would like to see when and where they stated this, please.

Xexpo · February 2015

Xp boosts are not "pay to win".

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

Didn't read any of the replies because I just know that it will be the same as other threads...

To the OP:

I agree, lets be honest though.. This game is going to crash and turn bad. Its just a question of how long it will take. Its F2P soon, B2P is just F2P with a initial up front price (more explained later).. To keep going it will need people to buy from the shop and for people to want to buy from the shop it will need to have items that are wanted. Items that are wanted are P2W, cosmetics only go so far.

Not only that but the community will drop in quality. The arguments that say it wont are rubbish. *i-know-trolls*

This makes me terribly sad, I am such a big fan of TES that I even have a tattoo artist drawing up a morrowind related sleeve for me. I wanted this game to go well, sadly it has not and will degrade fast.

HOWEVER, if the game does not go to P2W and the people who hate the game who just come back out of boredom don't ruin the community I will be pleasantly surprised. I just wont be holding my breathe...

It must be nice to know everything.

Hortator Mopa · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Hey, wanna know the main reason this isn't pay to win?

The XP potions in the Crown Store, can be bought with in-game gold.

The ring of mara requires you to be grouped with it's counterpart in order to get the bonus.

If you continue to subscribe, you're paying money for a game that is now free. You should be getting some extra bang for your buck.

You're welcome

/thread

so they came back and said " we are taking back the part about in game gold and re thinking that idea entirely" so read next time before you start bashing on the OP. your welcome

When did they say this? Link if you can please, I'd like to read it for myself. Thanks!

And I wasn't bashing the OP, just my perception of his misconception.

So if they've gone on record saying they're not going to allow the XP potions to be bought for in-game currency and have stated they're going back to the drawing board on it, I would like to see when and where they stated this, please.

LOL when would they ever want to let it happen by in game gold?!

In that logic they would like to make their major source of income be competitive with a in game currency which as it stands is easy to obtain 1,000,000 gold + easily.

Items will not be sold for gold if thats what you are saying.
"/thread" after saying that is lolable.

Jice · February 2015

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

Are you not thinking at all when you talk?

Don't be a ***.

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

So if someone plays the game to get max level first / fast as possible and in their mind that is a "win" it just does not mater because to YOU its not a win?

That's a personal goal and therefore doesn't matter how fast or slow they do it, the game doesn't hold leader boards for 'fastest to vr14' so isn't a recognised achievement. Completing Vet DSA is. You're trying to split hairs and it isn't working. If that's the part of my statement you feel you needed to make point of then you haven't really got the gist of what I was saying.

The main point is that Experience /= Skill. Until they make a potion that can make people move out of the red while they drool on the keyboard, they haven't paid to win, just paid to save time.

AshySamurai · February 2015

IMO the only way to solve it is to make XP bonus not stackable. You can get only one 10% boost - sub, rings, pots, grouping - your choise (tho I think grouping shouldn't give XP boost).

Hortator Mopa · February 2015

Jice wrote: »

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

Are you not thinking at all when you talk?

Don't be a ***.

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

So if someone plays the game to get max level first / fast as possible and in their mind that is a "win" it just does not mater because to YOU its not a win?

That's a personal goal and therefore doesn't matter how fast or slow they do it, the game doesn't hold leader boards for 'fastest to vr14' so isn't a recognised achievement. Completing Vet DSA is. You're trying to split hairs and it isn't working. If that's the part of my statement you feel you needed to make point of then you haven't really got the gist of what I was saying.

The main point is that Experience /= Skill. Until they make a potion that can make people move out of the red while they drool on the keyboard, they haven't paid to win, just paid to save time.

Having rank 1 on the SO time leader board or the VDSA leader board does not give you a achievement either, yet you act like that would be a p2w situation if it allowed someone to obtain that?

"Win" is subjective to the person. You said getting a rank 1 time is a win.. yet it does not have a achievement so what logic do you use to say that "racing to top level" is any different?

Everything is a personal goal. What YOU see as a win is not the ONLY win. A P2win is any form of accomplishment obtained over the top of someone who did not pay for the same benefits through external currency... Thus explained by OP and shown time and time again by game implementations by ZOS.

I will remain a sub and will buy what ever I want from the shop. I am not being biased.

Tonnopesce · February 2015

MEH!