Why XP Potions are showing a horrific progression towards a Pay to Win mentality.

Froggmann5 · February 2015

Ring of Mara - 10% XP Boost
ESO + - 10 % XP Boost
XP Boosting Potions - 10 XP Boost.

We already have a paid for 30% Boost in XP coming up, with nothing showing Zenimax won't stop this any time soon.

This all applies to Champion points as well. I wouldn't be bothered by this, except to get the 30% Increase in XP gain, you have to pay real life money for all of these methods. That, and there is absolutely no way to get them outside of paying out of pocket to Zenimax.

Inb4 "That's not very much."

You can't say that, because now, it affects champion points as well. Which means, that Within the first month of release, those that pay for these boosts will be at least two weeks ahead in acquisition of Champion Points, and total XP earned.

The only way this is reparable is if you can acquire the Ring of Mara and create the XP Potions in game yourselves as players. The XP potions being a high-high level potion, and them be trade-able. Rings of Mara that were not gotten during the Pre-Order, should be allowed in the game at a lower quality with a cool down.

I wonder when we'll have double XP Potions...

Metrobius · February 2015

In my opinion, this is only p2w to content locusts who rush to max level and try to min max for an advantage. After all, they are the only ones who would feel disadvanted if they had to compete against players who are more progessed than they are. Since I have no sympathy for that type of player, I have no problem with the XP pots.

Froggmann5 · February 2015

Metrobius wrote: »

In my opinion, this is only p2w to content locusts who rush to max level and try to min max for an advantage. After all, they are the only ones who would feel disadvanted if they had to compete against players who are more progessed than they are. Since I have no sympathy for that type of player, I have no problem with the XP pots.

My Main point is that Zenimax is willing to sacrifice some of the integrity of the game, in the name of Convenience. This sets a bad precedence, and makes me worry about what else Zenimax will sacrifice in order to make the game more, "Convenient".

Deheart · February 2015

When you have experience boosters, that affect your progression speed, which then makes it easier to do your quests since you leveled up faster, then that is Pay To Win.

Even if it is only a small part of the game that is affected, you can still pay money to make it easier to level.

But as far as I can tell everything else is just cosmetic though, hopefully.......

Froggmann5 · February 2015

Deheart wrote: »

When you have experience boosters, that affect your progression speed, which then makes it easier to do your quests since you leveled up faster, then that is Pay To Win.

Even if it is only a small part of the game that is affected, you can still pay money to make it easier to level.

But as far as I can tell everything else is just cosmetic though, hopefully.......

I completely agree.

I just hope they have the option to at least make the XP Booster Potions (I don't know if they're still potions?) craftable by players with ingredients that have the rarity as nirncrux. This would be a good balance. How is this a "Convenience" Item if it mimics nothing in the game currently? It's nothing but a straight upgrade, and Zenimax cannot deny this.

crislevin · February 2015

I never felt p2w being a problem.

You either pay to win, or play to win. Play takes time, time is money, so imho, there is no difference.

Froggmann5 · February 2015

crislevin wrote: »

I never felt p2w being a problem.

You either pay to win, or play to win. Play takes time, time is money, so imho, there is no difference.

So, theoretically, you would be okay with Zenimax handing out VR14 Accounts in order to "Save Time" ? This is a far out there statement, but nonetheless the same.

Zenimax is using small things, only one XP boost at a time, like this to weasel more of these into the game over time. It's a bad trend that we need to stop before it even begins.

Tonturri · February 2015

*Ahem*

Yes, it's paying for an in-game advantage to another player. Can't really deny that.

However, I consoled myself with the knowledge that the more exp you had (and the more CP you had) the less valuable each following exp/cp/whatever became. If someone wants to pay 60(?) for an imperial edition, 15 for a sub and then however much an exp potion costs, far be it from me to loudly complain about it.

If it ever goes higher though I'm going to kick up a fuss, that's a little too much. Also, isn't a Ring of Mara an imperial edition thing that you can only use with one other character? Sure some can get to 30% increased exp, but I think a great many have already used it and their partner left or something. Dunno, seems a little flawed to include it in the figgurings.

Should we try to keep zos from tripping over their feet and tumbling down the slope or whatever, yes. I really don't care that someone is gaining exp at a 20% faster rate than me, though.

LunaRae · February 2015

Froggmann5 wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

I never felt p2w being a problem.

You either pay to win, or play to win. Play takes time, time is money, so imho, there is no difference.

So, theoretically, you would be okay with Zenimax handing out VR14 Accounts in order to "Save Time" ? This is a far out there statement, but nonetheless the same.

Zenimax is using small things, only one XP boost at a time, like this to weasel more of these into the game over time. It's a bad trend that we need to stop before it even begins.

WoW hands out level boosts for 60$ ... why does it matter if someone gets a V14 character for $$$ ??? They don't receive an in-game advantage over someone who took the time to level a character in game. And they would still need to level up abilities, which is timely.

I'm OK with XP boosts assuming they've tested how fast someone can theoretically get to MAX CP using every XP Boost available. Better not see people in Cyro after 2 months with MAX CP wrecking face.

crislevin · February 2015

Froggmann5 wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

I never felt p2w being a problem.

You either pay to win, or play to win. Play takes time, time is money, so imho, there is no difference.

So, theoretically, you would be okay with Zenimax handing out VR14 Accounts in order to "Save Time" ? This is a far out there statement, but nonetheless the same.

Zenimax is using small things, only one XP boost at a time, like this to weasel more of these into the game over time. It's a bad trend that we need to stop before it even begins.

This game has gazillion of vr14s, I have zero problem if somebody want to buy a vr 14 toon.

Froggmann5 · February 2015

LunaRae wrote: »

WoW hands out level boosts for 60$ ... why does it matter if someone gets a V14 character for $$$ ??? They don't receive an in-game advantage over someone who took the time to level a character in game. And they would still need to level up abilities, which is timely.

I'm OK with XP boosts assuming they've tested how fast someone can theoretically get to MAX CP using every XP Boost available. Better not see people in Cyro after 2 months with MAX CP wrecking face.

You're saying, that it's completely okay to pay for a max level account? Skipping months of content and time. That completely destroys any PVE and quest content, and would shard the community between the rich and the poor.

Froggmann5 · February 2015

crislevin wrote: »

This game has gazillion of vr14s, I have zero problem if somebody want to buy a vr 14 toon.

You're completely killing any and all PVE content by doing this. Who would want to spend weeks training an account to VR1, when they could buy a VR14 and skip all questing content?

You're essentially advocating for a, "Want to complete the game? Only 30$!" card.

zward887_ESO · February 2015

for people who only want to pvp, I could see a 'buy VR14' being just fine. For a great many people, anything that is not endgame is just a grind until you can get to endgame.

I see no problem with people buying VR14 toons. Now buying CPs is another story... that's a true power differential between players. It is easy to justify it as 'convenience' but it does seem dangerously close to P2W to me...

Also, have they confirmed XP pots are only 10%? I've not seen anything on it and would be surprised if its so low... Something closer to 30% seems more appropriate to me for a temporary buff.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · February 2015

Actually its,

Teamup bonus - 10% XP Boost (you get it for grouping together in two's)
Ring of Mara - 10% XP Boost (you and your partner)
ESO + - 10 % XP Boost (if you are both subbed)
XP Boosting Potions - 10% XP Boost. (if that will be the boost amount)

So your looking at a 40% XP Boost if you have all these things

Froggmann5 · February 2015

zward887_ESO wrote: »

for people who only want to pvp, I could see a 'buy VR14' being just fine. For a great many people, anything that is not endgame is just a grind until you can get to endgame.

I see no problem with people buying VR14 toons. Now buying CPs is another story... that's a true power differential between players. It is easy to justify it as 'convenience' but it does seem dangerously close to P2W to me...

Also, have they confirmed XP pots are only 10%? I've not seen anything on it and would be surprised if its so low... Something closer to 30% seems more appropriate to me for a temporary buff.

> Now buying CPs is another story... that's a true power differential between players.

That's the thing, these XP Boosts DO affect CP. If you were to buy a fully leveled VR14 toon, there's no doubt it would come with a full set of Champion Points as well.

Cazic · February 2015

Call it pay to win or whatever you want. It's an incentive to pay for the ESO plus subscription. A side effect of the initial sub fee becoming optional. We all want zos to make money to better the game so its a good thing in the end.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · February 2015

I don't think this is P2W at all. Other games have similar things and there was never any issues. You want to talk about fair? Okay then. I will play devils advocate. You say people getting all this extra XP will mean more CP for people paying real money and/or spending crowns will give them an advantage, mainly through the CP system. What about people who seem to have no lives and already have max amount of characters at VR14? How can people with normal lives who have MAYBE ONE VR14 character catch up to them? How is this fair? A person with no family or responsibilities should have an advantage over people who have other more important priorities in life than ESO but still enjoy the game when they can?

I think this sounds equally ridiculous but it does have its points. The fact is it would take years to get max CP with or without XP potions. I really think the advantage some of you think is going to be "OP" is not going to be overwhelming at all. I have played PTS and the diminishing returns from each point you put into a particular champion passive will not be enough to give an edge to a player over another. It will further to help define your character and help you "play as you want" if anything. All the points in the world will not save you against a good player. The game is still based on skill. Heck, even gear in the game should make this obvious. Plenty of people with decked out gear in all gold can still lose to a player in gear that isn't as good because it comes down to how well a person plays.

The day they start selling gear and such that is equal to the best gear in the game or better is the day I will call ESO P2W. Until then, stop this useless banter.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

I assume they were allowed because there will be a demographic of players keen to rush to end game when the model shifts and catch up with people who are already there.

Hardly a precursor to the end of times.

Personally I prefer the journey as much as the destination and dont see a point to rushing through a game designed around story telling. But these days people are too impatient to use their own dinner plates let alone wait for some exp. So it'll sell well, and make us other slow pokes lots of content. Not so bad lol.

firstdecan · February 2015

Froggmann5 wrote: »

LunaRae wrote: »

WoW hands out level boosts for 60$ ... why does it matter if someone gets a V14 character for $$$ ??? They don't receive an in-game advantage over someone who took the time to level a character in game. And they would still need to level up abilities, which is timely.

I'm OK with XP boosts assuming they've tested how fast someone can theoretically get to MAX CP using every XP Boost available. Better not see people in Cyro after 2 months with MAX CP wrecking face.

You're saying, that it's completely okay to pay for a max level account? Skipping months of content and time. That completely destroys any PVE and quest content, and would shard the community between the rich and the poor.

A bit melodramatic, don't you think?

There are many people who don't care about the PvE content or questing, why would you force them into that if all they really want is PvP? And as far as 'sharding the community between the rich and the poor,' there's no basis for that. There will be a minimum of sharding, it's not like anything in the crown store is that expensive.

Gidorick · February 2015

Throw it all in there... Why not?

Sell instant "level upgrades" for 10 bucks a pop.
Sell "Research Inspiration" scrolls that make research go by instantly for 5 bucks each.
Sell "Insta-Kill" potions that kill Everything within a radius in PVE ONLY. Level 1-10 insta-kills it's $5... go up $5 for every 10 levels.

As long as the item doesn't give a player immediate advantage over another player in PVP. In PVE... why not? I'm in PVE to experience the story and if the dude running around me paid to get to the level I'm at, why should I care?

GreySix · February 2015

Meh, once an MMO abandons P2P, they have to get money somehow. So it's reasonable to assume they'll dangle carrots in front of those willing to pay for them.

We don't have to like it ... and I don't, but there it is.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

If it pays for The Dark Brotherhood to come out of hiding in ESO, then they can buy as many as they can carry imo

I'm all ready for the Black Sacrament - Several good candidates from the LOL campaign all ready to go lol xD

Joejudas · February 2015

now that we know cp can be earned with these boosters....and they stack...its more like 40 percent....which is pay2win

Gyudan · February 2015

Froggmann5 wrote: »

Ring of Mara - 10% XP Boost
ESO + - 10 % XP Boost
XP Boosting Potions - 10 XP Boost.

Why is everyone assuming that the XP boost potions will only add 10% XP ?

It reminds me of the crown store potions that everyone assumed would be identical to the ones sold by vendors.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

Dont pay2winners find that it kills the sense of achievement? I mean I can understand they want to rock it out at end game except most of them dont.

Some of the most clueless endgamers I ever met were cash shop buyers

Wreuntzylla · February 2015

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think this is P2W at all. Other games have similar things and there was never any issues. You want to talk about fair? Okay then. I will play devils advocate. You say people getting all this extra XP will mean more CP for people paying real money and/or spending crowns will give them an advantage, mainly through the CP system. What about people who seem to have no lives and already have max amount of characters at VR14? How can people with normal lives who have MAYBE ONE VR14 character catch up to them? How is this fair? A person with no family or responsibilities should have an advantage over people who have other more important priorities in life than ESO but still enjoy the game when they can?

How dare you point out an existing disparity in the game??? You are so rude to even suggest that people who work and pay taxes should be able to spend some of their hard earned income to bridge that disparity. I mean, it's not as if people that play this game 24/7 could possibly fill a job requiring the use of a computer, amirite?

Joejudas · February 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think this is P2W at all. Other games have similar things and there was never any issues. You want to talk about fair? Okay then. I will play devils advocate. You say people getting all this extra XP will mean more CP for people paying real money and/or spending crowns will give them an advantage, mainly through the CP system. What about people who seem to have no lives and already have max amount of characters at VR14? How can people with normal lives who have MAYBE ONE VR14 character catch up to them? How is this fair? A person with no family or responsibilities should have an advantage over people who have other more important priorities in life than ESO but still enjoy the game when they can?

How dare you point out an existing disparity in the game??? You are so rude to even suggest that people who work and pay taxes should be able to spend some of their hard earned income to bridge that disparity. I mean, it's not as if people that play this game 24/7 could possibly fill a job requiring the use of a computer, amirite?

or they could just make the system give a reasonable amount of exp...instead of designing it to make us spend extra money.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

Well in regards to that general idea, just because you come along late doesnt mean you should just be able to instantly side step work. Thats sort of the perk of being rewarded for your time.

We'd have major issues in real life if people could just walk along, fritter some money at something and become as proficient as someone who had spent a life time honing their skill/profession.

Granted this isnt real life. But from certain angles its no less disrespectful to peoples time.

So what if they are VR14 on several characters? They chose to invest the time instead of somewhere else in their lives. They earned it.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Hey, wanna know the main reason this isn't pay to win?

The XP potions in the Crown Store, can be bought with in-game gold.

The ring of mara requires you to be grouped with it's counterpart in order to get the bonus.

If you continue to subscribe, you're paying money for a game that is now free. You should be getting some extra bang for your buck.

You're welcome

/thread

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

The XP potions in the Crown Store, can be bought with in-game gold.

Hmm trying to fathom just how much an Imperial City might cost me in in-game gold if that same system was applied.

Yeah ok. I cant even afford pots lol

Wreuntzylla · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think this is P2W at all. Other games have similar things and there was never any issues. You want to talk about fair? Okay then. I will play devils advocate. You say people getting all this extra XP will mean more CP for people paying real money and/or spending crowns will give them an advantage, mainly through the CP system. What about people who seem to have no lives and already have max amount of characters at VR14? How can people with normal lives who have MAYBE ONE VR14 character catch up to them? How is this fair? A person with no family or responsibilities should have an advantage over people who have other more important priorities in life than ESO but still enjoy the game when they can?

How dare you point out an existing disparity in the game??? You are so rude to even suggest that people who work and pay taxes should be able to spend some of their hard earned income to bridge that disparity. I mean, it's not as if people that play this game 24/7 could possibly fill a job requiring the use of a computer, amirite?

or they could just make the system give a reasonable amount of exp...instead of designing it to make us spend extra money.

Uh... At what experience amount will people who can play all day not have a leveling speed advantage over people who can't?