Nirnhoned weapon has the old sharpened bug. Ignore 100% of spell resists......

glavius · February 2015

Please fix and not in 6 months :-)

Derra · February 2015

^ So much this.

Edit: On a sidenote: Is anyone under the impression that magica dmg against medium to high resist (15 to 30k resis) is completely out of line?
I´m getting sth. like 80% dmg reduction when comparing tooltip to the actual hit.

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

Where have you tested this? PvE or PvP? Cause there are specific CP points that further reduce the incoming damage of particular types. I know where I will be putting my points into

glavius · February 2015

Nope. Resists were actually not that great when me and Jovre tested yesterday. Also, you got to remember pvp dmg is reduced by 20%. Tooltip value of spell used in tests: 5257.
In my test I had the light armor spell penetration, sharpened weapon and apprentice mundus. (same as I use on live)
Base dmg against no resist target 4206.
Damage against heavy armor set (7 hvy pieces all reinforced, 4 purple, 3 gold, no shield) 3595.
Damage against same heavy armor set with major spell resist buff on top 3258.

So basically if you use the right gear, even a serious resist stacker will mitigate about 23% of your damage only. Abit more if he goes all in and uses shield and set items with extra resists.

I haven't tested against the resists in champ line, those might be calculated different for all I know.

A few other things we tested:

Shields take more damage than a hit against a no resist target. Hits on shield were around 4500.
You can't crit a shield for purposes of damage, but you can proc surge against it.

And if you don't use light armor penetration, sharpened and apprentice, a heavy armor user can get around 45-50% mitigation.

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

glavius wrote: »

Nope. Resists were actually not that great when me and Jovre tested yesterday. Also, you got to remember pvp dmg is reduced by 20%. Tooltip value of spell used in tests: 5257.
In my test I had the light armor spell penetration, sharpened weapon and apprentice mundus. (same as I use on live)
Base dmg against no resist target 4206.
Damage against heavy armor set (7 hvy pieces all reinforced, 4 purple, 3 gold, no shield) 3595.
Damage against same heavy armor set with major spell resist buff on top 3258.

So basically if you use the right gear, even a serious resist stacker will mitigate about 23% of your damage only. Abit more if he goes all in and uses shield and set items with extra resists.

I haven't tested against the resists in champ line, those might be calculated different for all I know.

A few other things we tested:

Shields take more damage than a hit against a no resist target. Hits on shield were around 4500.
You can't crit a shield for purposes of damage, but you can proc surge against it.

And if you don't use light armor penetration, sharpened and apprentice, a heavy armor user can get around 45-50% mitigation.

Whaaaaat? So that means shields retain their durability fine since critical hits are not registered as actual damage on them. So the only nerf is the -15% to their values in PvP.

So much for all the whining and crying before testing. Thanks a lot for the tests man. Your post was very insightful.

Derra · February 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Where have you tested this? PvE or PvP? Cause there are specific CP points that further reduce the incoming damage of particular types. I know where I will be putting my points into

Was tested in pvp. I know that those passives exist - they would have to be additive to reach mitigation of 80%+ though (personally think they are broken bc the protection ones offer a higher benefit than offensive ones - also magic dmg reduce is higher than physical).

Still i´m personally under the impression that a dmg mitigation of over 80% should not be possible. Only thing this will lead to is magica builds being completely abandoned (as it is not possible to reach such mitigation against physical dmg - shame be he who thinks evil of it).

olsborg · February 2015

Any magicka user should have atleast SOME spell penetration. Or your damage will be insanely weak vs high resist targets. You wont notice much difference against light armor wearers, but I reckon those will be far and few between. -Jovre.

ToRelax · February 2015

I did notice this bug earlier and was under the impression it was fixed with 1.63. Now I have to test again, Nirnhoned is such a fine trait on it's own and I don't want magicka abilities be balanced around this bug again.

glavius · February 2015

So did a few more tests today. Nirnhoned weapon so targets 30k spell resists had no effect. Nord+25% magic resist from champ line+20% reduce dmg from pvp. My 5219 tooltip spell went down to 2976. Champ spell penetration did nothing to help against the 25% resist from champ line. Damage with 23 points in champ spell penetration and sharpened staff/apprentice/light armor penetration was 2553.
Basically the 25% from champ line matter more than anything else you can stack......

Derra · February 2015

glavius wrote: »

So did a few more tests today. Nirnhoned weapon so targets 30k spell resists had no effect. Nord+25% magic resist from champ line+20% reduce dmg from pvp. My 5219 tooltip spell went down to 2976. Champ spell penetration did nothing to help against the 25% resist from champ line. Damage with 23 points in champ spell penetration and sharpened staff/apprentice/light armor penetration was 2553.
Basically the 25% from champ line matter more than anything else you can stack......

Nice so the champ spell penetration is working with your regular spell penetration whereas the spell dmg reduction passive is working independent and can not be reduced in any way (most likely additive out of the rest of the dmg equation)?

That would explain the problems i´ve had.

ToRelax · February 2015

glavius wrote: »

So did a few more tests today. Nirnhoned weapon so targets 30k spell resists had no effect. Nord+25% magic resist from champ line+20% reduce dmg from pvp. My 5219 tooltip spell went down to 2976. Champ spell penetration did nothing to help against the 25% resist from champ line. Damage with 23 points in champ spell penetration and sharpened staff/apprentice/light armor penetration was 2553.
Basically the 25% from champ line matter more than anything else you can stack......

Yes, CS spell pen is pretty much worthless. Apprentice blew it away in my tests in 1.61 actually.

glavius · February 2015

Apparently the 25% spell resist you can get from champ line works for shields too. So your shields get hit for 25% less if you take that....

Derra · February 2015

glavius wrote: »

Apparently the 25% spell resist you can get from champ line works for shields too. So your shields get hit for 25% less if you take that....

...

Nice, huh?

glavius · February 2015

quick test with a bow. poison effect from poison arrow went from 2155 delve down to 600 actual value against a maxed out champ character in hvy armor.

Yuke · February 2015

Somethings horrible wrong with the spelldmg mitigation. Yesterday i was fighting a magicka nb (5la) with my magicka DK build (5la) and my whip was only doing 2999 Damage with Entropy up and Weakness to Element applied.

Both of us had maxed out CPs.

Dunno if Glavius test results covers my observation, but it makes magicka builds pretty useless IMHO.

Soulac · February 2015

Yuke wrote: »

Somethings horrible wrong with the spelldmg mitigation. Yesterday i was fighting a magicka nb (5la) with my magicka DK build (5la) and my whip was only doing 2999 Damage with Entropy up and Weakness to Element applied.

Both of us had maxed out CPs.

Dunno if Glavius test results covers my observation, but it makes magicka builds pretty useless IMHO.

Better than 1.6k - 3k Grim focus buffed with Mage Guild Passive and Entropy, max. CP, 40k Magicka and >2.8k Spelldmg.
That's a joke. (Concealed hits at least for 4k..)

glavius · February 2015

Seems the champ dmg bonuses and resists are applied before all other factors. So basically -25% dmg taken from having the resist passive maxed, and +25% dmg from having the dmg passive maxed. total of -6% dmg. 1*0,75*1,25=0,94.

glavius · February 2015

Makes focusing on one damage type if at all possible very important unless you get 600+ champ points.

Derra · February 2015

Nice for all classes that can actually do that. Oh how i love my sorc with half elemental half magic dmg.

glavius · February 2015

Ohh and just noticed there is no passive to reduce physical dmg 25%. However you also can't really get much physical penetration, so that might cancel eachother out.

Derra · February 2015

Are you really sure though they just cancel each other out?

If % dmg is applied withing the normal dmg modifiers (changing tooltip suggesting that) it will get reduced by champion passive before and then by spell resist - this would lead to a far wider gap in the overall usefulness of %increaseddmg and %decreaseddmg (than the 6% you suggested).

Edit: Atleast with the cyrodiil buff for another 20% dmg reduction.

Should it work this way it would explain why physical dmg on pts is currently VASTLY superior to any form of elemental or magic dmg.

Screw everything i wrote. Problem is most likely cyrodiil buff being additive with champ passive leading to a 45% flat dmg decrease for magic and elemental / poison dmg before any resists are factored in.
Add heavy armor and you see around 75% dmg reduction.

Still does not reflect 100% of what my dmg suggested on pts (that was above 80% dmg mitigation compared to tooltip) but its pretty close.

glavius · February 2015

When using a nirnhoned staff yes, they almost cancelled eachother out. (-6% overall difference)
However, if armor and spell resists are factored in, I'm unsure what result is.

ToRelax · February 2015

I tested Nirnhoned in PvE again and their certainly nothing changed with last patch. I'll test the champion system more when I can later, not as difficult to do as in 1.61 now.
I suspect a dmg decrease with it. Wich I think would mean both nirnhoned and how they calculate dmg With the CS are broken.

edit: typo

glavius · February 2015

Also just tested surge heal from crit. Doesn't work vs. a blocking target.

Armitas · February 2015

Traits
Jewelry with the Healthy trait now gives slightly more health.

Increased the value of the Nirnhoned Trait so it is 50% stronger than the Reinforced Trait for armor.

Could this have accidentally been applied to the nirnhoned trait for weapons as well as armor?

glavius · February 2015

nah it ignores all resists without exception, atleast from my testing.
Also tooltip value is still the same.