See, Zenimax? It CAN be done.....

dharbert · February 2015

From the 1.6.3 patch notes:

Reduced all damage shields cast in Cyrodiil by 15%. This will not affect damage shields outside of Cyrodiil.

It IS possible to adjust skills, passives, and sets between Cyrodiil and the PvE zones. You just did it. So why do you keep nerfing and adjusting skills and sets across the board because of PvP whines?

You CAN make skills, passives, and set bonuses different between Cyrodiil and the PvE zones.

Kevinmon · February 2015

They just figured out how to do it in the code yesterday though. Give them a break.

Valen_Byte · February 2015

Great observation! I missed it when I read the patch notes. I have been saying for almost a year now, that they need to leave PVE alone when adjusting for PVP. Now we know for a fact that they can do it. It also reinforces the fact that they do not listen to feedback. They are making the game they want to make, not the game that we want to play.

Folkb · February 2015

ugh, great now they're separating abilities. Games that do that just create a bigger mess later as they keep on piling up the abilities that are different from PVE to PVP.

Lazy way out IMO.

MSG1000 · February 2015

While I wouldn't have been as sarcastic I do think it's silly when developers become obsessed with both PVE and PVP stuff being the same. They are different environments, things will just work differently.

Diablo 3 devs gave up on a balanced PVP because they couldn't get it to work with having abilities be the same as the normal game.

I get irritated in Halo when the reserve ammo for a lot of weapons is the same in SP as the MP because usually the weapons become too useless for dealing with AI enemies because they don't hold enough ammo in reserve.

I understand they don't want to confuse the player but stuff like this, an across the board change to something everyone can use is simple. Individual class changes I could see becoming too complex to follow.

This game has an easier time with it IMO because the number (and sometimes stats) of enemies and allies can be around the same so stuff can still work in either. The major differences come from players making different decisions than AI as well as having their own unique skills and abilities.

Valen_Byte · February 2015

Folkd wrote: »

ugh, great now they're separating abilities. Games that do that just create a bigger mess later as they keep on piling up the abilities that are different from PVE to PVP.

Lazy way out IMO.

PVE and PVP are played completely differently. The builds are completely different. Therefore, they should be balanced separately. The lazy way, is to keep them the same. Obviously it would be more work to adjust PVE and PVP separately.

Froggmann5 · February 2015

Folkd wrote: »

ugh, great now they're separating abilities. Games that do that just create a bigger mess later as they keep on piling up the abilities that are different from PVE to PVP.

Lazy way out IMO.

And what's your solution ?

Until you come up with a better one, you're complaining about nothing.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Gyudan · February 2015

I'd like to see the 50% increased cost of Bolt Escape after first cast apply only to PVP.

Jitterbug · February 2015

maybe they dont want us to be gods in pve either

radiostar · February 2015

If the eventual plan is to have the player scale to content down the line, it seems to make sense.

Folkb · February 2015

Froggmann5 wrote: »

Folkd wrote: »

ugh, great now they're separating abilities. Games that do that just create a bigger mess later as they keep on piling up the abilities that are different from PVE to PVP.

Lazy way out IMO.

And what's your solution?

Until you come up with a better one, you're complaining about nothing.

Right off the bat they could try lowering damage in some encounters. I'm sure there are more options. Anyway games that do this always end up going back after the change of PVE to PVP becomes so drastic it becomes messy to even think about and then they're going to end up right in the same spot they are now.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Panda244 · February 2015

So lets see. Igneous Shield on live gives me a 950 damage shield exactly. Of course the following is based on the x10 speculation which we all know is a lie

950x10 = 9500

15% of 9500 = 1425

9500 - 1425 = 8075

Average Health Pool = 25,000

8075 = 32.3% of 25,000

This won't fix anything, at all, as you can still stack Harness Magicka and Hardened Armor as a Dragonknight probably granting you at least another 20-30% damage shield. Then there's healing ward for some serious lulz. Shield stacking has never been a problem imho but you can't fix it doing this, it's something, but it's not going to help....

Psychobunni · February 2015

THIS! is wonderful!!
I would like to hope that in some small way they have been listening to the PVE players who have dealt with nerf after nerf over PVP.....and it will be expanded to other skills down the line.

Valen_Byte wrote: »

PVE and PVP are played completely differently. The builds are completely different. Therefore, they should be balanced separately. The lazy way, is to keep them the same. Obviously it would be more work to adjust PVE and PVP separately.

^^ and THIS...Anyone that takes PVP seriously is built completely different from anyone that takes PVE seriously. Having the skills equal hurts more than helps.

Panda244 · February 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

THIS! is wonderful!!
I would like to hope that in some small way they have been listening to the PVE players who have dealt with nerf after nerf over PVP.....and it will be expanded to other skills down the line.

Valen_Byte wrote: »

PVE and PVP are played completely differently. The builds are completely different. Therefore, they should be balanced separately. The lazy way, is to keep them the same. Obviously it would be more work to adjust PVE and PVP separately.

^^ and THIS...Anyone that takes PVP seriously is built completely different from anyone that takes PVE seriously. Having the skills equal hurts more than helps.

It's a start, but my PvP build is actually capable of soloing a lot of the veteran dungeons up until the last boss, because it's built to keep me alive, I have like 2.4k Health outside Cyrodiil but because of the way it's set up it's stronger than some staff wielding DK, just not as deepsful.

wafcatb14_ESO · February 2015

It`s nothing new or unheard of , Everquest wayyy back in 2000 15 years ago had spells, and melee ablities work different in pvp than they did in pve .

pve spells and ablities were unchanged, but in pvp they did less damage. or some like charm, didn`t work. fear stuned you instead of making you run uncontrolable off a cliff etc.

If they could figure it out 15 years ago surely game Developers today can as well.

DeLindsay · February 2015

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

It`s nothing new or unheard of , Everquest wayyy back in 2000 15 years ago had spells, and melee ablities work different in pvp than they did in pve .

pve spells and ablities were unchanged, but in pvp they did less damage. or some like charm, didn`t work. fear stuned you instead of making you run uncontrolable off a cliff etc.

If they could figure it out 15 years ago surely game Developers today can as well.

It's nothing more than efficiency for a for-profit Company. It's cheaper to spend the coding time to make 1 ability do 1 thing instead of 1 thing in 2 situations, that or laziness. We all know it's possible and has been possible to separate PvE from PvP so why do MOST MMO's today still balance around PvP which ends up screwing PvE? He who can properly answer that question gets a cookie.

Soulshine · February 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

It`s nothing new or unheard of , Everquest wayyy back in 2000 15 years ago had spells, and melee ablities work different in pvp than they did in pve .

pve spells and ablities were unchanged, but in pvp they did less damage. or some like charm, didn`t work. fear stuned you instead of making you run uncontrolable off a cliff etc.

If they could figure it out 15 years ago surely game Developers today can as well.

It's nothing more than efficiency for a for-profit Company. It's cheaper to spend the coding time to make 1 ability do 1 thing instead of 1 thing in 2 situations, that or laziness. We all know it's possible and has been possible to separate PvE from PvP so why do MOST MMO's today still balance around PvP which ends up screwing PvE? He who can properly answer that question gets a cookie.

Personally I have always felt the reason is because few developers want to give up the potential to grab a lion's share of the market by making a PvP only or conversely PvE only game, which is in my book the biggest problem.

These types of gameplay are simply completely different animals and nether the twain shall meet, yet developers keep insisting on making both of these elements in one game. Not a good recipe and I think a large reason why this genre on the whole is failing.

Give me a totally PvP focused game without traditional PvE, or the other way around, and provide the players richly layered experiences that do not have to be compromised for the sake of the other, and I think you would have a very successful game over the long term, even if more modest in profits. How much is enough anyway?

PlagueMonk · February 2015

Please, this is nothing more than drop in the bucket,making the damage shield users work just a bit harder (15% harder). Chances are you might eventually even erode their resources but not fast enough.

Instead of applying a band-aid to it they actually need to FIX shield stacking instead.

Atarax · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

From the 1.6.3 patch notes:
Reduced all damage shields cast in Cyrodiil by 15%. This will not affect damage shields outside of Cyrodiil.

It IS possible to adjust skills, passives, and sets between Cyrodiil and the PvE zones. You just did it. So why do you keep nerfing and adjusting skills and sets across the board because of PvP whines?

You CAN make skills, passives, and set bonuses different between Cyrodiil and the PvE zones.

Seems like a stopgap and the system should be able to be designed such that this kind of thing isn't needed. It's a complex interaction, sure, but I think they can approach this in other ways.

Novesette · February 2015

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Please, this is nothing more than drop in the bucket,making the damage shield users work just a bit harder (15% harder). Chances are you might eventually even erode their resources but not fast enough.

Instead of applying a band-aid to it they actually need to FIX shield stacking instead.

The excitement in this thread isn't about fixing issues in PvP (the PvE focused people in this thread likely don't care much about what happens in Cyrodiil), the excitement is about the potential that ZOS will finally stop screwing with what should be relatively stable skills and builds because of balance issues in a PvP environment that will likely never be stable. I hope this practice is extended and continues.

Samadhi · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

...
It IS possible to adjust skills, passives, and sets between Cyrodiil and the PvE zones. You just did it. ...

They also did it a while ago when nerfing the damage of Sneak Attacks in Cyrodiil while leaving PvE unaffected.