A Question about Cross Faction and it's Future(or lack thereof) in Tamriel Unlimited

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

This was a post I made in another thread, then after contemplating it for a bit I decided to attempt to drum up a response from anyone with a @ZOS_ in their name.

There was an article on Massively, a good long while before launch, an interview with Paul Sage, a simple Q&A about the game. And I think it might have been the very first misunderstanding/misinterpretation.

May 19th 2013:

By Richie Procopio

Richie Procopio - Massively wrote:

While a three-alliance system works perfectly for ZeniMax's PvP plans, I was skeptical about its impact on other areas of the game. Part of the reason the megaserver technology was designed is to eliminate issues that always creep up during MMO launches with groups of friends ending up on different servers. Having three separate alliances (each with three different races) shifts the problem from needing to coordinate server choice to which faction are your friends going to be.

I was curious to hear Sage's take on the impact of three-way PvP, and he agreed that the studio had to make some concessions in order for players to feel a certain allegiance to their faction. We were told during an open Q&A session that communication across factions won't be permitted. At this point, I started to get nervous about a possible design misstep because splitting your playerbase into thirds can be detrimental when you're trying to get a group together for any cooperative activity, such as a dungeon run.

Sage assuaged most of my fears, however, when he mentioned that once you hit level 50 and decide to play in another alliance's areas, you'll be able to play with friends IN that faction. So at the endgame, things begin to open up and you can group up, chat, and run dungeons with players of other factions. The one area where things remain separate is, of course, the Alliance War in Cyrodiil.

Bolded the relevant area.

Note how the Great and Powerful Sage states (though not a direct quote) that once you hit level 50 and decide to play in another alliance's area, you'll be able to play with friends IN that faction. NOT OF THAT FACTION.

Did Procopio, like the rest of his readers, fall victim to a cleverly worded response that allowed them to infer something about the game that was incorrect?

I sure as hell thought I'd be able to quest and group with people from other factions after lvl 50 before the game came out. After launch and reaching 50, however, it was a much different story.

Here's the whole article for those interested: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/19/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-paul-sage/

My question to the @ZOS_Dudes_n_Dudettes:

Was this ever a thing? Or was it just a misunderstanding on the part of the interviewer?

Is it even possible? There were some rumors as to whether or not Wrothgar would be cross-faction capable (of which I may or may not have had a hand in spreading, wishful thinking I suppose) - is this the case or are this rumors completely unfounded?

DISCLAIMER: Forgive the bitter undertone, I love this game, I love it's potential.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ @ZOS_JasonLeavey‌ @ZOS_PaulSage‌

Can you put this to bed for us please?

I've tried time and time again to get this question in on ESO Live through the Twitch chat but no dice.

Nazon_Katts · February 2015

The PvE seperation doesn't make sense, anyways. Not for the feel of allegiance - since the ability to play any race in any faction already diluted it from the start and playing through Cadwells Silver and Gold at the end took the rest of it - nor from a grouping design perspective, as we've run multiple times into occasions were the player pool was and still is too small to reliably tackle content.

If I had to make an educated guess, I'd think the reason we haven't seen cross-faction play is yet again their database and how it interacts with the game engine. It's probably pretty tough to implement, since I got more and more the feeling, they've created a beast here, they just can't handle anymore.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Well, here's hoping we can get an answer.

If not here, I'll keep throwing it at the ESO Live AMA things and hoping it sticks.

Nazon_Katts · February 2015

I interpret no answer from ZOS as a negative one. If they cannot answer positively nor get any positivity out of it, they usually don't bother.

Soulshine · February 2015

The way I look at, many of the problems with character progression tied to the leveling process would never have been an issue in the first place if they had invested sufficient time in creating a truly meaningful story that was epic and on scale with the world of Tamriel itself, rather than what are essentially three separate substories all modeled on the same motif.

Part of the reason why VR has been such a failure, especially from a narrative aspect, has little to do with grind and everything to do with the fact that once you hit 50, the real story ends and there is little meaning to your journey into another land since you already know what the outcome is going to be.

The re-cycling the VR system into the Champion System is still not going to change this problem or the volume of complaining about grinding through content that holds little to no meaning. People still have to slug through three zones with the same goal in sight for story progression; the only thing that is different are the faces of the races in your surroundings.

I do not think in retrospect this was accidental but rather a deliberate choice clearly tied to a production budget and the content delivery schedule it was tied to. Citing the game's megaserver and game engine as the sole reason for this decision, is half the story at best.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Well, I mean it's been known for some time now that all Cadwell's Silver/Gold ever was, is a stop-gap measure to buy the Dev's time to put out more content.

Then it became a way for 1 character to experience every quest in the game, which is a nice change of pace when compared to the rest of the games out there.

But now that the arrival of new content will be significantly slowed down after March 17th, it's become a novelty.

Unless you REALLY REALLY LOVE questing, or the stories (which were outstanding, the 1st time around...) your experience loses it's luster SUPER fast.

And since they decimated the grind spots into nonexistence, those of us with alts we want to get to max are stuck questing. And after the Great VP to XP Conversion Debacle of 2014, even that's become more of a chore.

But these new areas, are the lighthouses on the horizon. Hopefully they don't take too long to arrive and hopefully they're cross-faction.

Craglorn should've been cross-faction off the bat. Still should be. They just need to get rid of buffs holding any weight outside of Cyrodiil.

Jando · February 2015

I don't think full cross-faction PVE makes sense in all cases. The 1-50 experience would have to be completely revamped.

That being said, the LFG tool should be cross-faction.

MornaBaine · February 2015

I have been curious about that article as well. It was one of the reasons I bought the game. Since ZOS remains silent on this I am pretty sure the article stated Sage's words correctly. Otherwise they would have called for a retraction/correction from the article writer. It would be interesting if someone could get a hold of the author of the article and ask THEM if they think there's any chance they "misunderstood" Sage.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think full cross-faction PVE makes sense in all cases. The 1-50 experience would have to be completely revamped.

That being said, the LFG tool should be cross-faction.

No, you're not understanding.

The initial interview inferred that AFTER 50 we'd be able to play with players on other factions.

This is the only case I case about, the 1-50 experience doesn't need to be touched at all.

Since this HASN'T been the case, the possibility and easiest way to implement this type of gameplay, is to put it in with the zones that haven't been released yet.

Touching 1-50 would be FAR too large of an undertaking and would inevitably be unnecessary and a waste of time and resources.

Hence why the as-yet-to-be-released zones make the most sense and the best probability of us seeing this concept come to fruition.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

I have been curious about that article as well. It was one of the reasons I bought the game. Since ZOS remains silent on this I am pretty sure the article stated Sage's words correctly. Otherwise they would have called for a retraction/correction from the article writer. It would be interesting if someone could get a hold of the author of the article and ask THEM if they think there's any chance they "misunderstood" Sage.

I have a friend who writes for Massively, I suppose I could bother him to ask Procopio for his input.

Ysne58 · February 2015

I've always felt that cross-faction should start with Cold Harbor after completing your faction's main quest. Craiglorn should also be cross faction in my mind.

Rev Rielle · February 2015

Yes, this is how it should be, re the OP's bolded section: once you hit level 50 and decide to play in another alliance's areas, you'll be able to play with friends IN that faction

As it is at the moment, it's not really a 'megaserver' in terms of gameplay experience. For all the technological skill development implemented to design the megaserver and have it functional has been offset by the three factions.

In reality it plays almost identical to three servers at the moment, and in doing so they've undone a lot of their own good work, which is a real shame. Hopefully it is something that in future they will remedy. No MMO should split their player-base up in to thirds: It should be all about bringing players together.

JoffyToffy69 · February 2015

There is a bit of a problem with this cross faction after 50 idea.
If I am AD, hit 50, go play in EP with a friend from EP, what level would the mobs be?
Currently as AD in EP, starting mobs are v1. For my EP friend, they would be level 1-3, maybe 5. (Not vr)

If I was to do quests, wouldn't my EP friend already have done them?

So cross faction new areas is probably the easiest solution. LFG i think should definitely be cross faction.
It could be possible to add in new vr quests in starting areas. I don't know how people would level their vr if cadwell option wasn't there...

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

JoffyToffy69 wrote: »

There is a bit of a problem with this cross faction after 50 idea.
If I am AD, hit 50, go play in EP with a friend from EP, what level would the mobs be?
Currently as AD in EP, starting mobs are v1. For my EP friend, they would be level 1-3, maybe 5. (Not vr)

If I was to do quests, wouldn't my EP friend already have done them?

So cross faction new areas is probably the easiest solution. LFG i think should definitely be cross faction.
It could be possible to add in new vr quests in starting areas. I don't know how people would level their vr if cadwell option wasn't there...

This is why it's only a viable option for the zones that haven't been released yet. As I've said about 3 times prior to this comment.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

ADDENDUM:

I understand that going back and refurbishing the Cadwell's Silver and Gold content would be a monumental pain in the rear for the Devs. It's done. It's over with. Messing with it would only be a hassle.

However, the possibility and probability of this becoming an actual thing is more prevalent when regarding content that has yet to go live.

IE: Cross-faction PvE could be a feasible possibility in zones that have yet to be released. Far more likely and far less difficult to implement than it would be to go back and screw with content that's already in place.

This message has been a service for those of us who don't like reading and because of that fact, often find ourselves out in the weeds FAR away from the premise and details of the original post. I do it too.

MornaBaine · February 2015

All dungeons and things like DSA should be cross faction and the LFG tool should account for that. Since you set the level on dungeons there's no problem with questing in an area that would be 50 to you but 20 to your friends actually IN that faction.

Gyudan · February 2015

I don't want to play with arrogant elves and dirty nords. Having to tolerate orcs is already enough.

JoffyToffy69 · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

JoffyToffy69 wrote: »

There is a bit of a problem with this cross faction after 50 idea.
If I am AD, hit 50, go play in EP with a friend from EP, what level would the mobs be?
Currently as AD in EP, starting mobs are v1. For my EP friend, they would be level 1-3, maybe 5. (Not vr)

If I was to do quests, wouldn't my EP friend already have done them?

So cross faction new areas is probably the easiest solution. LFG i think should definitely be cross faction.
It could be possible to add in new vr quests in starting areas. I don't know how people would level their vr if cadwell option wasn't there...

This is why it's only a viable option for the zones that haven't been released yet. As I've said about 3 times prior to this comment.

I agree with you, just adding extra explanation why the article's cross faction is impractical. (Obviously you already understand, but not everyone is as bright)
I agree, Crag should be cross faction too. Let's hope they make it possible with new DLC areas, but I don't think we should hold our breath.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

All dungeons and things like DSA should be cross faction and the LFG tool should account for that. Since you set the level on dungeons there's no problem with questing in an area that would be 50 to you but 20 to your friends actually IN that faction.

This would require them to more heavily instance dungeons and whatnot. Hell it'd probably be cost effective to take a server (lets say one of the old PvP servers and make it nothing but dungeons and group content.

You run to the entrance of a dungeon and go in? That loading screen is the wait time to transfer to the dungeon server.

You queue up using the refurbished and improved LFG tool? It sucks you into the dungeon server.

Just a thought. I have no idea how the phasing and instancing or coding and sorcery work for separating dungeon environments from the rest of the in game world actually works.

I just play the damn game. But there's gotta be ways to do this.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

JoffyToffy69 wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

JoffyToffy69 wrote: »

There is a bit of a problem with this cross faction after 50 idea.
If I am AD, hit 50, go play in EP with a friend from EP, what level would the mobs be?
Currently as AD in EP, starting mobs are v1. For my EP friend, they would be level 1-3, maybe 5. (Not vr)

If I was to do quests, wouldn't my EP friend already have done them?

So cross faction new areas is probably the easiest solution. LFG i think should definitely be cross faction.
It could be possible to add in new vr quests in starting areas. I don't know how people would level their vr if cadwell option wasn't there...

This is why it's only a viable option for the zones that haven't been released yet. As I've said about 3 times prior to this comment.

I agree with you, just adding extra explanation why the article's cross faction is impractical. (Obviously you already understand, but not everyone is as bright)
I agree, Crag should be cross faction too. Let's hope they make it possible with new DLC areas, but I don't think we should hold our breath.

Ooooh, see I see now. /hi5

Apologies, I thought I wasn't clear in the posts.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

I don't want to play with arrogant elves and dirty nords. Having to tolerate orcs is already enough.

Nazon_Katts · February 2015

Think if they ever get around to change 'travel to player' to let you travel to the same phase, instead of just to the same coordinates in your own one, cross faction would be doable without all too much work on the content itself and could be available for all the of the game, especially when you scale the player to the content.

But apparently it's not so easy to actually move characters between different phases, otherwise we would have seen that a long while ago.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Supposedly they're getting better at figuring out phasing to do with questing, it's been so damned long since I've had it matter though so I wouldn't begin to know what's different.

Nazon_Katts · February 2015

AFAIK, up until now their approach has been to remove phases and they managed to sync phases to the group leader in Craglorn quests.But while they seem to be getting there, database issue remain unresolved.

There's a chance whatever prevents simultaneous character copies on PTS, could prevent characters once assigned to a faction to move between them freely as well. So maybe people don't just feel like playing on separated shards, but actually are.

Anyways, they are working on these issues and I don't think they're opposed to cross faction play, but probably haven't got a clue as to when they might be ready for it or if they might run into insolvable problems.

So before admitting technical and design difficulties, without the opportunity of presenting a solution and upcoming positive game changes, they'd rather remain silent on the matter and keep tinkering.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

I don't see how they're gonna get around not implementing this.

Non-Alliance / Common foe scenarios absolutely do not preclude this. Fighter's Guild, Mage's Guild, Undatunted, Anchors, "I lost my dog," and "The town is on fire," all imply a common goal that has nothing to do with the battelfield.

There are exceptions to the "You are my sworn enemy" scenarios, always.

"See you tried to kill me back there, and now you're dying. Here's an aspirin."

You essentially side with a Daedra in CH quest who later tries, with much vigor, to kill you in Vet CoA.

Add to that fact that the population will likely get cut into 1/3 again. Figure some gravitating to PS, some to Xbox...

It's not that hard to make a check (If NOT in Cyrodiil THEN group with who you wish...) Non vets are already prevented from entering vet areas, the rest is unnecessary. Enter the vet/non-vet version of the zone based on your setting in the group menu or that of your group leader, same as every other scaling instance.

Kragorn · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Since this HASN'T been the case, the possibility and easiest way to implement this type of gameplay, is to put it in with the zones that haven't been released yet.

Touching 1-50 would be FAR too large of an undertaking and would inevitably be unnecessary and a waste of time and resources.

What about VR1-VR14?

Putting this type of content into 'unreleased areas' I presume you mean VR14+ areas which is fine, but you don't want 1-50 fiddling with .. so where does that leave VR1-VR14 leveling?

Same place as now and that's a problem because those zones are nigh on deserted which is a huge problem for those still working on getting to Craglorn levels, I know, personally.

Enodoc · February 2015

I too would love to know whether this was actually technically possible. I've posted numerous times about how it would work with the lore, but the technical details are another matter.
Here's the lore-reasons, for anyone who has missed them before:

Coldharbour: All three alliance leaders have agreed to the invasion, so it would make sense for members of all alliances to be there.
Craglorn: Politically neutral with no fealty to any alliance; also the Star-Gazers are searching for help in each capital city, so it would make sense for members of all alliances to respond.
Group Dungeons: All of these are organised by the Undaunted, who take members from all factions, so any Undaunted should be able to group with any other Undaunted to tackle it.
Trials: Combine Group Dungeons reason with Craglorn reason.
Eyevea and the Earth Forge: Members of the Mages Guild and Fighters Guild come from all alliances, and these are their safe zones, so people from all alliances will be there.

Here are the technical considerations:

Cross-faction is possible - see Cyrodiil. However there may be an issue with the "PvP flag" if PvP is solely indicated by:
```
if [your_faction] != [my_faction] then set: PvP = 1
```
However, Justice System PvP, when it exists, will be enabling intra-faction PvP based on another flag:
```
if [enforcer] = 1 OR [outlaw] = 1 then set: PvP = 1
```
So all that is needed to avoid any cross-faction PvP occurring (without consent) is an edit to the first flag which has a preceding condition of
```
if [zone] = Cyrodiil
```
The case is there to consider whether cross-faction PvP should be allowed in these areas at all.
On top of that, you may have people who do not want to play cross-faction; in which case, there could be an option in the Settings menu called Enable Cross-Faction Neutral PvE (default on)

Regarding the levelling gap between Silver and Gold; when Veteran Ranks are removed, this would no longer be an issue, so cross-faction in these 50+ zones would theoretically work as well.

wraith808 · February 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Regarding the levelling gap between Silver and Gold; when Veteran Ranks are removed, this would no longer be an issue, so cross-faction in these 50+ zones would theoretically work as well.

So you're saying that the VR levels are the only difference between silver and gold and 1-50? Can I have some of what you're smoking? Because if they change it to *just* that... 50's getting a real boost in power. If I can take a mob at 50, I'm going to be really bored at whatever arbitrary difference I am at whatever my equivalent is now at VR10...

Kragorn · February 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Regarding the levelling gap between Silver and Gold; when Veteran Ranks are removed, this would no longer be an issue, so cross-faction in these 50+ zones would theoretically work as well.

I thought ZOS have recnetly said VR isn't being removed.

Reddit maybe? Paul Sage in the last few days?

NewBlacksmurf · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Regarding the levelling gap between Silver and Gold; when Veteran Ranks are removed, this would no longer be an issue, so cross-faction in these 50+ zones would theoretically work as well.

I thought ZOS have recnetly said VR isn't being removed.

Reddit maybe? Paul Sage in the last few days?

I honestly would like to see a few things around this topic/idea...

1. Based on some recent comments that VR isn't leaving by June 2015....I would like to see the VR level content as an all faction combined area. Whether that is PvP + PvE zones not including Craglorn, is something ZOS needs to figure out but to be honest, the VR levels are aa sore spot and the silver/gold quests go against the "at war" concept. IF the silver and gold quests were faction combined with Pve+PvP this adds a realistic and yet challenging experience that makes sense.

*It will be hard as heck to gain VR levels but maybe because the sub is removed, it will promote a faction vs. faction support Eco-system beyond level 50 content.

2. VR levels should not exist after patch update 1.6 when Champion Levels and the Justice system is added.

3. In relation to item #2 where people suggest that you cant just remove the VR levels...then for patch 1.6 remove VR levels and replace them with numeric sequential character levels,ie. 51 - 64 temporarily. Which will cause item #1 to move the shard finding from silver and gold quests and place those skills in align with the gain of character levels beyond 50. This adds purpose to those (VR levels - character levels)