PTS 1.6 - Decrease Guard Toughness
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AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I believe guards should be killable, but with a heavy price:
1-Guards should have the same difficulty as a 12 person raid boss.
2-Killing of a guard should grant legendary gear that must be laundered.
3-Killing of a guard should affect the perpetrating player in terms of constant harassment in all cities unless the perpetrating players fullfil certain quest requirements, we'll call this a redemption quest.
4-The loss of a guard in a city will make that city overrun with mobs and players must fulfill writs or fight off a certain number of mobs before they can access the bank or get more quests.
5-Any non perpetrating player who helps a criminal player on their redemption quest should be rewarded, maybe a key to that victim city that opens all the doors and chests and lootable objects wirhout being a fugitive. The helping player shall have a title like "Shepard of Redemption.".
6-The Shepard of Redemption title should be stackable, and every time the quest is completed, they get an item or title when equipped grants a buff.
7-If the shepard of redemption also participates in restoring the city as described in #4, they should also recieve the title "hero of x township" and talking to npcs of x township will get items for free. The more often they complete both the shepard and hero quest the better the items.
Well that's just the overview of what should happen to the killing player, the town that lost the guard, and how bystanding good samaritans might be able to or be forced to help. The difficulty and intricacies of the fall out quests should be left to the designers to hammer out the details.
Nice idea, I think!
, but I think if your character does kill a guard he/she should have a permanent Kill on Sight Bounty attached to him/her.
That's right, if you do manage to kill a guard, then every guard will try to kill you on sight permanently, and for every guard you kill they get tougher, and they are more likely to summon extra guards.
And any player that kills you gets paid for the bounty too, even if they have a bounty themselves (but not if they have the same permanent Kill on Sight Bounty)People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Permanent bounty is a bad idea, I would think. Mess up a character forever?? No.
Persistent for a while... much better. Can be a long while if there was a special quest you'd have to do to get your "outlaw" status revoked...1 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheShadowScout wrote: »Permanent bounty is a bad idea, I would think. Mess up a character forever?? No.
Persistent for a while... much better. Can be a long while if there was a special quest you'd have to do to get your "outlaw" status revoked...
Ok, say it lasts a month, but keep the guards getting tougher each time you kill one, make that permanent, but if it only lasts a month give us NPC Bounty Hunters hunting you (also gets the boost everytime you kill one).People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Instead of a fixed time as outlaw, there could be an time-intensive questline to "earn a pardon"...
For example, getting that pardon may require doing, say, five daily quests in places where bounty hunter PCs might be looking for outlaws... That'd be five days they get to hunt the outlaw and collect bounties, and then the outlaw player can get their pardon, and enter cities again without being killed. And maybe not kill any guard ever again so they don't have to do those tenious five days again... or maybe they will, because they liked it. Each as they wish.
The point being, the justice system could offer more then just paying a fine or respawning due to godly guards when you get kill on sight, and some exile time. Even if not now, maybe someday.0 -
DanielMaxwell✭✭✭heith182ub17_ESO wrote: »DanielMaxwell wrote: »Until they implement the PvP portion of the justice system having the guards be unkillable makes since .
When they do implement the PvP portion of the Justice system , the guards will have to be killable , otherwise the players who wish to be guards will not be able to fulfill that role with the NPC guards killing off the criminal PCs.
Everyone should remember this is an MMO so other players preferred play styles will have an unwanted effect on your game play , there will have to be compromises so that most players can have a game play experience that they can enjoy most of the time .
all that he said is truth.. the potential is there for some fun sandbox, pvp, and RP
I understand some players concerns about griefing , but some of them are placing their personal play style above that of everyone else instead of trying to come up with a compromise that works.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭firstdecan wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
I have to agree the guards are fine. They're not killable, but it's not that difficult to outrun them. It's not easy, but once you've managed it once or twice it's just another repetitive game mechanic.
Yeah, the only thing that really bugs me is that they're all using magicka powers. If they were using stamina abilities like caltrops or a net throw instead of dark talons, it would make more sense to me.0 -
Dreizopf✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »Unbeatable guards is so anti-Elder Scrolls that it hurts.
This!!! I am the hero in this world.
If there are guards everywhere, who are immortal, then they are the heros and they are supposed to save the world against Molag Bal. And I have lost my job.
:-(Man sollte sagen, was man meint. Wenn man nicht sagt, was man meint, dann meint man nicht, was man sagt.
You should say what you are meaning. If you don't say what you are meaning, you don't mean what you are saying.
(Wittgenstein, "Lycidas", Christoph Marzi)3 -
Dave2836✭✭✭Well one way to prevent gold farming is to make the drops bound on pickup uniques, and increase the drops' laundering cost, and if the player wanted to sell the items they would sell for 1 gold or less. If that's not enough, make the item non-repairable.
If you want to limit the attacks on guards in towns, similar standards can be placed on your equipped items. All points bulletins have a description of the perpetrator's clothes, so make the already equipped items flagged to be laundered, non repairable, unique bound.
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JoffyToffy69✭✭✭✭This thread seems way to long (cbf reading it all), so I apologize if someone already suggested my idea.
A solution to large groups trolling areas and killing all guards would be to allow PVP. If there are large groups killing guards, I'm sure there will be large groups ready to take on the "trolls".
Make other players become guards.
It would be like defending a keep in Cyrodiil.Fun comes from diversity, balance kills diversity.
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Draehl✭✭✭JoffyToffy69 wrote: »This thread seems way to long (cbf reading it all), so I apologize if someone already suggested my idea.
A solution to large groups trolling areas and killing all guards would be to allow PVP. If there are large groups killing guards, I'm sure there will be large groups ready to take on the "trolls".
Make other players become guards.
It would be like defending a keep in Cyrodiil.
This is already planned as a part of the justice system to come later. Unfortunately, griefers, by nature of initiating action, will be far more organized than responders. Then when responders show up they can simply determine a new location to grief and it will take some time for the responders to find out...
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Dave2836✭✭✭
People will notice all the buildings on fire while invading daedra are attacking them in front of a blacksmithing station.JoffyToffy69 wrote: »This thread seems way to long (cbf reading it all), so I apologize if someone already suggested my idea.
A solution to large groups trolling areas and killing all guards would be to allow PVP. If there are large groups killing guards, I'm sure there will be large groups ready to take on the "trolls".
Make other players become guards.
It would be like defending a keep in Cyrodiil.
This is already planned as a part of the justice system to come later. Unfortunately, griefers, by nature of initiating action, will be far more organized than responders. Then when responders show up they can simply determine a new location to grief and it will take some time for the responders to find out...
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karmamule✭✭✭The key is to make sure the maximum number of people can have an enjoyable gaming experience *somewhere* in ESO. I personally would be annoyed if every city and town in ESO were in a constant state of chaos with dead bodies lying everywhere and large roaming bands cutting down guards left and right. That's not a world I want to be in all the time.
On the other hand I can understand someone who doesn't want ESO to be a medieval version of Little House on the Prairie, with sunshine and roses everywhere. They thrive on chaos and turmoil and that's what they find fun.
Perhaps ESO could borrow a page from EVE and provide different areas with different level of security. Large and/or wealthy cities/towns/villages can be the equivalent of EVE 1.0 space. Very safe, and they can afford the best most powerful guards, hence very little chaos, and very big rewards for those who can *subtly* commit crimes. Those of us who want some measure of civilized behavior would hang out in these places.
Other parts of the world could be the equivalent of EVE's null-sec, with weak/beginner or even no guards and in a constant state of turmoil. Never a quiet moment, and mayhem rules. Not so much loot (unless maybe in the home of the local bandit chieftain?) but chaos would be its own reward for that type of player.
Very careful consideration must be given to how the in-game economy is affected by this, and it would take lots of planning. I think they're taking a safe approach (in terms of game/economy balance especially) with invincible guards, and given all the sweeping changes they're already making that's probably wise.
I'm happy with things as they are, and would not be so happy if the game is a giant charnel house. However I am sympathetic to others with different tastes/needs/wants who are looking for a more free-for-all environment and perhaps in subsequent iterations of the Justice system with additional PVP options they'll find a way to make that happen so we can all have places to go in Tamriel to be immersed in the type of environment we find most appealing.1 -
LordTareq✭✭✭✭✭Imho, the guards should be killable, but be really tough. Players should also be able to flee from guards succesfully or even fight them for a while.
However, guards should call for reinforcements when attacked, so you end up with a whole bunch of them after a while. Large groups of "bandit" players should be able to kill the guards in small towns etc though.0 -
UrQuan✭✭✭✭✭
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They already can. On PTS I successfully fled from guards with a character that was fresh out of Coldharbour (I had been trying out the new tutorial). I had to break free of talons twice, run like the wind, get to a place where the guards couldn't see me, and go into stealth as soon as possible, but it worked, and I was only level 4.Players should also be able to flee from guards succesfully or even fight them for a while.
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Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I decided to conduct a test and just see how long I could survive going toe-toe with a guard. So I crammed as much mitigation on my bar as I possibly could and just focused on blocking/dodging/healing and staying alive.
I was doing quite well for the first 20 seconds or so, blocking or mitigating most of the attacks. Then WHAM! Dead. So I tried again, same results. Tried again, same results.
The interesting thing is that it doesn't matter if you are blocking or not. After some kind of timer, you WILL die. The block didn't mitigate the damage of the killing attack what so ever, and the death recap only showed that I was hit for 11k when I had over 20k health.
So it doesn't matter what you do, if you let them hit you enough times, there will be a insta-death kill shot.0 -
jelliedsoup✭✭✭✭✭i don't see why the guards can't be killable and just spawn quickly. They can still be tough to kill just not impossible. All you can do is try to eacape when one targets you. Makes it kinda silly.
Old ES games just made guards hard to kill.www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO40 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭jelliedsoup wrote: »i don't see why the guards can't be killable and just spawn quickly. They can still be tough to kill just not impossible. All you can do is try to eacape when one targets you. Makes it kinda silly.
Old ES games just made guards hard to kill.
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Dreizopf✭✭✭...
Perhaps ESO could borrow a page from EVE and provide different areas with different level of security. Large and/or wealthy cities/towns/villages can be the equivalent of EVE 1.0 space. Very safe, and they can afford the best most powerful guards, hence very little chaos, and very big rewards for those who can *subtly* commit crimes. Those of us who want some measure of civilized behavior would hang out in these places.
Other parts of the world could be the equivalent of EVE's null-sec, with weak/beginner or even no guards and in a constant state of turmoil. Never a quiet moment, and mayhem rules. Not so much loot (unless maybe in the home of the local bandit chieftain?) but chaos would be its own reward for that type of player. ...
This is a very good idea, imho. The realism of the world will grow.
But as I mentioned earlier, the guards must not be immortal. I am the hero, we are the heros! We have to save the world from Molag Bal, not the immortals.
To avoid endless griefing the fight against the guards have to be very very expensive (high cost of repair, random lost of items including the equipped ones, lost of sky shards, whatsoever more will really hurt). But if one can manage crime without being noticed by the guards, well, that's realism. And that would be much more difficult in "EVE 1.0 space" than in "Low Sec Area".Man sollte sagen, was man meint. Wenn man nicht sagt, was man meint, dann meint man nicht, was man sagt.
You should say what you are meaning. If you don't say what you are meaning, you don't mean what you are saying.
(Wittgenstein, "Lycidas", Christoph Marzi)0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agree mostly with OP. Don't think we should be able to solo kill guards but I want to see 50 players attacking a guard to kill him with the guard just smashing player after player with their OP abilities dealing insane amounts of damage
that would make for fun times. Edited by TehMagnus on February 5, 2015 11:11AM0 -
apostate9✭✭✭✭✭SG_Celerrimus wrote: »SG_Celerrimus wrote: »The guards are supposed to be invincible. You aren't supposed to be able to beat them or get away from them. Working as intended. This isn't just for the PTS either, it was intended to be this way when it goes live as well.
I think that really takes away from the potential fun of the system. They should be really hard, yes, but they should be killable at least, that way its possible to do things like kill them for RP purposes, and escape after breaking the law.
And that would be fine for RP purposes, but ESO consists of more than just RP players. There would be literally thousands of griefers and jackwagons that would constantly go from town to town slaughtering everyone and everything and stealing as they go just to be doing it. How would that add to your immersion as an RP'er if everyone was dead in every town you went to every day?
I think you are overstretching what I am saying. I am NOT saying make them easy as water to the point where you can just down a pack of them with a swing and keep on frolicking.
What I AM saying is to make them KILLABLE in that they actually take some damage, so you have a chance to fight for your life and be able to kill them and get away.
They should make them killable, but still tough enough so that if you attract 2+, your basically toasted.
And what I am saying is that there are more than enough trolls and griefers in this game to roam from zone to zone, town to town, in packs of VR14's slaughtering everything in sight just because they can. That's exactly what would happen.
And so what? A buncha nobodies got killed? They do respawn.
He's right. Unkillable guards is unnecessary and sucks a lot.0 -
apostate9✭✭✭✭✭Trust me, people WOULD find a way to exploit the system.
This community, sad to say, is full of pathetic cheaters that suck so much they cant play the game itself, and want to make it easy at the expense of everyone else's fun.
There are also the grievers, who WOULD find a way to grieve with this system.
I myself do not want to take that kind of risk. Leave the guards as they are. You and everyone of us can adapt.
Exploit WHAT?
That's just a bromide dude, there is nothing to exploit. The basic facts are as OP stated, the NPCS are fluff. killing them is meaningless except for RP and the goods you could lift would run dry before the guards respawned. The guards suck.
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apostate9✭✭✭✭✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »DanielMaxwell wrote: »The only way they can make the guards kill able would to restrict the targeting of NPCs for killing to flavor NPCs while making vendors , quest givers , bankers , and any other NPC that is need to progress the games storyline .
If they make the guards kill able they should be made equal to a two pip elite boss in the open game world with a respawn time of .5 to 2 seconds coupled with a doubling mechanic on each respawn (i.e. every time you kill 1 guard two more spawn) .
This would prevent the griefers from killing off the vital NPCs in the town while allowing the players who are "breaking" the in game laws a chance to escape or kill the guards .
Have you not been on the PTS at all?
The guards are 3 or 4 pip super elites. You can't attack bankers, quest givers, quest npcs, or merchants.
Flavor NPCs respawn in a couple of minutes. Super quick. Like 5 minutes tops.
And so far I haven't seen a point where I couldn't loot one of the NPCs I've killed.
That fact, coupled with the respawn rate, added to hypothetical scenario where guards are killable? A small group could wipe a town clean for hours on end, raking in cash and making the value of gold in the guild trader system that of water.
You mean like...grinding?
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apostate9✭✭✭✭✭heith182ub17_ESO wrote: »EDIT: I want to point out that even invulnerable guards can be kept busy while others loot the town. I watched a group in Craglorn keep a guard busy for a while. They cannot kill the guard but they can get him to change focus enough to keep the party members alive. They can lead the guards around like they are on a leash.
sounds almost like player made content, might be cool if that guard had to yell for help when facing an organized group.
l could see bandit guilds forming.. i'm in!
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Make an ability only for guards. When a guard reaches 30% health, he can summon adds, i.e. he does a warhorn animation and summons 2 more guards that despawn when combat is over.Anyone who kills the cops and gets away from this alive deserves it.
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Maddhawk✭✭
THREADOMANCY!!SG_Celerrimus wrote: »SG_Celerrimus wrote: »The guards are supposed to be invincible. You aren't supposed to be able to beat them or get away from them. Working as intended. This isn't just for the PTS either, it was intended to be this way when it goes live as well.
I think that really takes away from the potential fun of the system. They should be really hard, yes, but they should be killable at least, that way its possible to do things like kill them for RP purposes, and escape after breaking the law.
And that would be fine for RP purposes, but ESO consists of more than just RP players. There would be literally thousands of griefers and jackwagons that would constantly go from town to town slaughtering everyone and everything and stealing as they go just to be doing it. How would that add to your immersion as an RP'er if everyone was dead in every town you went to every day?
I think you are overstretching what I am saying. I am NOT saying make them easy as water to the point where you can just down a pack of them with a swing and keep on frolicking.
What I AM saying is to make them KILLABLE in that they actually take some damage, so you have a chance to fight for your life and be able to kill them and get away.
They should make them killable, but still tough enough so that if you attract 2+, your basically toasted.
And what I am saying is that there are more than enough trolls and griefers in this game to roam from zone to zone, town to town, in packs of VR14's slaughtering everything in sight just because they can. That's exactly what would happen.
And so what? A buncha nobodies got killed? They do respawn.
He's right. Unkillable guards is unnecessary and sucks a lot.
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