PTS 1.6 - Decrease Guard Toughness

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

BEFORE READING THIS- KEEP IN MIND THE IMPORTANT FACT THAT ONLY GENERIC NPCS CAN BE KILLED BY THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, NOT QUEST GIVERS, VENDORS, BANKERS, ETC.

Just dabbling around on the PTS right now before I get ready to end my day, and I keep feeling like the guards are cities and towns are WAY to strong right now. If they could be tuned down a little bit to a point where they can be killed solo, that would make it a bit more fun. Also, if they could be tweaked a bit so they don't chain pull and grip you to the ground as much, that would be neat also.

The thing is, as it stands, it is really hard to get away from them, so taking an escape route if you get caught while committing a crime is next to impossible, and killing them right now is, I believe, impossible (I saw a group of people try and kill one and they all died). I think that a person should be able to kill a guard, since right now, the unkillable guards takes away from anyone trying to RP as a bandit or a marauder or assassin or something like that, as they have to fight basically gods.

Just my thoughts on it so far.

P.S. - If it could be tweaked so that if you kill all witnesses to a crime, the bounty goes away, that would be neat. Idk if its like that already, doesn't seem to be, but I think, if it is, it might be affected by pets.

dharbert · February 2015

The guards are supposed to be invincible. You aren't supposed to be able to beat them or get away from them. Working as intended. This isn't just for the PTS either, it was intended to be this way when it goes live as well. Otherwise, players would just enter a town and slaughter everyone and steal everything with no consequence.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

The guards are supposed to be invincible. You aren't supposed to be able to beat them or get away from them. Working as intended. This isn't just for the PTS either, it was intended to be this way when it goes live as well.

I think that really takes away from the potential fun of the system. They should be really hard, yes, but they should be killable at least, that way its possible to do things like kill them for RP purposes, and escape after breaking the law.

Faugaun · February 2015

Guards are fine as they are

Maverick827 · February 2015

Unbeatable guards is so anti-Elder Scrolls that it hurts.

dharbert · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

The guards are supposed to be invincible. You aren't supposed to be able to beat them or get away from them. Working as intended. This isn't just for the PTS either, it was intended to be this way when it goes live as well.

I think that really takes away from the potential fun of the system. They should be really hard, yes, but they should be killable at least, that way its possible to do things like kill them for RP purposes, and escape after breaking the law.

And that would be fine for RP purposes, but ESO consists of more than just RP players. There would be literally thousands of griefers and jackwagons that would constantly go from town to town slaughtering everyone and everything and stealing as they go just to be doing it. How would that add to your immersion as an RP'er if everyone was dead in every town you went to every day?

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

The guards are supposed to be invincible. You aren't supposed to be able to beat them or get away from them. Working as intended. This isn't just for the PTS either, it was intended to be this way when it goes live as well.

I think that really takes away from the potential fun of the system. They should be really hard, yes, but they should be killable at least, that way its possible to do things like kill them for RP purposes, and escape after breaking the law.

And that would be fine for RP purposes, but ESO consists of more than just RP players. There would be literally thousands of griefers and jackwagons that would constantly go from town to town slaughtering everyone and everything and stealing as they go just to be doing it. How would that add to your immersion as an RP'er if everyone was dead in every town you went to every day?

I think you are overstretching what I am saying. I am NOT saying make them easy as water to the point where you can just down a pack of them with a swing and keep on frolicking.

What I AM saying is to make them KILLABLE in that they actually take some damage, so you have a chance to fight for your life and be able to kill them and get away.

They should make them killable, but still tough enough so that if you attract 2+, your basically toasted.

dharbert · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

The guards are supposed to be invincible. You aren't supposed to be able to beat them or get away from them. Working as intended. This isn't just for the PTS either, it was intended to be this way when it goes live as well.

I think that really takes away from the potential fun of the system. They should be really hard, yes, but they should be killable at least, that way its possible to do things like kill them for RP purposes, and escape after breaking the law.

And that would be fine for RP purposes, but ESO consists of more than just RP players. There would be literally thousands of griefers and jackwagons that would constantly go from town to town slaughtering everyone and everything and stealing as they go just to be doing it. How would that add to your immersion as an RP'er if everyone was dead in every town you went to every day?

I think you are overstretching what I am saying. I am NOT saying make them easy as water to the point where you can just down a pack of them with a swing and keep on frolicking.

What I AM saying is to make them KILLABLE in that they actually take some damage, so you have a chance to fight for your life and be able to kill them and get away.

They should make them killable, but still tough enough so that if you attract 2+, your basically toasted.

And what I am saying is that there are more than enough trolls and griefers in this game to roam from zone to zone, town to town, in packs of VR14's slaughtering everything in sight just because they can. That's exactly what would happen.

TheShadowScout · February 2015

Personally I would like to see the justice guards be the same strength then the cyrodil PvP guards. Tough, but killable with a good character, or a bit of luck.

But... if you kill one, up goes the bounty and three guards come after you instead. And so on. More and more until everyone fighting the city guard is plowed under by sheer numbers.

Drawberrry · February 2015

Doesn't bother me

The guard's are suppose to be the best of the best to protect their kingdom after all...

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

The guards are supposed to be invincible. You aren't supposed to be able to beat them or get away from them. Working as intended. This isn't just for the PTS either, it was intended to be this way when it goes live as well.

I think that really takes away from the potential fun of the system. They should be really hard, yes, but they should be killable at least, that way its possible to do things like kill them for RP purposes, and escape after breaking the law.

And that would be fine for RP purposes, but ESO consists of more than just RP players. There would be literally thousands of griefers and jackwagons that would constantly go from town to town slaughtering everyone and everything and stealing as they go just to be doing it. How would that add to your immersion as an RP'er if everyone was dead in every town you went to every day?

I think you are overstretching what I am saying. I am NOT saying make them easy as water to the point where you can just down a pack of them with a swing and keep on frolicking.

What I AM saying is to make them KILLABLE in that they actually take some damage, so you have a chance to fight for your life and be able to kill them and get away.

They should make them killable, but still tough enough so that if you attract 2+, your basically toasted.

And what I am saying is that there are more than enough trolls and griefers in this game to roam from zone to zone, town to town, in packs of VR14's slaughtering everything in sight just because they can. That's exactly what would happen.

Ok, and what if they were made so that they scale based on how many people hit them?

For instance (EXAMPLE NUMBERS)

Guard - 1 person attacking

Health: 400/500
Damage: 100
Magicka: 300/520
Stamina: 450/700

Guard - 2 people attacking

Health: 500/600
Damage: 200
Magicka: 400/620
Stamina: 550/800

A simple solution would just to have the above happen for those situations of packs of v14s roaming around killing things, if a guard's stats wen't up by a certain amount for everyone who joins the fight, problem solved. Now, this would need to be handled so that it only registers if a person does a certain amount of damage, say 100 damage, and will only count that person for say 30 seconds after that hit unless it gets hit again, at which point the 30 second time will be refreshed.

Now yes, someone could be a complete troll and just come by and hit the mob once to make your job of fighting it harder, but its an MMO, there will always be people who are just jerks, and I think some NPCs are like this already anyway and don't have any problems.

dharbert · February 2015

It's a moot point anyway. No, they can't be killed, but they can be CC'd and ran away from.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

CCing them just feels cheap and non-Elder Scrolls. This is an Elder Scrolls Game afterall.

Also, CCing them doesn't always work, as they can charge, chain grip, and stun, so running away gets really hard.

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO · February 2015

Drawberrry wrote: »

Doesn't bother me
The guard's are suppose to be the best of the best to protect their kingdom after all...

They should have sent them to save Tamriel instead of all these unnamed heros then

dharbert · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

CCing them just feels cheap and non-Elder Scrolls. This is an Elder Scrolls Game afterall.

No, this is an MMO, not a single-player Elder Scrolls RPG where your actions affect no one else but you.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

CCing them just feels cheap and non-Elder Scrolls. This is an Elder Scrolls Game afterall.

No, this is an MMO, not a single-player Elder Scrolls RPG where your actions affect no one else but you.

ELDER SCROLLS Online.

And, imo, we need more of an ES feel than an MMO feel. Up until Update 6, this game leaned more towards the "Online" (a.k.a MMO) side of things, and it didn't do so well. Update 6 brings it more towards "Elder Scrolls", and this update is amazingly fun to play on the PTS.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

ALSO,

If you attack a guard that is inside of a building, you are basically dead. You can't open doors while inside, so you have a god attacking you inside of a room you can't get out of. That ain't right.

Iluvrien · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

ELDER SCROLLS Online.

And, imo, we need more of an ES feel than an MMO feel. Up until Update 6, this game leaned more towards the "Online" (a.k.a MMO) side of things, and it didn't do so well. Update 6 brings it more towards "Elder Scrolls", and this update is amazingly fun to play on the PTS.

The question is, does your desire to have a guard that you can one-on-one kill in a challenging fashion override the likely outcome that @dharbert suggested which is that entire towns would get wiped out, on a regular basis?

I would say "no".

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

ELDER SCROLLS Online.

And, imo, we need more of an ES feel than an MMO feel. Up until Update 6, this game leaned more towards the "Online" (a.k.a MMO) side of things, and it didn't do so well. Update 6 brings it more towards "Elder Scrolls", and this update is amazingly fun to play on the PTS.

The question is, does your desire to have a guard that you can one-on-one kill in a challenging fashion override the likely outcome that @dharbert suggested which is that entire towns would get wiped out, on a regular basis?

I would say "no".

I would say "yes" with NPC scaling so the guards scale based on how many people attack it, so that you don't have packs of v14s wiping them out, and having the group attack 2+ at a time would result in several deaths.

Take a game like Thief. That game is based on stealth, stealing and pickpocketing, and not getting caught. Even in that game, there is the ability to kill the guards because you get into situations where it is your last resort in order to survive (i.e. getting caught in a building like I described above).

It makes sense to be able to kill them, and is practical and follows common sense rules. Its just the implementation needs to be right.

SanderBuraas · February 2015

I do agree that guards being killable would be nice for those who wish to partake the role of a serial killer. It would also allow for better immersion in the game, as invincible guards is no fun. With them being killable, they would still be very strong. For those who fear towns being empty - two things to think about: people are still able to clear towns with a group of many, including escaping with no issue. The npcs respawn as well. When the pvp portion of the justice system is introduced, it will be harder for people to clear towns, but criminals are still able kill the enforcers. Guards should be mortal as well.

CP5 · February 2015

If you think making the guards kill-able won't result into towns of dead npcs you greatly under estimate the community. It wouldn't take long for people to set up a system where they could clear entire towns.

Sharnier · February 2015

I really think you should be able to kill a guard in the sense that it's somewhat as difficult as soloing a world boss. Invincibility is kind of un-fun, but guards very difficult to 1v1 could be great, though hard to kill in a group of 2 or 3.

manny254 · February 2015

Why the hell didn't they send these dam guards to kill Molag Bal or resolve all the conflict in Cyrodiil?

nerevarine1138 · February 2015

CP5 wrote: »

If you think making the guards kill-able won't result into towns of dead npcs you greatly under estimate the community. It wouldn't take long for people to set up a system where they could clear entire towns.

This.

You'll get your chance for an even fight when the PvP elements of the system are implemented.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

Also, think about it this way, because we can't ever overlook this.

When a new player joins our lovable band of misfits, and they step out of the starting zone, sparkle eyed and ready for adventure, and they wish to partake in the honest (but not so honest) life of crime and thievery, and then go and kill an NPC but also attracts the attention of a guard, they are going to get mad and frustrated, because they are going to die no matter what, just for wanting to play the style they want to and be a thief, and have absolute no shot (0, zip, nada) at living by fighting for their life.

I know I kinda stretched it with all the fanciness, but think about it, they won't enjoy it if they get killed immediately, and they will think the game is stupid and unfun because guards and gods.

Iluvrien · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

I would say "yes" with NPC scaling so the guards scale based on how many people attack it, so that you don't have packs of v14s wiping them out, and having the group attack 2+ at a time would result in several deaths.

Take a game like Thief. That game is based on stealth, stealing and pickpocketing, and not getting caught. Even in that game, there is the ability to kill the guards because you get into situations where it is your last resort in order to survive (i.e. getting caught in a building like I described above).

It makes sense to be able to kill them, and is practical and follows common sense rules. Its just the implementation needs to be right.

But surely even with the implementation that you suggest you end up with one of two outcomes:

1) The VR14 group meets insurmountable odds due to scaling and all die after engaging the guards.
2) The VR14 group destroys the guards.

Case 1 seems to be as near to unkillable guards as makes very little difference.

Case 2 then means that the group will then be free to take on another group of guards and another and another. It suggests that the wiping out of entire settlements will remain possible.

Even if the implementation is worked out with scaling (and people will complain about the immersion breaking aspect here) and a one-on-one fight will be possible but group fight will trigger a guard rush and instant death that still means that there is very little to stop an organised group of players going one-on-one with each guard in a settlement (maybe coming in from slightly different directions) and then wiping it out only a little more slowly than they originally would have.

I really wish I could see a way that this could work without being open to abuse. I just don't. Any system like this could be exploited to the detriment of the players in any settlement at any time. As such I still don't believe it should be implemented.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

@Iluvrien‌

Couple things, and nothing against you or anyone personally.

Every system in a game ever can pretty much be exploitable in some way shape or form, sometimes you just have to deal with it and accept the fact that is can happen.

Also, I think you guys are generalizing things to much, and taking the a few bad apples spoil the bunch route. Not everyone in this game travels in a pack seeking to kill everything in their path with a horde of players.

Also, since there is a sell limit of 50 for stole and conquered items, there is no purpose to raid and pillage towns all day long, as there is no gold gain from it. After a short amount of time, they would just be swinging at NPCs for no real practical reason.

I think a lot of people are taking the worst case scenarios of making guards killable and focusing way to much on them.

Drawberrry · February 2015

I think you're under the mistaken assumption that they would have a reason, much less a practical one

Cody · February 2015

NO.

While I too wish we could kill the guards; the invincible guards prevent epic grieving from no-life d'bags trying to make the game unplayable for everyone.

The guards can be escaped. don't just run in a straight path. Make sharp turns, roll dodge, CC break, jump across gaps, over rails, down walls.... be creative.

Iluvrien · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

Also, I think you guys are generalizing things to much, and taking the a few bad apples spoil the bunch route. Not everyone in this game travels in a pack seeking to kill everything in their path with a horde of players.

Well of course they don't, because at the moment there is no way for players of opposing groups to wipe out major staging/crafting/crafting centers associated with people they don't much like (newbies, opposing guilds, factions etc.). If there was a way to do this in the open world then I pretty much guarantee that those groups would form. I have seen it before in other games, as much as I like ESO I don't thin either the game or the playerbase is different enough to prevent it.

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

Also, since there is a sell limit of 50 for stole and conquered items, there is no purpose to raid and pillage towns all day long, as there is no gold gain from it. After a short amount of time, they would just be swinging at NPCs for no real practical reason.

Is griefing practical? Is jumping up and down naked on tavern tables spamming "say" with comments about genitalia practical? Try RP'ing in a tavern in the game and I promise you that you will meet that kind of behaviour more often than not. My guild gave up tavern RP completely for exactly that reason.

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

I think a lot of people are taking the worst case scenarios of making guards killable and focusing way to much on them.

I would prefer that we think of the worst case scenarios now and try and think of a way around them than wait until nobody can use the vendors in a major population center because they have been wiped out in an attack.

Shadesofkin · February 2015

Sad to admit it, but people are inherently bad, internet people doubly so. While there are a lot of us who know better and don't act on it, there are just as many who do act on it.

At the end of the day, griefing would happen.