PTS 1.6 - Decrease Guard Toughness

MrGhosty · February 2015

From what I've been able to gather the only NPCs that can be killed have no benefit to players beyond that given to them by their presence in the Justice System. So while I have no doubts there would be bands of players wiping towns out, all that will affect would be others trying to pickpocket. The gear in lootable containers is still instanced to you and you would actually benefit by having no witnesses.

Guards that cannot be killed isn't fun and I've already seen entire towns wiped out as it stands anyway so for those of us who would like to go toe to toe with the guards we're left with nothing because people will grief? People will find ways to ruin your day no matter what solutions are offered so building around these people isn't going to net much worth. I would be happy with the scaling mechanic that made guards tougher the more were fighting them it gives those who want to experience all of the justice system more to partake and the trolls will find something else to do that ruins your day (if you let them).

They made essential NPCs immortal because everyone knows that there would be people wiping out vendors just for kicks so that exploit hole is already plugged, why not give scaling guards a try?

Grayaxeb14_ESO · February 2015

In my opinion, they should be tough, but not invincible. Scaling them to how many attackers there are seems to be a good way to counter act it.
Also if you do happen to kill one, it should flag you as a guard killer. And then it's a waiting game, never knowing when the guards will find you. I can see it now, your on the Last boss of vet. Dragonstar arena and the guard shows up. Or your at the dye station, dyeing your small clothes, when you here the guard shout for you.
And if you kill the guard again, next time two show up and so forth. Never knowing when the guards will find you adds a little more depth to it.

Celless · February 2015

I think as long as the Enforcer aspect of the PvP system has not been implemented yet, guards should remain the way they are.

Joy_Division · February 2015

To all the people who insist that invincible guards are a necessary balancing mechanism: that doesn't mean the games needs to have guards that literally can not die not matter what a player does.

You just need a mechanism in place to ensure that what you fear (rampant loot and pillage by a guild of murderous players) does not happen. The simplest one I can think of is that when 1 town guard dies, two stronger guards spawn (think of them as specially trained reinforcements) go after the murderous player(s).

I just hate the fact that guards can't die. It's a lazy and an immersion breaking solution to a potential problem that eliminates some potential fun that can be added to this game. There are many Youtube videos of players just trying to wipe out all Whiterun's guards for instance. I personally would welcome the challenging of trying to defeat very difficult guards even if it was a pointless endeavor as more and more would spawn. Heck, I can even envision mini-games within ESO by would be criminals to see just how long and how many guards they can eliminate in these make-believe murderous escapades as there are in Skyrim.

It's just all in good fun. Let the guards be a difficult and ever increasing challenge to players who want to try and defeat them

Gidorick · February 2015

I completely agree... There must be a way!!!

frould · February 2015

Make guard kill able and other people will see you as enemy when you fighting with guard. People who successful helping guard got a little reward.

Dave2836 · February 2015

I believe guards should be killable, but with a heavy price:

1-Guards should have the same difficulty as a 12 person raid boss.
2-Killing of a guard should grant legendary gear that must be laundered.
3-Killing of a guard should affect the perpetrating player in terms of constant harassment in all cities unless the perpetrating players fullfil certain quest requirements, we'll call this a redemption quest.
4-The loss of a guard in a city will make that city overrun with mobs and players must fulfill writs or fight off a certain number of mobs before they can access the bank or get more quests.
5-Any non perpetrating player who helps a criminal player on their redemption quest should be rewarded, maybe a key to that victim city that opens all the doors and chests and lootable objects wirhout being a fugitive. The helping player shall have a title like "Shepard of Redemption.".
6-The Shepard of Redemption title should be stackable, and every time the quest is completed, they get an item or title when equipped grants a buff.
7-If the shepard of redemption also participates in restoring the city as described in #4, they should also recieve the title "hero of x township" and talking to npcs of x township will get items for free. The more often they complete both the shepard and hero quest the better the items.

Well that's just the overview of what should happen to the killing player, the town that lost the guard, and how bystanding good samaritans might be able to or be forced to help. The difficulty and intricacies of the fall out quests should be left to the designers to hammer out the details.

GW2 designers had something like this in mind before they developed the game, it's a good cycle of quests and incentivizes interaction with the community and the game environment. I'm proposing this game takes it to the next level.

Shunravi · February 2015

Dave2836 wrote: »

I believe guards should be killable, but with a heavy price:

1-Guards should have the same difficulty as a 12 person raid boss.
2-Killing of a guard should grant legendary gear that must be laundered.
3-Killing of a guard should affect the perpetrating player in terms of constant harassment in all cities unless the perpetrating players fullfil certain quest requirements, we'll call this a redemption quest.
4-The loss of a guard in a city will make that city overrun with mobs and players must fulfill writs or fight off a certain number of mobs before they can access the bank or get more quests.
5-Any non perpetrating player who helps a criminal player on their redemption quest should be rewarded, maybe a key to that victim city that opens all the doors and chests and lootable objects wirhout being a fugitive. The helping player shall have a title like "Shepard of Redemption.".
6-The Shepard of Redemption title should be stackable, and every time the quest is completed, they get an item or title when equipped grants a buff.
7-If the shepard of redemption also participates in restoring the city as described in #4, they should also recieve the title "hero of x township" and talking to npcs of x township will get items for free. The more often they complete both the shepard and hero quest the better the items.

Well that's just the overview of what should happen to the killing player, the town that lost the guard, and how bystanding good samaritans might be able to or be forced to help. The difficulty and intricacies of the fall out quests should be left to the designers to hammer out the details.

GW2 designers had something like this in mind before they developed the game, it's a good cycle of quests and incentivizes interaction with the community and the game environment. I'm proposing this game takes it to the next level.

No

What you describe would be possibly the worst thing they could do. It would cause a perpetual killing spree of 24 man raids to constantly wipe out towns. Making them killable may already trigger this, but giving a reward on top of it? There would never be any ceasefire in towns and cities. It would be like constant healspam, but with all abilities, and all the time. Try to do anything, even talk to quest npcs with all that going on.

Or I could be wrong. But still, no matter their difficulty, I feel that any kind of loot or redemption system would be maliciously exploited.

Dave2836 · February 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

Dave2836 wrote: »

I believe guards should be killable, but with a heavy price:

1-Guards should have the same difficulty as a 12 person raid boss.
2-Killing of a guard should grant legendary gear that must be laundered.
3-Killing of a guard should affect the perpetrating player in terms of constant harassment in all cities unless the perpetrating players fullfil certain quest requirements, we'll call this a redemption quest.
4-The loss of a guard in a city will make that city overrun with mobs and players must fulfill writs or fight off a certain number of mobs before they can access the bank or get more quests.
5-Any non perpetrating player who helps a criminal player on their redemption quest should be rewarded, maybe a key to that victim city that opens all the doors and chests and lootable objects wirhout being a fugitive. The helping player shall have a title like "Shepard of Redemption.".
6-The Shepard of Redemption title should be stackable, and every time the quest is completed, they get an item or title when equipped grants a buff.
7-If the shepard of redemption also participates in restoring the city as described in #4, they should also recieve the title "hero of x township" and talking to npcs of x township will get items for free. The more often they complete both the shepard and hero quest the better the items.

Well that's just the overview of what should happen to the killing player, the town that lost the guard, and how bystanding good samaritans might be able to or be forced to help. The difficulty and intricacies of the fall out quests should be left to the designers to hammer out the details.

GW2 designers had something like this in mind before they developed the game, it's a good cycle of quests and incentivizes interaction with the community and the game environment. I'm proposing this game takes it to the next level.

No

What you describe would be possibly the worst thing they could do. It would cause a perpetual killing spree of 24 man raids to constantly wipe out towns. Making them killable may already trigger this, but giving a reward on top of it? There would never be any ceasefire in towns and cities. It would be like constant healspam, but with all abilities, and all the time. Try to do anything, even talk to quest npcs with all that going on.

The killing spree raids will stop when the perpetrators run out of resources. They cant repair equip, cant access bank, cant create gear(no bank access), cant get quests except the redemption quest. If the devs are evil enough, might even cut off wayshrine and mail access to fugitives.

Its just a raw outline that needs some finetuning and no where a completed scenario. The non fugitive players can find content in both the town hero and redemption roles. Shooting down ideas is something I'm very familiar with but constructive (alternative) feedback is more important to getting these ideas across to the designers.

Shunravi · February 2015

Dave2836 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Dave2836 wrote: »

I believe guards should be killable, but with a heavy price:

1-Guards should have the same difficulty as a 12 person raid boss.
2-Killing of a guard should grant legendary gear that must be laundered.
3-Killing of a guard should affect the perpetrating player in terms of constant harassment in all cities unless the perpetrating players fullfil certain quest requirements, we'll call this a redemption quest.
4-The loss of a guard in a city will make that city overrun with mobs and players must fulfill writs or fight off a certain number of mobs before they can access the bank or get more quests.
5-Any non perpetrating player who helps a criminal player on their redemption quest should be rewarded, maybe a key to that victim city that opens all the doors and chests and lootable objects wirhout being a fugitive. The helping player shall have a title like "Shepard of Redemption.".
6-The Shepard of Redemption title should be stackable, and every time the quest is completed, they get an item or title when equipped grants a buff.
7-If the shepard of redemption also participates in restoring the city as described in #4, they should also recieve the title "hero of x township" and talking to npcs of x township will get items for free. The more often they complete both the shepard and hero quest the better the items.

Well that's just the overview of what should happen to the killing player, the town that lost the guard, and how bystanding good samaritans might be able to or be forced to help. The difficulty and intricacies of the fall out quests should be left to the designers to hammer out the details.

GW2 designers had something like this in mind before they developed the game, it's a good cycle of quests and incentivizes interaction with the community and the game environment. I'm proposing this game takes it to the next level.

No

What you describe would be possibly the worst thing they could do. It would cause a perpetual killing spree of 24 man raids to constantly wipe out towns. Making them killable may already trigger this, but giving a reward on top of it? There would never be any ceasefire in towns and cities. It would be like constant healspam, but with all abilities, and all the time. Try to do anything, even talk to quest npcs with all that going on.

The killing spree raids will stop when the perpetrators run out of resources. They cant repair equip, cant access bank, cant create gear(no bank access), cant get quests except the redemption quest. If the devs are evil enough, might even cut off wayshrine and mail access to fugitives.

Its just a raw outline that needs some finetuning and no where a completed scenario. The non fugitive players can find content in both the town hero and redemption roles. Shooting down ideas is something I'm very familiar with but constructive (alternative) feedback is more important to getting these ideas across to the designers.

I'm all for creative designs, and I'm not necessarily trying to shoot down your idea right off the bat. But it just seems way to open for exploitation. Sure, there are ways that it could work...

But, I can see it now. A group gets together to kill guards. Their buddies wait until they do their redemption quests and then help them with that. So now there is a legendary drop for killing the guard, and free items for the guy who sheparded. And then they repeat it. It doesn't even have to be with the same guys.

Then there is the issue of griefing. If, when the guards die, the town becomes unuseable, that makes exactly the situation people are dreading most.

So how do you prevent a player from killing the guards over and over? You make the penalties steeper? Limit redemption quests? How do you then make it so a character does not become 100% unplayable? Even worse if it's made account wide. The only solution would be to have the redemption render the killing void by return of equal value to what was taken. So, this then renders the first bit of the suggestion void, because there would be no reward.

But then, what kind of bonus does the Sheppard get? Would it be worth exploiting the cycle to obtain? If it is, then people will exploit it.

I'm not saying it can't be made to work, but unless done exactly right, it is too open to abuse.

starkerealm · February 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Guards are fine as they are

The ability spam is a little hard to justify. I mean, why is Tamriel is loaded to the gills with guards who double as Dragon Knight instructors on their weekends.

UrQuan · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

How is killing generic NPCs harmful to other players?

Maybe once you work this out, you might understand why at least a couple of us are against this.

Thats the problem I can't work it out. I see no draw back to it, other than COMPLETELY pointless ones, and no one is telling me their reasons or giving me any base to see any real reason against it.

The only reason I can think of is pure cosmetic reasons of "Oh, I liked how that guy looks, now I am sad that I have to wait 30 seconds for him to respawn".

Here's part of what you're not seeing: gold farmers. Allowing guards to be killed opens the system up to potential abuse by gold farmers.

Here's how you do it.

You have a few accounts for killing the guards. How many you have depends on how easily killed the guards are.

You have, say, 12 accounts for farming gold (I picked 12 because that way they can all be in a big group).

The guard-killers keep the gold farming accounts safe by slaughtering the guards.

The gold farming accounts slaughter NPCs freely, with no repercussions.

Each gold farming account has 8 characters, each with maximum passives in legerdemain to allow maximum fencing of stolen goods.

I don't know what the maximum number of stolen goods ends up as from maximum passives, but since the first rank is 110, let's just say 250 to be conservative. If the average price for a stolen item is 250, then each gold farming account is going to make 500,000 gold per day (250 X 250 X 8). The group of 12 accounts doing this will make 6,000,000 gold per day.

With unkillable guards it would take way more time and effort for each gold farming account to even come close to that.

firstdecan · February 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Guards are fine as they are

The ability spam is a little hard to justify. I mean, why is Tamriel is loaded to the gills with guards who double as Dragon Knight instructors on their weekends.

I have to agree the guards are fine. They're not killable, but it's not that difficult to outrun them. It's not easy, but once you've managed it once or twice it's just another repetitive game mechanic.

heith182ub17_ESO · February 2015

EDIT: I want to point out that even invulnerable guards can be kept busy while others loot the town. I watched a group in Craglorn keep a guard busy for a while. They cannot kill the guard but they can get him to change focus enough to keep the party members alive. They can lead the guards around like they are on a leash.[/quote]

sounds almost like player made content, might be cool if that guard had to yell for help when facing an organized group.
l could see bandit guilds forming.. i'm in!

Athas24 · February 2015

I wouldn't have a problem with kill-able guards even if people were wiping out npcs. He already stated quest givers, important npcs, bankers etc cannot be killed. What do I care if every other random dolt in town is dead from waves of VR 14's with nothing to do?

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

Well, they did just reduce the sell price of items from NPCs, so gold farming is becoming even less effective.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

Guards are just annoying, and they can be easily avoidable, but it would be more fun and make more sense if they can die.

DanielMaxwell · February 2015

Until they implement the PvP portion of the justice system having the guards be unkillable makes since .

When they do implement the PvP portion of the Justice system , the guards will have to be killable , otherwise the players who wish to be guards will not be able to fulfill that role with the NPC guards killing off the criminal PCs.

Everyone should remember this is an MMO so other players preferred play styles will have an unwanted effect on your game play , there will have to be compromises so that most players can have a game play experience that they can enjoy most of the time .

Bullwraithb14_ESO · February 2015

Guards are fine as they are.

Draehl · February 2015

Certain features and functionality you might like from the single player games aren't present because it is an MMO. Just like some MMO features aren't present because its an Elder Scrolls game. This is a simply case where there is far more to gain from guards not being killable. Even if a system *could* be developed you have to consider development time. Both for the release of patch 1.6 as well as wasting development time on something minor like this that could be spend on more important features.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Nihil wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

Drawberrry wrote: »

Doesn't bother me
The guard's are suppose to be the best of the best to protect their kingdom after all...

They should have sent them to save Tamriel instead of all these unnamed heros then

but all guards use to be adventures like us before they took an arrow to the knee

No, that won't happen for like another 400 years or something.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · February 2015

I actually like it the way it is, with the guards being immortal, I like to sneak around and steal but to be a good thief you need to be aware of your surroundings and be as sneaky as you can be.

The tough / unkillable guards brings me back to the days of the game "Thief the dark project" where the guards are way more powerful than you were, and yes I know you could kill them in that game but... that was a single player game not a MMO.

Sneaking around with a Bounty and still stealing things and getting away with it while the guards are right under foot is awesome and fun, the challenge of getting caught and killed is still there.. it brings a challenge and excitement to the table.

Everytime I make a mistake and pickpocket the wrong NPC and they either attack me or call the guards or something and such, it is like a "Oh Crap" moment.. "Damn, I gotta escape now..."

One of my guildies had a small bounty on him and wasn't looking while we were talking and a guard got too close to him and did a stop and frisk (LOL) and my guildy wasn't ready for it and took too long coughing up a bounty or deciding to run and the guard attacked him and then killed him.. I was looking through my inventory (I didn't have a bounty at that time and was a upstanding citizen when this happened) and bam it happened really fast and he was killed..

I was like WTF happened... he was like "a guard just killed me.." and he was a little pissed but I was like, "Did you have a Bounty?" his answer- "Yeah a small one.." I replied "Well you got to be careful.." so now he is always on the lookout for guards ever since that incident..

People are right that if we could kill guards that us Outlaws would team up (yeah we would

) and just slaughter them and then just FARM the town over and over for Gold.

So, yes the guards are immortal..I see it as a challenge..others whine about it..

Live with it or don't.. I like it, so I will live with it and continue to play..

Aoife32001 · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

The guards are supposed to be invincible. You aren't supposed to be able to beat them or get away from them. Working as intended. This isn't just for the PTS either, it was intended to be this way when it goes live as well.

I think that really takes away from the potential fun of the system. They should be really hard, yes, but they should be killable at least, that way its possible to do things like kill them for RP purposes, and escape after breaking the law.

And that would be fine for RP purposes, but ESO consists of more than just RP players. There would be literally thousands of griefers and jackwagons that would constantly go from town to town slaughtering everyone and everything and stealing as they go just to be doing it. How would that add to your immersion as an RP'er if everyone was dead in every town you went to every day?

This. 1000x this

wraith808 · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

@Cody

Again, what would they grief???

Just offhand, I can think of the fact that you get a few buddies together and group. One of you go around on spree of burglary, murder, and mayhem. The others keep the guards dead. You rotate as needed so that everyone profits and advances in skills.

...and that's just off the top of my head.

Alphashado · February 2015

I get away from them all the time. Just gotta be crafty. Use those class skills. Pop Shadow Cloak if you are a NB, then run around a corner and hide. Break their cc/sprint away. They aren't immune to roots. CC them and sprint like hell. Etc. Lots of ways to get away from them. It's actually pretty dam fun when you have 2 or 3 of them chasing you while yelling and screaming at you lol.

Another trick is to keep breaking their los (line of sight). If they cant' see you, they can't use chains on you. So constantly run around corners, jump over walls, etc

TheShadowScout · February 2015

I would like to see guards with a reasonable power level instead of godmode...

But I also know there must be some mechanic to keep stuff like was mentioned from happening, because some people WILL wipe out whole towns on a weekly basis if they can find a way, just for kicks.

Still think the best way would be making the city guard two-pip strength like in Cyrodil, but every time one is killed, two or three more hunt down the killer, eventually plowing anyone under by sheer weight of numbers.
Which would mean, killing one guard may perhaps give you a sm all window to run out of town as fast as you can before the reinforcements come to slap you into respawn land.

And... I am liking the idea of a persistent "guard killer" or "outlaw" effect that you keep through respawns if you do take one down, until you remove it through some quest.
One that would give you a chance of the law coming after you whatever you do, wherever you flee to.
And/or flag you as attackable by anyone and everyone. so each player could come after you to collect the bounty come the PvP part of the justice system.

heith182ub17_ESO · February 2015

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Until they implement the PvP portion of the justice system having the guards be unkillable makes since .

When they do implement the PvP portion of the Justice system , the guards will have to be killable , otherwise the players who wish to be guards will not be able to fulfill that role with the NPC guards killing off the criminal PCs.

Everyone should remember this is an MMO so other players preferred play styles will have an unwanted effect on your game play , there will have to be compromises so that most players can have a game play experience that they can enjoy most of the time .

all that he said is truth.. the potential is there for some fun sandbox, pvp, and RP

Iluvrien · February 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And... I am liking the idea of a persistent "guard killer" or "outlaw" effect that you keep through respawns if you do take one down, until you remove it through some quest.

This made me think. It would amuse me if there was a "Famous Last Stand!" quest that was awarded for being an outlaw. It would function as a self-triggered instance... it would whisk you away to a cave, or a crag or a locked dwelling with your character, a now surrounded fugitive, being advanced upon by waves of guards. Your character is definitely going down, but how illustrious will your fall be?

There could be a separate leaderboard for the Famous(ist) of the Last Stands (to encourage people to actually give it a try rather than just stripping naked and triggering the instance) and there could be rewards made available to the character (and possibly the playback made available for the viewing pleasure of the rest of us) if they topped the board (with periodic resets). Having impressively died standing again The Law the title might be cleared (possibly only after a certain level of attainment) and the character could go back to their life of crime.

Probably entirely unworkable... but the image of waves of lawpersons diving in and being repulsed before eventually dragging the miscreant down appealed to me.

BoloBoffin · February 2015

Maybe don't steal things.

Iago · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

The guards are supposed to be invincible. You aren't supposed to be able to beat them or get away from them. Working as intended. This isn't just for the PTS either, it was intended to be this way when it goes live as well. Otherwise, players would just enter a town and slaughter everyone and steal everything with no consequence.

Why couldn't they just have guards respawn like they do in prior ES games?