PTS 1.6 - Decrease Guard Toughness

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

The only way they can make the guards kill able would to restrict the targeting of NPCs for killing to flavor NPCs while making vendors , quest givers , bankers , and any other NPC that is need to progress the games storyline .

If they make the guards kill able they should be made equal to a two pip elite boss in the open game world with a respawn time of .5 to 2 seconds coupled with a doubling mechanic on each respawn (i.e. every time you kill 1 guard two more spawn) .

This would prevent the griefers from killing off the vital NPCs in the town while allowing the players who are "breaking" the in game laws a chance to escape or kill the guards .

Have you not been on the PTS at all?

The guards are 3 or 4 pip super elites. You can't attack bankers, quest givers, quest npcs, or merchants.

Flavor NPCs respawn in a couple of minutes. Super quick. Like 5 minutes tops.

And so far I haven't seen a point where I couldn't loot one of the NPCs I've killed.

That fact, coupled with the respawn rate, added to hypothetical scenario where guards are killable? A small group could wipe a town clean for hours on end, raking in cash and making the value of gold in the guild trader system that of water.

Gemseed · February 2015

Killable but with significant group effort? And of course all those involved gain increased bounty. I would agree to that.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

Its completely dumb to not allow people to kill guards, as unkillable guards serves no purpose and prevents nothing, as everything that has been said here is perfectly do-able just by being smart and avoiding them by a few feet. I feel some people don't know how the justice system really works.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

@Iluvrien‌

If a significant NPC with a real purpose could be killed, it would be a bug, and I am sure if it was abused repeatedly that ZOS would hotfix it, as there would be a major outcry from the community, as there is with any such bug.

I am sure right now vendors and quest givers can't be killed right now (I am throwing fireballs at one and nothing is happening)

I don't see any real negative effects to people killing generic NPCs. Here are my thoughts:

Scenario 1: Person1 walks into town, bunch of generic NPCs walking around, killable guards, people killing generic NPCs and guards. Person1 sees his quest giver at the end of the street, walks over there, grabs quest, moves on, possibly joins in on the fight and has a good time and makes a little side money (50 sell limit).

Scenario 2: Person2 walks into town, bunch of generic NPCs walking around, unkillable guards, people still killing generic NPCs around town. Person2 walks over to quest giver, on the way accidently left clicks and hits a mob. Person2 kills the mob, but now has bounty, but thinks nothing of it. Person2 meets angry guard. Angry guard is a god, kills Person 2 because he cannot defend himself and live, and tries to run away but gets stun/pulled. Person2 gets killed, is angry, has to walk back and just wasted his precious time.

See, I really don't see a negative draw back to being able to kill guards, it has little to no effect on the game if it were to be allowed, other than a QoL improvement for some people. They prevent nothing, as people still kill NPCs with them being unkillable, they are just annoying and possibly hinder the game for others. Sure, there will be sounds of fighting, big deal.

Many of the generic NPCs only serve the purpose of being justice system targets, as many of them I don't recall ever seeing before, and besides that, the generic NPCs only serve to populate the towns, which they are going to die anyway, with or without god guards, so really here is no purpose to not kill guards.

I'm done with this conversation.

But hey, keep banging your drum.

Go get em, killer. Fight the good fight!

Maybe they'll listen to you.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

The only way they can make the guards kill able would to restrict the targeting of NPCs for killing to flavor NPCs while making vendors , quest givers , bankers , and any other NPC that is need to progress the games storyline .

If they make the guards kill able they should be made equal to a two pip elite boss in the open game world with a respawn time of .5 to 2 seconds coupled with a doubling mechanic on each respawn (i.e. every time you kill 1 guard two more spawn) .

This would prevent the griefers from killing off the vital NPCs in the town while allowing the players who are "breaking" the in game laws a chance to escape or kill the guards .

Have you not been on the PTS at all?

The guards are 3 or 4 pip super elites. You can't attack bankers, quest givers, quest npcs, or merchants.

Flavor NPCs respawn in a couple of minutes. Super quick. Like 5 minutes tops.

And so far I haven't seen a point where I couldn't loot one of the NPCs I've killed.

That fact, coupled with the respawn rate, added to hypothetical scenario where guards are killable? A small group could wipe a town clean for hours on end, raking in cash and making the value of gold in the guild trader system that of water.

HOW are you getting this illusion that people are going to get BANK RICH off this?????

Again, heres the break down:

Kill NPCs for 1 hour - Use up all 50 sell slots. I have say 100 Inventory slots, I fill those up and can't loot anymore. Whats the damn point to keep going, I finish WAY before my hour is up, maybe after 20 minutes, because NPCs drop 1-multiple things when they die, so my inventory fills up. I now need to wait till tomorrow to sell another 50, but oh wait, my bags are already filled, so I don't need to kill until tomorrow, and it took me less than an hour to fill my bags.

THERE IS NO SUSTAINABLE CONSTANT CASH FLOW FROM THIS THAT IS SIGNIFICANT. Its chump change at best, maybe a small decent amount with the passive, but I think the passive is a little bugged atm (aka PTS).

I am failing to see where you are getting this illusion of dollar signs from.

Amsel_McKay · February 2015

All the towns on PTS are "Dead Bodies Everywhere"... so I guess who cares if we add guards to that pile!

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

The only way they can make the guards kill able would to restrict the targeting of NPCs for killing to flavor NPCs while making vendors , quest givers , bankers , and any other NPC that is need to progress the games storyline .

If they make the guards kill able they should be made equal to a two pip elite boss in the open game world with a respawn time of .5 to 2 seconds coupled with a doubling mechanic on each respawn (i.e. every time you kill 1 guard two more spawn) .

This would prevent the griefers from killing off the vital NPCs in the town while allowing the players who are "breaking" the in game laws a chance to escape or kill the guards .

Have you not been on the PTS at all?

The guards are 3 or 4 pip super elites. You can't attack bankers, quest givers, quest npcs, or merchants.

Flavor NPCs respawn in a couple of minutes. Super quick. Like 5 minutes tops.

And so far I haven't seen a point where I couldn't loot one of the NPCs I've killed.

That fact, coupled with the respawn rate, added to hypothetical scenario where guards are killable? A small group could wipe a town clean for hours on end, raking in cash and making the value of gold in the guild trader system that of water.

HOW are you getting this illusion that people are going to get BANK RICH off this?????

Again, heres the break down:

Kill NPCs for 1 hour - Use up all 50 sell slots. I have say 100 Inventory slots, I fill those up and can't loot anymore. Whats the damn point to keep going, I finish WAY before my house is up, because NPCs drop 1-multiple things when they die, so my inventory fills up. I now need to wait till tomorrow to sell another 50, but oh wait, my bags are already filled, so I don't need to kill until tomorrow, and it took me less than an hour to fill my bags.

THERE IS NO SUSTAINABLE CONSTANT CASH FLOW FROM THIS THAT IS SIGNIFICANT. Its chump change at best, maybe a small decent amount with the passive, but I think the passive is a little bugged atm (aka PTS).

I am failing to see where you are getting this illusion of dollar signs from.

IT'S NOT JUST 50 SELL SLOTS.

Putting 1 point into the passive gives you 110 sell/launder slots. Putting another point into that passive increases that amount by whatever%.

I'm not talking about people just starting off with the justice system.

Committing any amount of time to this with all the bag upgrades and all the horse bound inventory upgrades and you can make a significant amount of money.

CORRECTION: 110 not 120

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

The only way they can make the guards kill able would to restrict the targeting of NPCs for killing to flavor NPCs while making vendors , quest givers , bankers , and any other NPC that is need to progress the games storyline .

If they make the guards kill able they should be made equal to a two pip elite boss in the open game world with a respawn time of .5 to 2 seconds coupled with a doubling mechanic on each respawn (i.e. every time you kill 1 guard two more spawn) .

This would prevent the griefers from killing off the vital NPCs in the town while allowing the players who are "breaking" the in game laws a chance to escape or kill the guards .

Have you not been on the PTS at all?

The guards are 3 or 4 pip super elites. You can't attack bankers, quest givers, quest npcs, or merchants.

Flavor NPCs respawn in a couple of minutes. Super quick. Like 5 minutes tops.

And so far I haven't seen a point where I couldn't loot one of the NPCs I've killed.

That fact, coupled with the respawn rate, added to hypothetical scenario where guards are killable? A small group could wipe a town clean for hours on end, raking in cash and making the value of gold in the guild trader system that of water.

HOW are you getting this illusion that people are going to get BANK RICH off this?????

Again, heres the break down:

Kill NPCs for 1 hour - Use up all 50 sell slots. I have say 100 Inventory slots, I fill those up and can't loot anymore. Whats the damn point to keep going, I finish WAY before my house is up, because NPCs drop 1-multiple things when they die, so my inventory fills up. I now need to wait till tomorrow to sell another 50, but oh wait, my bags are already filled, so I don't need to kill until tomorrow, and it took me less than an hour to fill my bags.

THERE IS NO SUSTAINABLE CONSTANT CASH FLOW FROM THIS THAT IS SIGNIFICANT. Its chump change at best, maybe a small decent amount with the passive, but I think the passive is a little bugged atm (aka PTS).

I am failing to see where you are getting this illusion of dollar signs from.

IT'S NOT JUST 50 SELL SLOTS.

Putting 1 point into the passive gives you 120 sell/launder slots. Putting another point into that passive increases that amount by whatever%.

I'm not talking about people just starting off with the justice system.

Committing any amount of time to this with all the bag upgrades and all the horse bound inventory upgrades and you can make a significant amount of money.

Ok, and how are guards preventing this from happening? I don't see it. Here is what I see:Players killing NPCs, guard starts walking over, players side step out of his range, guard walks on by, players keep fighting.

By removing the GOD MODE from the guards, players might engage in a fight with them, and might actually run the risk of dying, but as it stands, they are going to prevent that all together by sidestepping.

Don't forget, guards don't spawn on the corpses of NPCs like in other MMOs.

Also, I think the 120% increase is a bug, 100% a bug. That should MAYBE be like 2 extra sell slots per skill point. Remember, this is the PTS after all, these bugs happen.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Trafficker - Increases the number of fence interactions you can use each day by 120%.

You can place 4 points into this passive, allowing for a max of 1,166 sell/launder slots per day as long as the percentage stays at an increase of 120% with each point.

Should the percentage drop after the 2nd point is allocated the maximum number is subject to change.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

The way people are talking, it almost sounds like you are expecting the guards to ruin a system that ZOS is intentionally putting in (Killing NPCs), by preventing it altogether. No, that shouldn't be the case, what would the point of even putting the justice system in then be? Also, remember, keep in mind that guards are only protecting generic NPCs, not significant ones, so them being god mode is to only prevent that NPC that move 2 feet, rakes, then moves back 2 feet, being completely useless.

How is killing generic NPCs harmful to other players? Sure, you can make a little gold off it, but you can make a little gold off anything, and I think the sell passive is bugged.

DanielMaxwell · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

The only way they can make the guards kill able would to restrict the targeting of NPCs for killing to flavor NPCs while making vendors , quest givers , bankers , and any other NPC that is need to progress the games storyline .

If they make the guards kill able they should be made equal to a two pip elite boss in the open game world with a respawn time of .5 to 2 seconds coupled with a doubling mechanic on each respawn (i.e. every time you kill 1 guard two more spawn) .

This would prevent the griefers from killing off the vital NPCs in the town while allowing the players who are "breaking" the in game laws a chance to escape or kill the guards .

Have you not been on the PTS at all?

The guards are 3 or 4 pip super elites. You can't attack bankers, quest givers, quest npcs, or merchants.

Flavor NPCs respawn in a couple of minutes. Super quick. Like 5 minutes tops.

And so far I haven't seen a point where I couldn't loot one of the NPCs I've killed.

That fact, coupled with the respawn rate, added to hypothetical scenario where guards are killable? A small group could wipe a town clean for hours on end, raking in cash and making the value of gold in the guild trader system that of water.

Yes I have and I am aware of the strength of the guards on the PTS . I am also aware that certain NPCs are not target able .

The thing is so long as the NPCs(vendors ,bankers, quest givers and quest flagged NPCs) need for the PVE portion of the game are not kill able the griefers can not shutdown the town . Under those conditions there is no need for the guards to be 3-4 pip super elites that are unkillable but the guards do need to be strong enough to make killing them difficult hence why I suggested making them into 2 pip elites equal to 2 pip open world bosses .

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Trafficker - Increases the number of fence interactions you can use each day by 120%.

You can place 4 points into this passive, allowing for a max of 1,166 sell/launder slots per day as long as the percentage stays at an increase of 120% with each point.

Should the percentage drop after the 2nd point is allocated the maximum number is subject to change.

I think the problem in question is more that passive than it is the guards. Like I said, guards do nothing to prevent people from farming NPCs to use this passive, other than being road blocks. I just killed 20 NPCs and looted them before even seeing a guard, so they are useless.

We should focus more on the passive, and reduce it to like 10-20%, not 120%.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Might be a bug, might not be. Percentage of increase might change, it might not.

Fact of the matter is, they're not going to make guards killable.

Regardless of whatever argument you can think up and throw at them, they're not going to do it.

But hey, as I said, good luck!

Iluvrien · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

How is killing generic NPCs harmful to other players?

Maybe once you work this out, you might understand why at least a couple of us are against this.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

I have said my pieces for tonight, hopefully people read what I have said and actually see that I am saying things that make logical sense if they think about it. Anyway, I wish this thread good luck for tonight, and I hope ZOS sees reason and does the following:

Addresses the passive and changes the numbers

Removes guard God Mode, as it is unfun and serves no purpose at all and is 100% pointless.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

How is killing generic NPCs harmful to other players?

Maybe once you work this out, you might understand why at least a couple of us are against this.

Thats the problem I can't work it out. I see no draw back to it, other than COMPLETELY pointless ones, and no one is telling me their reasons or giving me any base to see any real reason against it.

The only reason I can think of is pure cosmetic reasons of "Oh, I liked how that guy looks, now I am sad that I have to wait 30 seconds for him to respawn".

Iluvrien · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

Thats the problem I can't work it out. I see no draw back to it, other than COMPLETELY pointless ones, and no one is telling me their reasons or giving me any base to see any real reason against it.

The only reason I can think of is pure cosmetic reasons of "Oh, I liked how that guy looks, now I am sad that I have to wait 30 seconds for him to respawn".

People have given you reasons. You don't agree with them, or you consider them "COMPLETELY pointless", upon which basis you say that you haven't been answered all.

Here's a thought, what if the things that are pointless to you aren't the same things that are pointless to other people. What a funny world that would be, eh?

[Edit: To remove evidence that the evil demon-weasels forced me to write this post using incorrectly spelled words.]

Cody · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

@Cody

Again, what would they grief???

People keep saying "They will grief the system" when there is nothing of any significant value to grief. Saying "People will grief the system" means absolutely nothing, its like saying "The object is a thing". All of have accomplished is identifying an obvious fact, that it exists, and thats it. No characteristics of anything, just that it exists.

All that can be killed are generic, walk around the town and make noise, NPCs..... thats it. There is no way I have found to kill significant NPCs, and if a way could be found and exploited, it would be a BUG and would be fixed by ZOS, especially if it became a serious issue.

If people are going to get all uptight and hurt over generic NPCs getting killed, then I feel that they really don't fit in MMOs, and should consider single player games. The only bad thing that can happen is that people will be in towns more often, NPCs will die a lot (as the system allows for and works as intended with), and you may need to compete a little for pickpocketing or killing generic Bob in the corner there. Killing guards with that decreases very little in the grand scheme of things.

PEOPLE WOULD FIND A WAY. Heck people can trick un-knowing players into healing them while being chased by guards, and getting the un-suspecting player killed by said guards AND lose gold in the process. That is in the PTS; imagine once it goes live.

it would also be immersion breaking. Yes; immersion is important in an MMO. Not all of us play only to grind stats and be top dog on the leaderboards. Having the town guard routinely slaughtered would be a HUGE break on immersion. This is not a single player game, where its only you. You have to be considerate of actual people in this game. I myself would grow tired of seeing hundreds of guard corpses in the city streets. A town without town guards makes no sense, and I guarantee that people would notice that and rage like heck over it.

and I will once again emphasize: PEOPLE WOULD FIND A WAY TO GRIEVE. Never underestimate people. If players can get thru locked gates to steal scrolls without capping the required keeps, those kinds of people could find a way to grieve if the guards could be killed. Heck they could probably even find a way to grieve now.

Spiritreaver_ESO · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

BEFORE READING THIS- KEEP IN MIND THE IMPORTANT FACT THAT ONLY GENERIC NPCS CAN BE KILLED BY THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, NOT QUEST GIVERS, VENDORS, BANKERS, ETC.

Just dabbling around on the PTS right now before I get ready to end my day, and I keep feeling like the guards are cities and towns are WAY to strong right now. If they could be tuned down a little bit to a point where they can be killed solo, that would make it a bit more fun. Also, if they could be tweaked a bit so they don't chain pull and grip you to the ground as much, that would be neat also.

The thing is, as it stands, it is really hard to get away from them, so taking an escape route if you get caught while committing a crime is next to impossible, and killing them right now is, I believe, impossible (I saw a group of people try and kill one and they all died). I think that a person should be able to kill a guard, since right now, the unkillable guards takes away from anyone trying to RP as a bandit or a marauder or assassin or something like that, as they have to fight basically gods.

Just my thoughts on it so far.

P.S. - If it could be tweaked so that if you kill all witnesses to a crime, the bounty goes away, that would be neat. Idk if its like that already, doesn't seem to be, but I think, if it is, it might be affected by pets.

Interesting idea OP, but this is one of those times where MMO mentality has to win out over TES-ness. I haven't done a bunch of thinking about how to implement what you want, but a possible unintended result sprang to mind as i was reading the above quoted post.

RMT

Now of course some gold-farming outfit would have to decided it was worth it. But this is one of those times where shutting the door on possible trouble is totally worth the the slight inconvenience to a few players.

Just my thought on your suggestion anyways.

Govalon · February 2015

If we have guards like these, why do we need to save tamriel from Molag bal? Just send one guard to do all the dirty work.

Beerbill · February 2015

Just make guards like a hydra every time you kill one your bounty increases and another two come until you are overwhelmed by guards. This should be effective against raids as well they will just keep spamming and increasing in numbers until you can't handle THE LAW

Kalman · February 2015

Everything about guards should stay the same except they SHOULD be kill-able, but their damage mitigation should be extremely high like 95% to 99%. This would make it almost impossible to solo. I mean it is an Elder scrolls game, if a group of players want to go on a killing spree and wipe out all NPCs that can be killed so be it.

KerinKor · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

BEFORE READING THIS- KEEP IN MIND THE IMPORTANT FACT THAT ONLY GENERIC NPCS CAN BE KILLED BY THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, NOT QUEST GIVERS, VENDORS, BANKERS, ETC.

Those 'generic' NPCs are what give cities, towns, hamlets, etc. character and brings the world to life .. I don't want to quest in a wasteland where bored PVPers have ganked the NPCs, I saw that enough in WOW I don't need to see it here too.

You don't have to slaughter my quest givers in order to negatively affect me hugely, killing other NPCs equally hurts my game experience. Go PVP if you want to kill anything but the PVE mobs, you don't need to kill 'greens'.

Nihil · February 2015

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

Drawberrry wrote: »

Doesn't bother me
The guard's are suppose to be the best of the best to protect their kingdom after all...

They should have sent them to save Tamriel instead of all these unnamed heros then

but all guards use to be adventures like us before they took an arrow to the knee

AlexDougherty · February 2015

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

The thing is, as it stands, it is really hard to get away from them, so taking an escape route if you get caught while committing a crime is next to impossible, and killing them right now is, I believe, impossible (I saw a group of people try and kill one and they all died). I think that a person should be able to kill a guard, since right now, the unkillable guards takes away from anyone trying to RP as a bandit or a marauder or assassin or something like that, as they have to fight basically gods.

Fair enough for the escaping the guards, it does need to be doable, if really really hard.

But they are supposed to be unkillable, basically if you fight them you die, no chance of winning, finito, etc.

SG_Celerrimus · February 2015

KerinKor wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

BEFORE READING THIS- KEEP IN MIND THE IMPORTANT FACT THAT ONLY GENERIC NPCS CAN BE KILLED BY THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, NOT QUEST GIVERS, VENDORS, BANKERS, ETC.

Those 'generic' NPCs are what give cities, towns, hamlets, etc. character and brings the world to life .. I don't want to quest in a wasteland where bored PVPers have ganked the NPCs, I saw that enough in WOW I don't need to see it here too.

You don't have to slaughter my quest givers in order to negatively affect me hugely, killing other NPCs equally hurts my game experience. Go PVP if you want to kill anything but the PVE mobs, you don't need to kill 'greens'.

They are going to die anyway at the same rate with the justice system, guards aren't able to prevent that at all really.

Valencer · February 2015

The guards are in a good spot right now. Not impossible to get away from, but not too easy either. The threat of death is there.

It should stay that way.

Metrobius · February 2015

Isnt there a way to steal without killing? Also, what about being stealthy? It would be fun if you could sneak around and steal and even kill an npc here and there if you can catch one alone and get away.
But it should be hard, and if you get caught you should most likely die.
i dont want to see rampant griefing or hoards of players wiping out villages. That would be pretty lame.

Nestor · February 2015

If you want to kill everything on the map, go play a shooter.

Lynx7386 · February 2015

I'm completely against invincible guards. Besides the fact that it is anti-elder scrolls in nature, why is it that some random town guard is vastly more powerful than the hero that defeated molag bal and crushes daedroth like insects?