Do you think taking away other peoples progression is fair ?

Tandor · February 2015

its fair

I suspect that balancing changes may be seen as more contentious in ESO because the game has attracted a lot of players who are new to MMOs as a result of its TES background. However, such changes are common to all MMOs, especially in the first year or so.

Also, whereas a player with a single character is only concerned with that character's performance, developers have to look at the wider picture and aim for balancing across the whole game (particularly so in any game with a PvP element as its the PvP players who scream the loudest about balancing issues). Personally, I never find these sorts of changes a problem, partly because it's the constant evolution of MMOs that attracts me to the genre in the first place, partly because I don't PvP, and also because I always run multiple characters with the result that what I lose with one character I generally gain with another.

Darkonflare15 · February 2015

Maybe they change the armor to make it easier to get rid of vet ranks. Makes since.

WolfingHour · February 2015

its not fair

Joejudas wrote: »

Im making a poll because people are upset about this and im tired of people trying to wordsmith this...so its going to a poll. 1.6 on the pts is full of armor nerfs, skill nerfs and actual character nerfs to stats. Do you think that taking away someone elses stats who might be stronger to offer a lower level player a chance to catch up is fair. I will point out the current system on 1.6 is not going to re-balance anything for more than a week or two.

It's not fair, but it is (unfortunately) necessary. If the VR system was not implemented and if the CP system would have been used instead we would not be in this situation. If the CP system was introduced sooner, when the community was saying about the VR system "this grind doesnt make sense, we need another progression system", rather than later then perhaps we wouldn't be in this mess, but it is far too late for that.

As the other guy says, if ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would have a happy xmas.

And, more and more, I can't shake the felling that TESO was/is nothing but a setting stage for TU.

Titansteele · February 2015

other

You can not please everybody all of the time.

I do get why people are feeling hard done by however. With that said until it hits LIVE it isn't "done"

Joejudas · February 2015

its not fair

Your losing end game PvE people by the minute with this. PvE friends of mine really are leaving the game over this and it truely is just the start. I don't feel bad for the people defending ZOS in this...but I will laugh when I see this goes p2w. I'll be sure to remember everyone who laughed and called me a troll when I warned you all away from alienating the people who play the game the most. o well I guess. I tell you what though....this is the absolutely last game by Zenimax or Bethesda I will ever buy.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · February 2015

other

Given the VR14 end-game community is a small minority, while it may be sad to see them go it isn't going to alter much. You're not the key player demographic many hardcore think they are I'm afraid.

Joejudas · February 2015

its not fair

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Given the VR14 end-game community is a small minority, while it may be sad to see them go it isn't going to alter much. You're not the key player demographic many hardcore think they are I'm afraid.

And the truth finally comes out....this is the problem right here. This is the kind of thing that is going to sink the game. This is the exact kind of person this game is going to cater to after 1.6. Congrats ZOS you get a gold star.

nerevarine1138 · February 2015

dont care

Joejudas wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Given the VR14 end-game community is a small minority, while it may be sad to see them go it isn't going to alter much. You're not the key player demographic many hardcore think they are I'm afraid.

And the truth finally comes out....this is the problem right here. This is the kind of thing that is going to sink the game. This is the exact kind of person this game is going to cater to after 1.6. Congrats ZOS you get a gold star.

Yeah, it's really going to suck when ZO gears their game towards the majority of players.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · February 2015

its not fair

Joejudas wrote: »

Im making a poll because people are upset about this and im tired of people trying to wordsmith this...so its going to a poll. 1.6 on the pts is full of armor nerfs, skill nerfs and actual character nerfs to stats. Do you think that taking away someone elses stats who might be stronger to offer a lower level player a chance to catch up is fair. I will point out the current system on 1.6 is not going to re-balance anything for more than a week or two.

They aren't taking away progression, they are nerfing people across the board and lets face it, it needed to be done.

AshySamurai · February 2015

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

Im making a poll because people are upset about this and im tired of people trying to wordsmith this...so its going to a poll. 1.6 on the pts is full of armor nerfs, skill nerfs and actual character nerfs to stats. Do you think that taking away someone elses stats who might be stronger to offer a lower level player a chance to catch up is fair. I will point out the current system on 1.6 is not going to re-balance anything for more than a week or two.

They aren't taking away progression, they are nerfing people across the board and lets face it, it needed to be done.

Who needed it?

Spiritreaver_ESO · February 2015

its not fair

Joejudas wrote: »

Im making a poll because people are upset about this and im tired of people trying to wordsmith this...so its going to a poll. 1.6 on the pts is full of armor nerfs, skill nerfs and actual character nerfs to stats. Do you think that taking away someone elses stats who might be stronger to offer a lower level player a chance to catch up is fair. I will point out the current system on 1.6 is not going to re-balance anything for more than a week or two.

Voted its not fair. But imo you have yet to prove where your 'progression' was taken from you aside from that raggedy out of context picture you keep trotting out.

Again, show some actual data/proof of the theft and maybe people will take you a bit more seriously.

Joejudas · February 2015

its not fair

Spiritreaver_ESO wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

Im making a poll because people are upset about this and im tired of people trying to wordsmith this...so its going to a poll. 1.6 on the pts is full of armor nerfs, skill nerfs and actual character nerfs to stats. Do you think that taking away someone elses stats who might be stronger to offer a lower level player a chance to catch up is fair. I will point out the current system on 1.6 is not going to re-balance anything for more than a week or two.

Voted its not fair. But imo you have yet to prove where your 'progression' was taken from you aside from that raggedy out of context picture you keep trotting out.

Again, show some actual data/proof of the theft and maybe people will take you a bit more seriously.

If you logged into the PTS and asked a friend about there end game raid gear since I'm sure you don't actually have any they would tell you the same thing I did.

Spiritreaver_ESO · February 2015

its not fair

Joejudas wrote: »

Spiritreaver_ESO wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

Im making a poll because people are upset about this and im tired of people trying to wordsmith this...so its going to a poll. 1.6 on the pts is full of armor nerfs, skill nerfs and actual character nerfs to stats. Do you think that taking away someone elses stats who might be stronger to offer a lower level player a chance to catch up is fair. I will point out the current system on 1.6 is not going to re-balance anything for more than a week or two.

Voted its not fair. But imo you have yet to prove where your 'progression' was taken from you aside from that raggedy out of context picture you keep trotting out.

Again, show some actual data/proof of the theft and maybe people will take you a bit more seriously.

If you logged into the PTS and asked a friend about there end game raid gear since I'm sure you don't actually have any they would tell you the same thing I did.

Not asking a friend, i happen to be asking you to actually back up your accusation. And yet again, you are giving me nadda.

Wolfsspinne · February 2015

its fair

I wonder...
How good or bad is the Twice-Born Star set after all these changes?

Could it be that Twice-Born got "buffed" now that all other sets got kind of nerfed?

Titansteele · February 2015

other

Joejudas wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Given the VR14 end-game community is a small minority, while it may be sad to see them go it isn't going to alter much. You're not the key player demographic many hardcore think they are I'm afraid.

And the truth finally comes out....this is the problem right here. This is the kind of thing that is going to sink the game. This is the exact kind of person this game is going to cater to after 1.6. Congrats ZOS you get a gold star.

Lets assume you are correct and the current group of Vr14 gear focused players leave over this why would that sink the game?
Would history not just repeat itself and a similar group of people form to replace that group through the fullness of time?

I am not intending to troll, I would rather not see anyone leave as so far I have met one idiot on the EU server and I have played since BETA so I rate this community fairly highly as a result but I am curious as to why that would sink the whole game.

Joejudas · February 2015

its not fair

Because it's a slippery slope. The system they are putting in place hurts the longest subbing people first. in the testing I have done on the PTS imo it's going to take to long to offer any reward to casual folks coming into to the game...and they will move on to something else....and in response you will get p2w items in the shop...pushing more folks out.

eliisra · February 2015

I'm not really seeing how ZoS is taking away my progression?

My war rank and alliance passives, all my capped characters, dyes, hard earned achievements and grinded guild passives are still there in 1.6.

Changes to gear, mechanics and class skills are natural parts of all MMO's. In most games gear even becomes obsolete once or twice a year, with a new raid or dungeon clusters being released. Same with FotM builds and skills, stuff changes with patches and updates. So you adapt.

I mean gear or effective builds, it's not a measure of characters progression. It never lasts long enough to fit into that category. It's merely short term tools to achieve progression, like beating a HM raid boss.

Spiritreaver_ESO · February 2015

its not fair

eliisra wrote: »

I'm not really seeing how ZoS is taking away my progression?

My war rank and alliance passives, all my capped characters, dyes, hard earned achievements and grinded guild passives are still there in 1.6.

Changes to gear, mechanics and class skills are natural parts of all MMO's. In most games gear even becomes obsolete once or twice a year, with a new raid or dungeon clusters being released. Same with FotM builds and skills, stuff changes with patches and updates. So you adapt.

I mean gear or effective builds, it's not a measure of characters progression. It never lasts long enough to fit into that category. It's merely short term tools to achieve progression, like beating a HM raid boss.

Hold on there. You are making to much sense. You are bound to be called on it.

Volla · February 2015

good they nerf blocking? = yes
good they nerf cloth for tanking? = yes
good they nerf shield perma block? = yes
good they nerf magica build because of block casting? = yes
good that they make the armours more viable for a purpose? = yes
good they balance gear now with cap gone = yes
good they will take away vr levels? = yes
good they make game more skill based than it is now? = yes

i honestly don't see any viable claims in this guy's post at all.

Titansteele · February 2015

other

I would say the p2w thing is a different discussion to this one and should not be dragged into this. Nobody has a crystal ball and where we are on the same page with regards to p2w items and how evil they are they are not currently on the cards so using them to enforce a view based upon what is in front of us does not really hold water.

The length of time it would take casual and new people coming into the game to get certain rewards is a valid point however. I hope a change is made to the plans based upon all the feedback we have seen so far.

Cheers

Lied · February 2015

dont care

I've just gotten used to it because it happens all the time in MMOs. Often when an expansion comes out it raises the cap while trivializing previous content. IE, when burning crusade came out and invalidated over a year's worth of raiding progression with solo quest gear, (not to mention every expansion after that).

Take away progression, trivialize progression, recalculate progression... whatever, it's all the same thing. It's the same reason I think it's a waste of time to have gear play a large role in PvP when you inevitably end up having brackets (or special campaigns), bolstering mechanics, bandaid/handicap pvp stats, or whatever that's designed specifically to nullify player gaps created by progression.

Or why it's silly to argue for buffing everything else instead of nerfing one thing. Progression/power is relative, earned, and "taken away" one way or another. Which is why, IMO, it's important to enjoy the journey and not only focus on the destination

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · February 2015

other

Joejudas wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Given the VR14 end-game community is a small minority, while it may be sad to see them go it isn't going to alter much. You're not the key player demographic many hardcore think they are I'm afraid.

And the truth finally comes out....this is the problem right here. This is the kind of thing that is going to sink the game. This is the exact kind of person this game is going to cater to after 1.6. Congrats ZOS you get a gold star.

Truth hurts?

I said it is sad to see them go but you said they were leaving over this issue, and if they really are doing so then I'm not about to try to stop them because I think theirs is a classic raqe-quit from elitists who fear their e-peens about to shrivel.

As for what 'kind of player' I am .. I'm one who's sick and tired of this game pandering to the hardcore elite with THREE content updates exclusively targeted at that small minority while the content update that would appeal to the MAJORITY, Orsinium, is now not likely to be seen for over a year after the game's release, nor is more PVP content for those clamouring for that .. hell, the PVP population is likely far larger than that Craglorn and speedrun trials do!

ZOS pandered to the hardcore three times in order to try to appease them, and they still came back screaming for more.

Yes, I'm THAT kind of player, one who believes the majority is far more important the a small clique when it comes to development priorities.

And going back to your leaving 'threat', I simply noted the departure of such small numbers won't be felt, sad as it may be for some.

Feidam · February 2015

I voted other as this is something any mmo pve vet can tell you is normal. Things change. New stuff comes into play old stuff goes out of play. It is the"mmo-ness" of it all. Hell, even pvp vets can tell you things change.

kongkim · February 2015

its fair

Its fine as it happens as a overall thing and to everyone. The game was to easy now will have a lille thing to fight about and get up again. Its part of an overall balance and yah its fine.

technohic · February 2015

not sure

I'm on "not sure" right now. I like to keep away from reading the dramatic takes on the one offs here and there and want to wait to see the big picture. Right now, its those that are making overly dramatic complaints over and over while on the other side is people oversimplifying and minimizing what may be real concerns in there.

In other words, I am not so worried about my gear or how my build has changed (and I already have changed it on live getting ready for 1.6). I am more concerned with if the game is better and more fun. People arguing will not convince me one way or the other. And to go with that, if I just read what everyone says, chances are I see something I don't like without seeing the full picture and I get needlessly upset myself. Been caught in that a couple times already with this patch on PTS until I get home and check it out myself.

Nihil · February 2015

Volla wrote: »

good they nerf blocking? = yes
good they nerf cloth for tanking? = yes
good they nerf shield perma block? = yes
good they nerf magica build because of block casting? = yes
good that they make the armours more viable for a purpose? = yes
good they balance gear now with cap gone = yes
good they will take away vr levels? = yes
good they make game more skill based than it is now? = yes

i honestly don't see any viable claims in this guy's post at all.

The viable part of his claim comes from really the raid armor, with the set purple versions providing only 1 % crit (although gold still has 2 % I believe so the raiders who upgraded their gear I think would have gotten hit just as hard as everyone else in the game) it is considerably weaker then the other sets out there. Raid dps gear was also really heavily sided towards the crit build, which was hit drastically in armor (while spell damage / weapon damage was improved in armor), which now with this change crit builds won't nescessarily be the strongest as the balance between the dps stats in armor (crit, ability score, and weapon/spell damage) favors crit the least (typically). The change of the meta isn't necessarily a bad thing nor that some armor stays with those bonuses, but the changes in stats should be equivalent amongst all armors.

kieso · February 2015

its fair

Welcome to MMO's don't invest too much in the endgame when you think it may change.

#themoreyouknow

Leeric · February 2015

its not fair

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

its all on the pts. Im just tired of people telling me that its reasonable i lose character progress....i figured we should have a poll and put it to a vote. if someone thinks its fair thats their opinion.

Put it to a vote? And that accomplishes what?

Are you a major stockholder? Nope.
Are you a developer? Nope.
Are you a corporate bigwig? Nope.
Are a couple hundred comments (if you get that many) by forum-goers going to influence ZOS? Highly doubtful.

So, if your "vote" has no impact on anything, what's the point?

You state: "...if someone thinks its fair thats their opinion..."

Of course it is; so what's the point of the poll?

Are you serious? Whats the point of your comment then?
This guy....

BBSooner · February 2015

eliisra wrote: »

I'm not really seeing how ZoS is taking away my progression?

My war rank and alliance passives, all my capped characters, dyes, hard earned achievements and grinded guild passives are still there in 1.6.

Changes to gear, mechanics and class skills are natural parts of all MMO's. In most games gear even becomes obsolete once or twice a year, with a new raid or dungeon clusters being released. Same with FotM builds and skills, stuff changes with patches and updates. So you adapt.

I mean gear or effective builds, it's not a measure of characters progression. It never lasts long enough to fit into that category. It's merely short term tools to achieve progression, like beating a HM raid boss.

Have to agree here. Gear becomes devalued (MMOs 101). We've already been told that this is even going to be scheduled with the introduction of seasonal gear, not to mention that we're in a transitional period with game systems and how our characters get effected.

kongkim · February 2015

its fair

BBSooner wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

I'm not really seeing how ZoS is taking away my progression?

My war rank and alliance passives, all my capped characters, dyes, hard earned achievements and grinded guild passives are still there in 1.6.

Changes to gear, mechanics and class skills are natural parts of all MMO's. In most games gear even becomes obsolete once or twice a year, with a new raid or dungeon clusters being released. Same with FotM builds and skills, stuff changes with patches and updates. So you adapt.

I mean gear or effective builds, it's not a measure of characters progression. It never lasts long enough to fit into that category. It's merely short term tools to achieve progression, like beating a HM raid boss.

Have to agree here. Gear becomes devalued (MMOs 101). We've already been told that this is even going to be scheduled with the introduction of seasonal gear, not to mention that we're in a transitional period with game systems and how our characters get effected.

+1 Good post