Justice System "just my opinion"

Rhycroft · January 2015

NPC Reaction
Honestly not really sure how I feel about this at the moment. Sometimes NPC reactions feel immersive, other times not so much. I’ll get back to you on this later. “prolly not though”

City Guard's
Perhaps this is one of the biggest issues I’ve felt personally with this test build. With guards being so overpowered it gives the feeling that the player is living in a linear world, with no real option other than running. Don’t get me wrong guards should be tough but not to the point where it no longer feels like a fight. A good group of players should be allowed the opportunity to defeat a Guard. Honestly we did defeat a daedric prince after all. But then again perhaps this is just a matter of opinion.

Outlaw Refuge’s
First off I love the fact that these areas have multiple entrances around each city they are based in. I also love the design and decor given to these places, however I feel their design falls short of what they should be. Outlaw Refuge’s are too quiet and give the impression as if they are plastic. lifeless backdrops put in place for no other reason than to support system design. These places should be dens of debauchery, wheres the Music? the Drunk? the Bartender? The Shady characters we all love seeing within the Elder Scrolls universe? Maybe I’ve missed it but I’ve seen very little to almost no dialog in these places. On another note, where are the Daedra idols? and their worshipers?

Next on the list “within the same topic” is habitability.
There exist a certain group of players that would love for nothing more than to spend every waking moment in these underground world. “Career Criminals”. Where are their items of habitat? Crafting stations? Keep in mind this is the world of dark arts, mix it up a bit perhaps crafting stations of the more taboo nature?

Now I know this would not be the best idea for every refuge but how about a bank? The world is corrupt Governments are corrupt. Perhaps throw a bank vault into the Refuge’s based in larger or “capital” cities.

“Warning Personal Opinion Incoming”
Outlaw Refuge’s should be cross faction, allowing players from different alliances to grab a drink together or share war stories with each other. Perhaps even the ability to trade items. after all there is no honor among thieves and no greater alliance then coin. Players have been begging for cross faction interaction outside of PVP, this would be the perfect opportunity to deliver that.

To be honest I don’t quite care about stats and numbers, I’ll leave those blanks for others to fill in. I do however Love ESO, hands down the best MMO I’ve ever played, trust me I’ve played my fair share. I just wanted to share my small opinion for once, on how I feel about the matter.

I like many others have had extremely high hopes for the justice system, however I feel as if the mark has been missed. The last thing I want to see within ESO is a plastic backdrop put in place for no other reason than to support a system. We want a living breathing world that we can be a part of. There is without a doubt massive potential here that goes way beyond a simple backdrop. Don’t stop short of what should be the greatest experience possible.

For anyone who has actually taken the time to read through all of this “including my horrible grammar” I would like to say, End Rant.

katkat42 · January 2015

Rhycroft wrote: »

Outlaw Refuge’s
First off I love the fact that these areas have multiple entrances around each city they are based in. I also love the design and decor given to these places, however I feel their design falls short of what they should be. Outlaw Refuge’s are too quiet and give the impression as if they are plastic. lifeless backdrops put in place for no other reason than to support system design. These places should be dens of debauchery, wheres the Music? the Drunk? the Bartender? The Shady characters we all love seeing within the Elder Scrolls universe? Maybe I’ve missed it but I’ve seen very little to almost no dialog in these places. On another note, where are the Daedra idols? and their worshipers?

Next on the list “within the same topic” is habitability.
There exist a certain group of players that would love for nothing more than to spend every waking moment in these underground world. “Career Criminals”. Where are their items of habitat? Crafting stations? Keep in mind this is the world of dark arts, mix it up a bit perhaps crafting stations of the more taboo nature?

This is an excellent suggestion. They should at least have a bar and a cookfire, maybe some cots or barracks scattered around. I'm picturing something like the Thieves' Guild hideout in Skyrim right now, with the bar where the main fence and some of the quest-givers hung out.

Now I know this would not be the best idea for every refuge but how about a bank? The world is corrupt Governments are corrupt. Perhaps throw a bank vault into the Refuge’s based in larger or “capital” cities.

That's not a bad idea, especially given the trouble some people have been running into. They get a KOS-sized bounty, but don't have enough gold in their pockets to pay it off even when killed by guards, and they keep getting killed by the guards on the way to the bank to get enough money to pay it off.

“Warning Personal Opinion Incoming”
Outlaw Refuge’s should be cross faction, allowing players from different alliances to grab a drink together or share war stories with each other. Perhaps even the ability to trade items. after all there is no honor among thieves and no greater alliance then coin. Players have been begging for cross faction interaction outside of PVP, this would be the perfect opportunity to deliver that.

This is a really neat concept.

For anyone who has actually taken the time to read through all of this “including my horrible grammar” I would like to say, End Rant.

Your grammar may not be perfect, but it isn't horrible! No need to apologize for that! :-)

angelyn · January 2015

Rhycroft wrote: »

Outlaw Refuge’s
These places should be dens of debauchery, wheres the Music? the Drunk? the Bartender? The Shady characters we all love seeing within the Elder Scrolls universe? Maybe I’ve missed it but I’ve seen very little to almost no dialog in these places. On another note, where are the Daedra idols? and their worshipers?

Now THAT sounds awesome! Perhaps:

Drunken revellers like in the Ban Dar's party (Reapers March Quest)
Gambling like in Hadran's caravan area (Lizard Racing/SpikeBall/Troll duelling). Although I understand they may need to come up with smaller gambling tasks that don't take up so much space. How about those card games that we are currently able to steal? I want to know how to play "Snip and Tail" or whatever it was called:P
Underground Fight clubs!! This could be a great way to implement duelling. Remember the rooftop fight clubs in Shivering Isles? Thizzrini Arena was great but it needed more crowds.
A few "entertainers" like the ones in the Ebon Flask and that other area where there was a whole village of "entertainers".

Mettaricana · January 2015

the fact guards are not killable kinda ruins it for me

BalerionBlackDread · January 2015

The guards aren't kill-able, but I just found this gem in the PTS Event post

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Crime Wave – Justice System Test
Channel your inner outlaw and help us test the Justice System. This test is not for the faint of heart—stealing, breaking and entering, and murder is needed. If you’re inclined to thwart the efforts of evil-doers, using any means possible to hinder those who are breaking the law is also encouraged.

When: Friday, January 30th (all day)
Where: Windhelm (in Eastmarch), on the ESO Playtest Server (please use a template if you don’t have an Ebonheart Pact character to participate.)
Event Goals: A large-scale playtest in a major city, with a focus on performing Justice System activities. We’re looking for people to play as they normally would in Windhelm, for solo players and groups to do Justice System activities and work together to simulate a guild sweeping into a city and coordinating a raid on the town. We also encourage trying to hinder others who are attempting to pursue Justice System activities.

The bolded would seem to indicate that they intend to have town raids(I assume that would include killing guards). And maybe some pvp justice lol

fougerec99b16_ESO · January 2015

Outlaw Refuge’s should be cross faction, allowing players from different alliances to grab a drink together or share war stories with each other. Perhaps even the ability to trade items. after all there is no honor among thieves and no greater alliance then coin. Players have been begging for cross faction interaction outside of PVP, this would be the perfect opportunity to deliver that.

Maybe something for them to consider for the Dark Brotherhood or Thieves Guild. It is an excellent idea.

Dominoid · January 2015

I'm a programmer by trade, so I'll give my input and how I see "easily" fixing the issues.

First, it seems like you can trespass forever without penalty. The NPCs keep telling you that you should leave but nothing ever happens. There really needs to be a counter of some kind. After X number of trespass warnings you incur a bounty. The bounty continues to increase with each additional infraction - calling for a guard would be better, but that's the hard way. You could assign a global variable of trespass infractions, set it to 0 every time your port through a door and increase the counter with each NPC warning. When it gets above X add a bounty!

Secondly, as pointed out by several others, you can simply murder inhabitants and wait out your heat inside their house. This makes no sense what so ever. You should not be able to decrease heat within a radius of X of committing a murder. From a programming perspective, set a new murderXY global, upon committing a murder assign the XY to it. Now add a check on the bounty/heat decrease that if you are within a certain radius of murderXY the bounty and heat do not decrease. Make us at least get away from the crime scene first!

Thanks for your time.

Nietzsche95 · January 2015

For the sake of realism, they should make players have separate bounties in each faction. Why would a Windhelm guard try to arrest you for murdering 37 people in Vulkhel Guard? They are at war after all, so they shouldn't arrest you for creating chaos in enemy lands?

BalerionBlackDread · January 2015

Nietzsche95 wrote: »

For the sake of realism, they should make players have separate bounties in each faction. Why would a Windhelm guard try to arrest you for murdering 37 people in Vulkhel Guard? They are at war after all, so they shouldn't arrest you for creating chaos in enemy lands?

This would make it too easy to get away from the bounty, just go to another faction and wait it out, imo.

starkerealm · January 2015

Nietzsche95 wrote: »

For the sake of realism, they should make players have separate bounties in each faction. Why would a Windhelm guard try to arrest you for murdering 37 people in Vulkhel Guard? They are at war after all, so they shouldn't arrest you for creating chaos in enemy lands?

Because you're not really in Vulkhel Guard, you're just having a Python inflict a really elaborate drug induced hallucination on you via a welken stone? So, while you think you're running around Auridon, you've really been making a mess on Vvardenfell, and you don't even remember?

Rhycroft · January 2015

Overall I'll say that the justice system in its current form is a decent foundation, however I don't believe its met its potential just yet.

I'm sure there will be advances and changes to the system down the road, but I just wanted to leave my opinion here. Dominoid you are correct, there should be some sort of system in place that makes breaking and entering feel more real "Risk / Reward".

Also I believe a fair amount of people agree that immortal guards are a little much, There should be some sort of breaking point with guards. if this becomes a real problem guards can always yell for other guards, perhaps this yell could even spawn a larger group of guards out from some nearby alleyway to rush in and save the day. If imminent death is in fact the route in which the developers feel they need to go, at least it can be done in a more immersive way. On another note I believe the current crowd control given to guards is a little to intense. Also Id like to say, "switch it up not every guard should use the same attack and class abilities" throw the player a curve ball.

Another issue I see, is when pick pocketing an npc while another npc is facing directly in front of them. there should be a dual layer of detection and a radius at which it works. For instance, if I'm going to pick pocket a bard playing his little heart out and another npc is standing within radius and within line of sight enjoying the music, that npc should alert the other to the pick pocketing attempt.

Right now the justice system seams to rely heavily on player imagination. While I love the addition of this system I really feel that it lacks depth.

In addition here are a few basic ideas "just because".

Create a handful of Refuge type camps out in the wild away from cities. No reason to be to elaborate. just a few useful npc's looking to lend a helping hand to those on the run from the law.

Speaking about running from the law. this system seams to lose touch as soon as the player leaves the city. How about a few elite bounty npc's that will spawn randomly in the wild and head towards the direction of active outlaws. this would greatly expand the feeling of risk and reward outside of cities. If you die you die but there should be some sort of reward for players who are able to overcome these elite npc's. perhaps a slightly improved drop table? after all bounty hunters sure do carry their fair share of coin.

Delivery contract? this by far would be one of the simplest this to do. Daily contracts for the delivery of stolen / hot items. Again more risk and reward to the justice system. Place a simple note inside refuge's with open contracts to deliver to random npc's This way you would even save time and money since there would be no need to record voice overs. a completely random and anonymous system. example "Contact reads: take package to /drop off location/ the guards will be looking for you, don't get caught. Once delivered return to /npc/ to collect payment." obviously if the player is caught the contract is failed and the item is destroyed.

I could sit here and toss around idea all day but honestly that's not really productive. after all lets be honest the development team has its fair share of irons in the fire. so in its most simple nature I'll simply say that the justice system needs some sever nurturing.

Nietzsche95 · January 2015

Maybe they can just have guards set up blockades at wayshrines for people with higher bounties to make it harder to escape. And for people with really high bounties that flee to another faction's zone, the faction they committed the crime in could send bounty hunters after them. And maybe bounties can only decay when you're in the zone of the faction you committed crimes in. Lore is one of Elder Scrolls' greatest strengths so I really wish they'd try these ideas instead of making bounties cross-faction, since that would decrease immersion as well as alliance pride.