Soooo...no opt out for the Justice System?

Roechacca · January 2015

Spit out my drink reading the House Maid story .... lol

RedTalon · January 2015

Nothing in game is on the cheap anymore

DeLindsay · January 2015

Just wanted to put my 2 Gold in. Head out to Shornhelm (Rivenspire) and go up to the upper part of the Town where you had to quest to free it from the Baron. You will find just about everything is still lootable and is not flagged. The Barracks however had every single container set to "opened" already and there was a ton of Guards in there so that Motif farming spot is out. But the rest of the upper Town is loaded with chests, barrels, desks, etc free for looting without a single NPC is sight. There is literally NO REASON for ZoS to give Players a get-out-of-jail-free card in regards to theft in ESO once 1.6 is Live. Looting a container that doesn't belong to you to acquire Provisioning ingredients is theft, no matter how you try and justify it.

EDIT: The Dune corridor (between the 2 halves of the City) in Reaper's March also has tons of freely lootable containers for Provisioning ingredients just like Live.

AssaultLemming · January 2015

fougerec99b16_ESO wrote: »

AssaultLemming wrote: »

I knew that they would fail to think about heals in a smart way.

When in town you're not healing, you're spamming and if it cuts down on that I'll do a happy dance.

It's been a while since I did the solo quests, but aren't there quests that happen in the cities that require you to fight mobs? If so, does this not make the chance of healing someone accidentally quite high?

starkerealm · January 2015

fougerec99b16_ESO wrote: »

I don't steal anything but I did accidentally kill someone's livestock and it was awesome. Bad guy moved, arrow went wide, killed a cow and ended up a fugitive from justice living in the woods until the heat died down.

That is exactly what I want in an Elder Scrolls game and what I hoped the Justice System would allow for.

Saddly, there's no option yet to suffer a psychotic break, turn cannibalistic, and start feasting on the passing merchants.

In all honesty, it would be nice to have a setting that functions as a safety against stealing owned items. I'm thinking of a cooking fire in Sentinel where there are a couple pheasants hanging next to it and accessing the fire without accidentally swiping the birds is kind of tricky.

starkerealm · January 2015

nimander99 wrote: »

So what its sounding like to me is if the container is 'owned' then you have to steal it. If its in the open world then its lootable? ummmm that sound like an Elder Scrolls game to me, so... what are we talking about?

Lizards and murderfish. You know, Elder Scrolls.

We all got lazy with everything being free for the taking. I guess now we have to actually fess up to our kleptomaniac impulses... you know, like an Elder Scrolls game.

Darlantan · January 2015

AssaultLemming wrote: »

fougerec99b16_ESO wrote: »

AssaultLemming wrote: »

I knew that they would fail to think about heals in a smart way.

When in town you're not healing, you're spamming and if it cuts down on that I'll do a happy dance.

It's been a while since I did the solo quests, but aren't there quests that happen in the cities that require you to fight mobs? If so, does this not make the chance of healing someone accidentally quite high?

Possible, but he is not talking about that. He is talking about people who love nothing more than spamming spell in the bank. I know someone say they are building up ultimate, but why chose the bank. Why not another empty house...

nerevarine1138 · January 2015

AssaultLemming wrote: »

fougerec99b16_ESO wrote: »

AssaultLemming wrote: »

I knew that they would fail to think about heals in a smart way.

When in town you're not healing, you're spamming and if it cuts down on that I'll do a happy dance.

It's been a while since I did the solo quests, but aren't there quests that happen in the cities that require you to fight mobs? If so, does this not make the chance of healing someone accidentally quite high?

Those usually take place in instances of the city that specifically have enemies. I doubt it will cause a problem.

OP, et al.: you already have the ability to opt out. Don't steal stuff or kill civilians. Congratulations, you've opted out of the justice system.

starkerealm · January 2015

Esha76 wrote: »

I don't understand why many containers in dungeons count as stealing... Is some gobbo really going to run up to a local town guard complaining I stole his carrot?

Other than that I find the system to be quite entertaining. Wonderful time killer at the absolute very least.

If you're finding owned items in dungeons or delves, that's probably a bug, report those. I can think of a few that might rate owned items, but not many.

starkerealm · January 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

If I kill a town guard can I loot their armor and weapons?

If you manage to kill one? Feel free.

lordrichter wrote: »

Rebeccas04nub18_ESO wrote: »

The problem is, about 95% of the containers in a city, town, business or abode are steal-only containers. I'm REALLY hoping ZOS cuts this back to no more than 1/2 before it goes live.

I am hoping that they do not do this, actually.

I can see them making a few more open world containers so they they are free, but anything that should reasonably be owned, and not abandoned, should have a theft associated with it.

My only real concern about theft is any place where an NPC quest giver or shopkeeper is hiding behind stuff that can be stolen. If it is possible to accidentally steal it while trying to interact with the NPC, that would not be good.

There was one shopkeeper in Oblivion, Bravil as I recall, that was hiding behind stacks of bottles and it was too easy to take the bottles.

Yeah, this also happens in a couple of shops in Skyrim (the game, not the province in ESO).

I really hope we can get a "safety" like the not harming innocents switch, to protect us against accidentally looting stolen goods.

Garwulf · January 2015

Not really much of justice system. Do what you like, get killed by the guards and you are a 'perfect' citizen again. Do your crime whilst 'starkers' and all is well and good.

starkerealm · January 2015

Garwulf wrote: »

Not really much of justice system. Do what you like, get killed by the guards and you are a 'perfect' citizen again. Do your crime whilst 'starkers' and all is well and good.

Nope. Doesn't work that way. Also... HEY! I wear clothes!

But, yeah, they'll take the bounty out of your pockets after you're dead, along with anything you swiped along the way.

If they clean out your pockets, anything you couldn't pay off posthumously stays on your account, and they play hockey with your skull until you log.

Soulshine · January 2015

For those talking about provisioning items being everywhere - yes they are at this time on live. The ratio on PTS atm is not the same however. Spent last two days in towns and elsewhere looking for loots to compare and the difference is quite noticable. Noticing this and reporting it is out of whack has nothing to do with not wanting to participate in justice system like the OP.

UrQuan · January 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

For those talking about provisioning items being everywhere - yes they are at this time on live. The ratio on PTS atm is not the same however. Spent last two days in towns and elsewhere looking for loots to compare and the difference is quite noticable. Noticing this and reporting it is out of whack has nothing to do with not wanting to participate in justice system like the OP.

Are you finding they're less common in delves?

Dreamo84 · January 2015

Garwulf wrote: »

Not really much of justice system. Do what you like, get killed by the guards and you are a 'perfect' citizen again. Do your crime whilst 'starkers' and all is well and good.

Killing someone isn't justice? I think you just have to suspend your disbelief for a moment and remember death is only not a big deal because it's a game.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Content and Language]

RazielSR · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

It comes down to the fact that the game has changed significantly from what you are used to.

There is no 'normal' pre 1.6 game life, it doesn't exist. The game is now (well soon to be) this, not that.

What you are 'used' to doing pre 1.6 is considered stealing in 1.6 there is no way around that.

In every other ES game it was this way as well, it honestly should have been this way the entire game, but it wasn't. Now it is.

Sounds harsh, but its a reality. There is nothing we can do to change it and they sure aren't going back to the way it was, so adapt and survive.

I COMPLETELY agree. This should have existed since the beginning of ESO. This is TES universe.

starkerealm · January 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

For those talking about provisioning items being everywhere - yes they are at this time on live. The ratio on PTS atm is not the same however. Spent last two days in towns and elsewhere looking for loots to compare and the difference is quite noticable. Noticing this and reporting it is out of whack has nothing to do with not wanting to participate in justice system like the OP.

Are you finding they're less common in delves?

Delve drops seem to be roughly the same. I was hitting stuff out in Malabar Tor, so, ones with really dense supplies of goodies like the tower right outside Daggerfall are probably more reliable spots to hit. But, yeah, looks like delves are a legitimate source now. Also abandoned camps and buildings in the wilderness also look like good options. Bandit/cultist towns don't seem to be owned, though I'd have to do more research to be sure that's universal.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · January 2015

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

Hey, all. We've removed an off-topic conversation from this thread. We want to give everyone a gentle reminder to report posts that you feel violate the code of conduct rather than replying. Engaging the comment usually side tracks the thread. Thanks for your understanding.

So I see a 'green' icon on the thread subject and come looking for some real ZOS discussion only to find it's just another moderation comment.

Can you PLEASE not have such posts flagged in the forum index, it simply devalues the usefulness of those markers as a means for players to find useful 'green' posts discussing our concerns, which ones like yours here clearly aren't.

Garwulf · January 2015

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Garwulf wrote: »

Not really much of justice system. Do what you like, get killed by the guards and you are a 'perfect' citizen again. Do your crime whilst 'starkers' and all is well and good.

Killing someone isn't justice? I think you just have to suspend your disbelief for a moment and remember death is only not a big deal because it's a game.

you must be from Texas if you don't think even the death penalty is harsh enough!

This game is encouraging crime. Yet the punishment for being a really bad criminal is 'death',followed by immediate resurrection at a shrine. All forgiven . Appropriate? Maybe, but only if you think the common PVP Emperor farming is in the spirit of the game.
NB I decided to feed on a guard to see what the punishment was going to be . He was yummy.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Content and Language]

Flynch · January 2015

All of this sounds awesome.

DanielMaxwell · January 2015

A true opt-out from the justice system would mean not being able to interact with items flagged as "owned" , attack friendly NPC's (including livestock owned by said friendly NPC's) , and unable to heal players with active bounties or heat . ZOS would also have flag everything that that is intended to be part of the justice system so that those who opt-out would not be able to interact with those objects.

some how I do not think ZOS is going to make that effort at coding a true opt-out for the justice system.

AlnilamE · January 2015

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

I remember saying many times I didn't want to participate in the justice system and every time someone would say, "If you don't want to participate you can just opt out." I tried the public test server today and I have the option in gameplay settings to "Prevent Attacking Innocents" yet no option to "Turn Justice System off". So I guess the "opt out" people kept talking about was basically "Don't loot anything ever again outside mobs and dungeons." I have a provisioning character who's materials will all go bad once the new patch goes live so I guess I have no choice but to run dungeons for provisioning materials since I can no longer get them in towns in the hundreds of containers there.

I did try the theft thing and had accumulated 15 lockpicks, was spotted by one random maid and was confronted by the next guard I came close to, I had to pay a 5 gold fine and lost the lockpicks. All lockpicks, provisioning/crafting materials I saw were steal only, as were recipes and racial style motifs. So I'm guessing those will now be in the cash shop as "convience items" for people like me who don't want to spend half the day trying to steal provisioning/crafting materials just to lose them because one person spots you.

The way I understood it when they were talking about an "opt-out" option was that any owned containers would NOT be lootable by those opting out. So the mechanic might be different (owned containers are clearly flagged) but the end result is the same (you don't get those mats).

You really underestimate the usefulness of the crafting writs for the maxed out provisioner. My provisioner does them everyday and I am sitting on at least half a stack of pinguis that I have paid 0 gold for.

If you look for a few dungeons that are populated by human mobs, those usually have plenty of containers and they will all be "not-owned".

They also mentioned that we could pick ungredients from orchards, but I have not had a chance to test that yet.

And the grocer sells everything except the equivalent to tomatoes and oats for 10g a piece, so provisioning should be fairly easy. You certainly have multiple options for obtaining the mats you want outside of stealing.

Epona222 · January 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

Just wanted to put my 2 Gold in. Head out to Shornhelm (Rivenspire) and go up to the upper part of the Town where you had to quest to free it from the Baron. You will find just about everything is still lootable and is not flagged. The Barracks however had every single container set to "opened" already and there was a ton of Guards in there so that Motif farming spot is out. But the rest of the upper Town is loaded with chests, barrels, desks, etc free for looting without a single NPC is sight. There is literally NO REASON for ZoS to give Players a get-out-of-jail-free card in regards to theft in ESO once 1.6 is Live. Looting a container that doesn't belong to you to acquire Provisioning ingredients is theft, no matter how you try and justify it.

EDIT: The Dune corridor (between the 2 halves of the City) in Reaper's March also has tons of freely lootable containers for Provisioning ingredients just like Live.

This, I have been trying out update 6 on the PTS today (it finally having finished downloading LOL) and found loads of places where I could still pick up provisioning mats without stealing. That includes a lot of the upper city in Shornhelm, presumably because I went and killed the Montclair-aligned owners of those mansions in earlier quests (and they do not respawn in your instance), so the houses and containers do not have an owner.
There are also a good few normal houses in Shornhelm lower city that are not locked and where containers aren't necessarily owned and marked as stealing when you loot.
Containers out in the wilderness or in dungeons are unowned. And it sounds from the patch notes as though there will be more opportunities to get ingredients from hunting and fishing.

People wailing that they can no longer loot provisioning ingredients is a lot of fuss about nothing IMO.

Stonesthrow · January 2015

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

I remember saying many times I didn't want to participate in the justice system and every time someone would say, "If you don't want to participate you can just opt out." I tried the public test server today and I have the option in gameplay settings to "Prevent Attacking Innocents" yet no option to "Turn Justice System off". So I guess the "opt out" people kept talking about was basically "Don't loot anything ever again outside mobs and dungeons." I have a provisioning character who's materials will all go bad once the new patch goes live so I guess I have no choice but to run dungeons for provisioning materials since I can no longer get them in towns in the hundreds of containers there.

I did try the theft thing and had accumulated 15 lockpicks, was spotted by one random maid and was confronted by the next guard I came close to, I had to pay a 5 gold fine and lost the lockpicks. All lockpicks, provisioning/crafting materials I saw were steal only, as were recipes and racial style motifs. So I'm guessing those will now be in the cash shop as "convience items" for people like me who don't want to spend half the day trying to steal provisioning/crafting materials just to lose them because one person spots you.

Hit up a fence and pay some gold to "launder" the items and then they are no longer stolen… meaning you won't lose if caught by a guard.

Also I believe you can cook with stolen items and the created consumables are not considered stolen. have to confirm that, been busy.

Stonesthrow · January 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

... You go from being able to find hundreds of mats in just a few min. to having to search for hours for the same amount.
...

So now it has gone from hundreds of mats in just a few minutes, to being comparable to the other crafts?

Nice!

And if no one noticed, all crafting matts now stack to 200. Refined smithing materials, herbs, style stones, trait gems, food and drink materials…

That right there is worth the price of admission!

Epona222 · January 2015

Stonesthrow wrote: »

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

I remember saying many times I didn't want to participate in the justice system and every time someone would say, "If you don't want to participate you can just opt out." I tried the public test server today and I have the option in gameplay settings to "Prevent Attacking Innocents" yet no option to "Turn Justice System off". So I guess the "opt out" people kept talking about was basically "Don't loot anything ever again outside mobs and dungeons." I have a provisioning character who's materials will all go bad once the new patch goes live so I guess I have no choice but to run dungeons for provisioning materials since I can no longer get them in towns in the hundreds of containers there.

I did try the theft thing and had accumulated 15 lockpicks, was spotted by one random maid and was confronted by the next guard I came close to, I had to pay a 5 gold fine and lost the lockpicks. All lockpicks, provisioning/crafting materials I saw were steal only, as were recipes and racial style motifs. So I'm guessing those will now be in the cash shop as "convience items" for people like me who don't want to spend half the day trying to steal provisioning/crafting materials just to lose them because one person spots you.

Hit up a fence and pay some gold to "launder" the items and then they are no longer stolen… meaning you won't lose if caught by a guard.

Also I believe you can cook with stolen items and the created consumables are not considered stolen. have to confirm that, been busy.

Or anyone who doesn't want to steal and is too afraid to seek out unowned containers can just buy the goods (from a vendor, or from someone who seeks out ingredients and sells them, or from someone who hunts and fishes), like it is in the real world. I can't walk into my neighbour's house and rummage through their cupboards to find ingredients for my dinner. I am not against a more realistic attitute to breaking and entering, trespass, theft etc.

Dreamo84 · January 2015

This is really pointless to discuss in this fashion any further. The truth is they would have to remove the justice system to let someone play the way it was.

TheShadowScout · January 2015

Dreamo84 wrote: »

This is really pointless to discuss in this fashion any further. The truth is they would have to remove the justice system to let someone play the way it was.

Indeed. And I for one like all I hear about the new justice system, and would not want it to be as it is not instead. Even as provisioner on my main.

It's not that big a deal anyhow. You never could loot half the top grade ingredients like pinguis and such from containers, and had to buy them... before writs, which indeed are great to boost your stores. You still will find more then enough unowned containers in the right dvelves. Or you can get your gold the usual way and buy your ingredients. So it will get a little more difficult... so what? If it was easy, the game would not be worth playing in the first place...

DeLindsay · January 2015

Stonesthrow wrote: »

Hit up a fence and pay some gold to "launder" the items and then they are no longer stolen… meaning you won't lose if caught by a guard.

Also I believe you can cook with stolen items and the created consumables are not considered stolen. have to confirm that, been busy.

And once they are laundered and placed on a Guild Store or sold via Chat NOBODY buying it will have any idea if it was a stolen item or not. That means at some point after 1.6 is Live many of the listings for sale will probably be Laundered items, so you ALL are taking part in a criminal enterprise whether you want to or not

starkerealm · January 2015

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

A true opt-out from the justice system would mean not being able to interact with items flagged as "owned" , attack friendly NPC's (including livestock owned by said friendly NPC's) , and unable to heal players with active bounties or heat . ZOS would also have flag everything that that is intended to be part of the justice system so that those who opt-out would not be able to interact with those objects.

some how I do not think ZOS is going to make that effort at coding a true opt-out for the justice system.

I think healing triggering guards to go homicidal is probably a bug.

But, that said, A safety against accidental kleptomania, the way there's already one against accidental homicidal rampages, would probably be doable. And, honestly something the justice system sorely needs.

There are a lot of places in the game, right now, with random items scattered around for verisimilitude, that make interacting with merchants unnecessarily tedious. (I'm thinking specifically of some guild vendor stalls in Windhelm.)