The Justice System seems pretty sound. I can't see what the hold up would be for the PvP portion.

kieso · January 2015

Belkarth guard hits you for 13K.

Alphashado · January 2015

Kallipsoe wrote: »

Celless wrote: »

I like it.

If an enforcer misjudges a peasant for a disguise and attacks xyr, they may become the criminal they chose to hunt.

Perhaps other criminals will not be able to target that player in disguise and/or see through the disguise - which could pose the "opposing alliance stealth detection" type of issues.

I simply envision a red pulsating bounty emblem over players heads that are market "kill on sight" and they will have that red glow around their body just like an attack-able enemy NPC in the world. Putting on their disguise would simply make this go away unless they are discovered by a NPC guard. Player enforcers would not be able to see through a player disguise.

This. There is no need to over complicate it. But the disguise should only be usable within a certain proximity of the fences, otherwise people would just use them all the time in order to avoid other players.

Another simple option would be to make the Fencing areas non-PvP, and put a wayshrine inside each one of them. Or some kind of teleportation device that you can only use if you have a certain amount of points in the rogue skill line. (Forget what it's called). You could even limit the number of times per day that the teleport could be used in order to keep a certain element of risk involved. In other words, you get one or two Fence ports per day and if you use them up and still want to visit the fence, you will just have to sneak up to the door or use your wits to outsmart any would-be heroes camping outside.

Or you could simply create invisible lines surrounding the Fence doors. Like a perimeter where your PvP flag gets turned off and you get a notification saying something like "You are now under the protection of the underworld" and "You are now leaving the protection of the underworld" when you enter/exit the perimeter.

SanderBuraas · January 2015

Xabien wrote: »

The guards are meant to be unkillable. As for the PVP element, I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you steal or murder, you deserve to have justice exacted upon you. It's a fun, lore appropriate way to introduce a PVP element to the game for those who choose to opt in to being a criminal or guard.

Agree with this. There has to be a pvp element to the Justice system, that would really be a blast.

Tandor · January 2015

Xabien wrote: »

The guards are meant to be unkillable. As for the PVP element, I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you steal or murder, you deserve to have justice exacted upon you. It's a fun, lore appropriate way to introduce a PVP element to the game for those who choose to opt in to being a criminal or guard.

But what of those who do not want PvP, and don't consider any form of it to be "a fun, lore appropriate way" to introduce it? Are they to be excluded from participating in the Justice System?

As a PvE player with zero interest in PvP I do not want to be kept out of a significant part of the game (with a particular tie-in to the Thieves Guild in due course), and of course I fully expect to have justice exacted upon me, but not by other players. If I wanted that I'd go to Cyrodil.

Sallington · January 2015

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Carebears.

LOLworldPVPers

See, I too can post a fatuous reply that doesn't help progress the discussion.

I just meant people would complain if their actions resulted in getting their butts handed to them by people who mostly PvP. Which is really annoying since there hasn't been ANY PvP content added since launch.

BBSooner · January 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

The guards are meant to be unkillable. As for the PVP element, I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you steal or murder, you deserve to have justice exacted upon you. It's a fun, lore appropriate way to introduce a PVP element to the game for those who choose to opt in to being a criminal or guard.

But what of those who do not want PvP, and don't consider any form of it to be "a fun, lore appropriate way" to introduce it? Are they to be excluded from participating in the Justice System?

As a PvE player with zero interest in PvP I do not want to be kept out of a significant part of the game (with a particular tie-in to the Thieves Guild in due course), and of course I fully expect to have justice exacted upon me, but not by other players. If I wanted that I'd go to Cyrodil.

Think of the justice system as tacit approval of encountering world PvP. That is what it has been described as since our first look, that has been their answer to "what constitutes a PvP update", and that is their answer to the dilemma of "my character isn't a thief".

Luckily there is a toggle feature, You absolutely do not have to participate if you don't want to.

firstdecan · January 2015

I played around with this a little bit last night. I have an EP toon, and played around with it in Devon's Watch (level 4 NPCs) and Rawl Kha (VR10 NPCs).

Things I noticed.

- If you one shot an NPC while no one else is around, there are no consequences. This makes sense as there is no one to report the crime.

- If you one shot an NPC while it's next to someone, you immediately have a bounty. This does not necessarily make sense. I used snipe at long range to one shot a low level NPC from stealth and made sure only the NPC I was shooting had LoS. If no one saw it, I shouldn't have a bounty.

- Even if you one shot the NPC you're assassinating, if any other NPCs are around stealth is immediately broken and you have a bounty. This is probably a corollary to the point above.

- If you don't one shot the NPC, you will have a bounty no matter what, even if you lure the NPC into a secluded area and kill them without anyone else noticing. I would think if you kill the only person who witnessed the crime, the bounty would disappear (no one to report it).

- NPCs just stand around like knobs when you're committing a crime. I picked a lock for a trunk in the Rawl Kha bank in full view of the NPCs there, and I think all I got was some nasty NPC chatter (my bounty did go up slightly). No one summoned a guard. Similarly, when I killed an NPC near another NPC, the surviving NPC just stood there. (OMG, my best friend just died, but I'll stand here just the same and keep maintaining my idle routine).

- There are no real consequences for stealing. Just take all you want, sell it to the fence, then strip off your armor and suicide at a guard. You'll res with no bounty and no other penalty.

- items you steal can't be used until you 'launder' them (I forgot the exact in game word they used). I would think consumables and mats would be usable but not saleable / tradeable, since you can do that in private. If you stole a weapon or armor, I would not expect to be able to use that until laundered.

cozmon3c_ESO · January 2015

i was at the guild summit when they explained this, basically for the pvp portion.

Enforcers, flagged as enforcer with enforcer tabard equiped. are always attackable by criminal players, so basically nuetral like npc's until attacked. They can witness crimes and kill the criminals, get there loot and turn it into the Enforcer tower for money. they need to be careful not to commit crimes or they will be attacked by guards as well and have to go to the guard tower to get a pardon for a price and then can get there Tabard back for some more enforcing.

Criminals, not sure if you have to opt in for this or just go stealing and killing, but its probably just go and steal or kill with no opt in option. you cannot be attacked by other players or guards unless caught doing a crime. if you die, enforcers loot your items. if you are sneaky enough you can fence it for money. fences are located in the sewers of towns, and only criminals have access to it. so no pvp area.

its pretty simple, just imagine enforcers as player played npc guards that you can attack whenever. so being an enforcer will be tough, because im going to keep killing you as long as you wear that tabard, lol lol lol.

for those who dont want to pvp there will be criminal dens for the enforcers to delve into, there is chests and bosses and theives all for your killing uninterrupted by criminal players that would want to kill you, just make sure you dont forget to take your tabard off because i may just be waiting for you to come out of the delve to take all that loot you got in there to turn into the fence.

Azarul · January 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

The guards are meant to be unkillable. As for the PVP element, I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you steal or murder, you deserve to have justice exacted upon you. It's a fun, lore appropriate way to introduce a PVP element to the game for those who choose to opt in to being a criminal or guard.

I fully expect to have justice exacted upon me, but not by other players. If I wanted that I'd go to Cyrodil.

I do not see the difference of running from guards and players.

Roechacca · January 2015

I want to see the PVP side of this update released for testing .

AlnilamE · January 2015

I'm happy with them doing this in stages.

UrQuan · January 2015

roechacca wrote: »

I want to see the PVP side of this update released for testing .

Agreed. Let people play around on the PTS with the justice system without PVP for a while, and then release the PVP side of it on the PTS for people to play around with. Then we'll get a good idea of how well it works both with and without the PVP element.

Personally, even though I really don't care at all about PVP, I'd like to eventually see it included in the justice system. It gives something fun and new for PVPers (and I'm all about giving people with different preferred play styles fun things to do in the game, even if it's something I don't care about myself - give grinders places to grind, give RPers places to RP, etc), while allowing PVEers like me to stay out of it if desired. Heck, it might even get PVEers like me interested in PVP.

Arki · January 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

The guards are meant to be unkillable. As for the PVP element, I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you steal or murder, you deserve to have justice exacted upon you. It's a fun, lore appropriate way to introduce a PVP element to the game for those who choose to opt in to being a criminal or guard.

But what of those who do not want PvP, and don't consider any form of it to be "a fun, lore appropriate way" to introduce it? Are they to be excluded from participating in the Justice System?

As a PvE player with zero interest in PvP I do not want to be kept out of a significant part of the game (with a particular tie-in to the Thieves Guild in due course), and of course I fully expect to have justice exacted upon me, but not by other players. If I wanted that I'd go to Cyrodil.

One way to do it would be to only flag those with a fairly high bounty (second level, dont remember the name) for pvp. Then make the quests from e.g. thiefs guild etc in a way that don't force you to get a very high bounty.

In essence, if you start killing random npcs expect to be flagged and hit hard by enforcers. If you just steal some stuff here and there you are perfectly safe from other players. Just watch out for that guard

UrQuan · January 2015

myrbostadb16_ESO3 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

The guards are meant to be unkillable. As for the PVP element, I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you steal or murder, you deserve to have justice exacted upon you. It's a fun, lore appropriate way to introduce a PVP element to the game for those who choose to opt in to being a criminal or guard.

But what of those who do not want PvP, and don't consider any form of it to be "a fun, lore appropriate way" to introduce it? Are they to be excluded from participating in the Justice System?

As a PvE player with zero interest in PvP I do not want to be kept out of a significant part of the game (with a particular tie-in to the Thieves Guild in due course), and of course I fully expect to have justice exacted upon me, but not by other players. If I wanted that I'd go to Cyrodil.

One way to do it would be to only flag those with a fairly high bounty (second level, dont remember the name) for pvp. Then make the quests from e.g. thiefs guild etc in a way that don't force you to get a very high bounty.

In essence, if you start killing random npcs expect to be flagged and hit hard by enforcers. If you just steal some stuff here and there you are perfectly safe from other players. Just watch out for that guard

I think this is really the best way to make a PVP justice system that will make everyone happy. People who want to opt in to PVP as criminals will have no problem doing so, while people who don't want to do so will be able to participate in the PVE-only justice system, albeit with a little bit of effort to make sure you don't slip too far down the dark path.

Tandor · January 2015

myrbostadb16_ESO3 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

The guards are meant to be unkillable. As for the PVP element, I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you steal or murder, you deserve to have justice exacted upon you. It's a fun, lore appropriate way to introduce a PVP element to the game for those who choose to opt in to being a criminal or guard.

But what of those who do not want PvP, and don't consider any form of it to be "a fun, lore appropriate way" to introduce it? Are they to be excluded from participating in the Justice System?

As a PvE player with zero interest in PvP I do not want to be kept out of a significant part of the game (with a particular tie-in to the Thieves Guild in due course), and of course I fully expect to have justice exacted upon me, but not by other players. If I wanted that I'd go to Cyrodil.

One way to do it would be to only flag those with a fairly high bounty (second level, dont remember the name) for pvp. Then make the quests from e.g. thiefs guild etc in a way that don't force you to get a very high bounty.

In essence, if you start killing random npcs expect to be flagged and hit hard by enforcers. If you just steal some stuff here and there you are perfectly safe from other players. Just watch out for that guard

I'd be perfectly happy with that. I don't wish to exclude PvPers from the Justice System any more than I want PvEers excluded from it.

ZOS_MandiParker · January 2015

PvE Justice was such a massive and fundamental alteration to the current game that we wanted to give players a chance to adjust to it first. We wanted to see what everybody enjoys or avoids before adding in any new toys.

Lied · January 2015

Azarul wrote: »

I was so looking to re-subbing till I saw the PvP portion was not going to be added in the beginning. I don't see the problem for PvEer's. Its basically a setup like WoW, dont want to PvP, dont flag yourself (ie: steal, murder, etc).

you would think.. they're probably pondering some sort of scaling/bolstering system to avoid a situation where only veteran players can play around with the justice system without getting blown up.

That's just a guess, but even if they left it exactly as it is and then made only 50+ players flag for PvP it'd be better than nothing.

TheBull · January 2015

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

PvE Justice was such a massive and fundamental alteration to the current game that we wanted to give players a chance to adjust to it first. We wanted to see what everybody enjoys or avoids before adding in any new toys.

Awesome, I was hoping this thread would be helpful in finding loopholes and exploits. We want a sound system too.

Sallington · January 2015

Quick question: Does getting killed by a guard result in armor durability loss? Do I need to commit naked crimes?

ItsGlaive · January 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

The guards are meant to be unkillable. As for the PVP element, I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you steal or murder, you deserve to have justice exacted upon you. It's a fun, lore appropriate way to introduce a PVP element to the game for those who choose to opt in to being a criminal or guard.

But what of those who do not want PvP, and don't consider any form of it to be "a fun, lore appropriate way" to introduce it? Are they to be excluded from participating in the Justice System?

As a PvE player with zero interest in PvP I do not want to be kept out of a significant part of the game (with a particular tie-in to the Thieves Guild in due course), and of course I fully expect to have justice exacted upon me, but not by other players. If I wanted that I'd go to Cyrodil.

I see your point, however PVP was part of the initial announcement, and so is to be expected from anyone engaging in the justice system. Cyrodiil is also a major part of the game, you have the same choice there over whether you choose to engage or not.

TheMachineKiller · January 2015

yeah, I'd like less lag to be in cyro at all times. Bringing more pve content in there will probably lag bomb the servers. Pls stay away.

BBSooner · January 2015

Sallington wrote: »

Quick question: Does getting killed by a guard result in armor durability loss? Do I need to commit naked crimes?

It would be cool if being naked made the NPCs more aware of you. I might not notice the nth armored nord walking through town, but I'd definitely notice the bright yellow altmer Twinkie walking around with no pants or shirt.

UrQuan · January 2015

Sallington wrote: »

Quick question: Does getting killed by a guard result in armor durability loss? Do I need to commit naked crimes?

Good question about durability loss - I would assume it works as normal, but I really don't know.

As to whether you need to commit naked crimes... Well, in 1.6 you can loot regular civilian clothes. So just grab and wear some of those, and go around committing crimes while blending in with the local populace - you won't be naked and you won't have to worry about losing armour durability!

Tandor · January 2015

Xabien wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

The guards are meant to be unkillable. As for the PVP element, I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you steal or murder, you deserve to have justice exacted upon you. It's a fun, lore appropriate way to introduce a PVP element to the game for those who choose to opt in to being a criminal or guard.

But what of those who do not want PvP, and don't consider any form of it to be "a fun, lore appropriate way" to introduce it? Are they to be excluded from participating in the Justice System?

As a PvE player with zero interest in PvP I do not want to be kept out of a significant part of the game (with a particular tie-in to the Thieves Guild in due course), and of course I fully expect to have justice exacted upon me, but not by other players. If I wanted that I'd go to Cyrodil.

I see your point, however PVP was part of the initial announcement, and so is to be expected from anyone engaging in the justice system. Cyrodiil is also a major part of the game, you have the same choice there over whether you choose to engage or not.

Yes, but Cyrodil is an area designed for PvP and a decision can be simply made as to whether to go there for PvP or not. Admittedly there are some PvE quests and skyshards there and as a PvEer you go there for those at a known risk.

However, the Justice System is very different in that it is aimed at the whole of the open world including the cities, and there's nothing optional about visiting those areas, while opting out of the Justice System won't just be a decision about PvP, it will also involve opting out of a major part of the looting system as well as the lore/role-play aspects of the Thieves Guild - depending on how any PvP element is implemented.

That's why I'm happy for there to be a PvP element to the Justice System, but not so major an element that it precludes PvEers from participating in it - and not so structured that the cities become even more full of naked characters casting spells all over the place than they are already

!

Jaxsun · January 2015

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

If they add open world PvP they will lose a ton of people and gain a different group...

We already have open world pvp, Cyrodiil. Adding it to the regular zones on a voluntary basis should make no change to those that don't want to do it. I'm not sure what different people would start playing this game because of pvp being added to the regular leveling zones.

Tandor · January 2015

Jaxsun wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

If they add open world PvP they will lose a ton of people and gain a different group...

We already have open world pvp, Cyrodiil.

No, we have closed zone pvp, Cyrodil.

Iago · January 2015

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

PvE Justice was such a massive and fundamental alteration to the current game that we wanted to give players a chance to adjust to it first. We wanted to see what everybody enjoys or avoids before adding in any new toys.

Will we have someone within he thieves guild who can pay off our bounty for half price as we did in prior Elder Scrolls tittles?

ZOS_GinaBruno · January 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

No exploits/loopholes anyone can think of so far from what they've seen?

Also, rezing players seems to be another thing that triggers guard aggro, and a bounty. Again, no way that could go horribly wrong.

Could you (or anyone else running into this) explain exactly what you're seeing and how you're making it happen? We'd like to dig into this a bit but need some more details. Thanks in advance!

Epona222 · January 2015

I think one of the reasons for possibly not including outlaw/enforcer PvP right away is performance issues, despite suggestion a couple of years before release that all aspects of the game would run on older PCs this is clearly not the case (my more recent gaming home-build struggles in Cyrodil and it doesn't help that my ping rate is way worse than it ought to be) and there is a danger that a mass pvp battle in town or in a questing area could slow everyone down to a slideshow.

glak · January 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

No exploits/loopholes anyone can think of so far from what they've seen?

Hilariously enough. Guards aggro on heals. Coordinated enforcers trying to heal in combat would run a real risk of accidentally becoming criminals themselves.

Also, rezing players seems to be another thing that triggers guard aggro, and a bounty. Again, no way that could go horribly wrong.

There might be other issues, depending on how players are flagged, ganking enforcers might actually be possible.

Heal or rez someone with a bounty or someone who got hurt in the act?