Should ZoS get rid of Veteran Ranks?

goldnugget · January 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

well atleast the champion system is universal on all your characters. your new alts would only need to focus on acquiring new gear at 50 instead of having to lvl up to 50 over 2 more times and ruining all the storylines for new alts. this kind of thing made A LOT of players quit and it will happen again on consoles. of course you could still dabble in other zones optionally for skill points, champion points, achievments, skyshards, lorebooks, ect. but it would atleast not be mandatory. currently you can just grind in craglorn from vr1 and skip this anyways though.

Vizier · January 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

Hmm. The difficulty I'm having with all this isn't that VR ranks are going or staying. Some suggest all zones should be reduced to level 50 as if just because you got to level 50 your should be equipped to handle any and all endgame content. That's just wrong. The zones still need to be tiered so once you get a few Champion Points under your belt all the mobs everywhere don't just melt if you pass gas in their general direction.

I don't see any reason why a level 50 should be viable for all content. There still need to be progression benchmarks and challenging content for all players throughout the champion system. That might mean opening up new territories etc, but then that just levels the playing field now and kicks the level and content can down the road a bit.

I had fun 1-50. I had a great time in PvP V1-V5 learning to compete as an underdog. It was good training. I'm even having fun grinding out the rest of the Vet levels in Craglorn. I still have yet to do much of Cadwell's. I'm just not motivated to do it.

Goresnort · January 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

Alphashado wrote: »

People do not like the grind. 1-50 is great. Good storytelling, nice progression.
You beat the bad guy.... then realize you are literally only 1/3 of the way to level cap. You are only 1/3 of the way towards being competitive in AvA. You are only 1/3 of the way towards being able to participate in Trials or Arena. And why? For what good reason? To experience the content?

Well you can do that with the champion system and w/o Vet Ranks. You can explore the world to your heart's content and get rewarded for doing so by gaining Champion points along the way.

Vet Ranks are no longer needed. Or wanted. They serve no purpose other than a needless, mandatory time sink that makes the journey from 1-50 absolutely trivial.

Let's put it into perspective:

Woot, I just finished DC, Beat Molag Bal, and I am now a fancy pants VR player. I think I will go join my friends in AvA. - You try and get absolutely wrecked by VR 14 players. So you say ahh well, I will try some endgame stuff like Arena or Trials - Oh wait. you can't do this because you would severely gimp your group by trying this under VR12. Sigh, ok guess I will level up some.

Woot, same character just completed the ENTIRE AD storyline and AD zones. Now you are VR5. Wait, still getting Pwned in AvA and still unwelcome in Trials or Arena.
Sigh, guess I will level up some.

Woot, same character just completed the ENTIRE EP storyline and EP zones. You have now played exactly 3x the content, completed every ounce of factional questing, beat all three factional enemies (or wait, weren't they your allies? Now you are confused about this), and you are VR10. Crap, still struggling to find a fair fight in AvA, still unwelcome in Trials, still unwelcome in Arena. Well WTF!
Guess I'll go do Craglorn now. Problem is Craglorn is all group content. Can't be solo'd. Now you are stuck in limbo. So in between finding friends and pugs to group with in Craglorn, you find a few mobs to farm/grind for XP.

Woot, you are now VR14. You can AvA on equal ground, you can do Trials, you can do arena, you are FINALLY competitive at endgame.

Now you think you would like to try a different class at end game.
Oh wait.
Holy crap.
I gotta do ALL THAT again?

Hope that answers your question.

Agree. My sentiments exactly.

For the OP.

I still remember the bitter sting of killing Molag Bal, and then the shocking realization of what I would be doing in game for the next 4 months.

I really enjoyed my first faction campaign. Paying attention to all the quest dialouge, exploring everything, the occasional low level dungeon with friends, and even talking to alot of non-quest npc's just to get the flavour of the zones and hear all the interesting little stories. Ah sweet times. I had tons of fun.
The first faction is by no means small either. The first 1-50 faction story arc including the main quest and fighters + mages guild, is a pretty sizeable chunk of content by mmo standards.

But by the time the first campaign was over, I was however seriously looking forward to playing group/raid/pvp content together with my friends.
You know, all the reasons why I am playing a mmorpg and not a single player rpg.

But no. None of that. Instead it was time to do the same levelling content again. Twice.

What? Seriously? You have to play the levelling content an equivalent to 3xtimes before you can choose what type of endgame activity you prefer? Huh?

Its quite the contrast to what Zenimax originally envisioned and outlined for post level 50 play. Instead of the game opening up to varied play prefrences, players got locked into either grinding xp or playing the other factions.

Check out the statement at approx 6:43 in the video "An introduction to Elder Scrolls Online" at http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/media/videos

Paul Sage: "Once you hit Level 50, thats when the game really opens up. At this point you are going into Cyrodil to pvp, or you are deciding to go on a herioc raid with your guild and your friends, or you are going into an adventure zone".

It is a neat feature, for those of us that want to do so, to be allowed to play the other factions content.

However that should be optional. Players should have a choise in preferred playstyle once the first faction is done.

PVP / Group PVE / Trial PVE / More Solo Content / Combination

The current system for the VR ranks, does not make it optional.

The current system for the VR ranks, removes player choise.

The problem lies in how the VR ranks was implemented.
If we had a choise what main game activites we pursue at VR1, then yes, VR ranks would be fine.

But it does not work that way. Levelling up VR to max, is instead a pre-requirement before you get that choise.

There is nothing veteran about veteran. It just 14 more very long levels in lengthy solo content.

How many players are we loosing along they way?
When should players be practically eligible for different types of content?
When should players be given a realistic choise in what type of content they get to play?

After the first faction?
After the second faction?
After the Third faction?

The entire VR 1-10(14) for practical purposes turned out to be nothing more then a big xp stop-gap, that kept max level players away from the content they prefer (group pve/pvp), and forces them either to play factions they dont want to play, or mindlessly grind xp ad nauseum, before becoming eligible for preferred content.

For players that mainly prefer the solo content, or small group/duo open world content, then yes, I can see why that player segment logically would prefer the VR ranks to stay. VR ranks does not block those players from playing the type of content they prefer, and the rank system infers a form of player growth and progression.

For the other player segments, that prefer group pve/large group pve/pvp, the VR ranks do little else then create a xp gap to be filled.
Why cant these player segments also have fun after Level 50?
Why cant these player segments also get to play their preferred content after Level 50?

Bringing in the champion system, and then removing the VR ranks solves all these issues.

Everyone gets a end game progression system for character growth (champion) after Level 50, regardsless of preferred playstyle.
And everyones gets a choise in preferred content type after Level 50.

And if the other factions zones truly became max level zones, and not just levelling areas to get part of those 14 extra levels, then perhaps Zenimax could also return to some of their original vision for those Zones?
Like an endgame option for players that prefer solo/duo play? Challenging and rewarding for that player segment? How awesome would that be.
Having the optional choise of available end game zones for challenging solo/duo play, that also is re-tuned to be rewarding in the form of resources, items and champion xp?

(For those that joined late after launch, and are unaware of it, the veteran other faction zones were initially much tougher, and were considerably nerfed down in a later patch. http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2014/07/08/the-road-ahead---july-8)

Would love to see that. As a mainly group oriented player, I still dont always prefer to do trails or pvp. Sometimes I would like to choose to go solo/duo. I would love challenging and rewarding solo/duo in addition to group/trial/pvp.
Damn I want that choise!

Thats why the VR ranks needs to get abolished. To take care of all the player segments in the game. Be that either solo players, duo players, group players, raid players, pvp players or players that are combination of several content prefrences.

Anyways, hope that sheds some light on why so many of us for different reasons are strongly against the current implementation of the veteran ranks.

- VR levelling blocks group oriented pve'ers from group content.
- VR levelling blocks pvp'ers from pvp.
- VR levelling caused what was envisioned as challenging endgame zones for solo/duo play, to be nerfed down to normal levelling zones.
- VR levelling removed alternatives for 'fresh' content for players who enjoy alt's.
- VR leveling is not "Play how you want to play".

Zenimax unfortunatly shot themselves in the foot by straying from their original vision.
In a mmo product, when hoping to attract a mmo playerbase and also cater to several types of player prefrences, it is not particularly wise to force max level players, who have already completed a large solo pve levelling campaign, into more lengthy solo/duo pve levelling content, before those players become eligible for group / large group pve and pvp. It is also not good for solo/duo players, that what was envisioned as intial areas for challenging solo/duo play, got nerfed down into regular levelling content.

I just hope we see the VR ranks removed before console launch, and we dont see Zenimax making the same mistake again with their console audience, as they did with their PC audience.

Goresnort · January 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

Vizier wrote: »

Hmm. The difficulty I'm having with all this isn't that VR ranks are going or staying. Some suggest all zones should be reduced to level 50 as if just because you got to level 50 your should be equipped to handle any and all endgame content. That's just wrong. The zones still need to be tiered so once you get a few Champion Points under your belt all the mobs everywhere don't just melt if you pass gas in their general direction.

I don't see any reason why a level 50 should be viable for all content. There still need to be progression benchmarks and challenging content for all players throughout the champion system. That might mean opening up new territories etc, but then that just levels the playing field now and kicks the level and content can down the road a bit.

I had fun 1-50. I had a great time in PvP V1-V5 learning to compete as an underdog. It was good training. I'm even having fun grinding out the rest of the Vet levels in Craglorn. I still have yet to do much of Cadwell's. I'm just not motivated to do it.

Agree with you core statement.

Many MMO's dont use levels at all, and your ability to progress through tougher content solo or group, is tied to the gear and the skills you have earned on your character, and most importantly, the aptitude you as a player have developed for the game.

Some MMO's also use a combination of that and levels.

Some max Level content could just be tougher then other max Level content, and max Level content following that could be even tougher.

Thus requiring you to build up your arsenal, cut your teeth, and wash the green out of your ears, in earlier/initial max level content.

I doubt we need to fear Zeni not putting in more progressivly challenging and rewarding content, after the vet ranks have been removed

We may possibly even see future small increases in level cap now and then. At less regular intervalls then we have seen the VR cap increased.

Akhratos · January 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

Mariiana wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Mariiana wrote: »

I wanted to start this poll just to see what other people besides my guildies thought about the topic, not to try to persuade the devs.

But most of what i seen here simply doesn't make sense. i mean , your'e entitled to your own opinion. but most of what i seen was " yes get rid of vet ranks, the champion system is a much better progression system".....but my point is , why cant the champion system exist without removing vet ranks?

People do not like the grind. 1-50 is great. Good storytelling, nice progression.
You beat the bad guy.... then realize you are literally only 1/3 of the way to level cap. You are only 1/3 of the way towards being competitive in AvA. You are only 1/3 of the way towards being able to participate in Trials or Arena. And why? For what good reason? To experience the content?

Well you can do that with the champion system and w/o Vet Ranks. You can explore the world to your heart's content and get rewarded for doing so by gaining Champion points along the way.

Vet Ranks are no longer needed. Or wanted. They serve no purpose other than a needless, mandatory time sink that makes the journey from 1-50 absolutely trivial.

Let's put it into perspective:

Woot, I just finished DC, Beat Molag Bal, and I am now a fancy pants VR player. I think I will go join my friends in AvA. - You try and get absolutely wrecked by VR 14 players. So you say ahh well, I will try some endgame stuff like Arena or Trials - Oh wait. you can't do this because you would severely gimp your group by trying this under VR12. Sigh, ok guess I will level up some.

Woot, same character just completed the ENTIRE AD storyline and AD zones. Now you are VR5. Wait, still getting Pwned in AvA and still unwelcome in Trials or Arena.
Sigh, guess I will level up some.

Woot, same character just completed the ENTIRE EP storyline and EP zones. You have now played exactly 3x the content, completed every ounce of factional questing, beat all three factional enemies (or wait, weren't they your allies? Now you are confused about this), and you are VR10. Crap, still struggling to find a fair fight in AvA, still unwelcome in Trials, still unwelcome in Arena. Well WTF!
Guess I'll go do Craglorn now. Problem is Craglorn is all group content. Can't be solo'd. Now you are stuck in limbo. So in between finding friends and pugs to group with in Craglorn, you find a few mobs to farm/grind for XP.

Woot, you are now VR14. You can AvA on equal ground, you can do Trials, you can do arena, you are FINALLY competitive at endgame.

Now you think you would like to try a different class at end game.
Oh wait.
Holy crap.
I gotta do ALL THAT again?

Hope that answers your question.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but sit back for a minute and imagine trying to do Sanctum or DSA with someone who just hit ,what would be today's, lvl50/vet1....seems like it would be...interesting...to say the least

I hope the fact that those trials would be level50 is also through your mind.

I mean, it is been the same as your say for most mmorpgs, so I dont think its that hard to imagine. If you just hit level50 and have not crafted a single proper set or lack important skills, then of course you are useless in a Trial.

Right now there are a ton of useless VR14 PVE players in the game as well, so capping it at level50 is not any different.

Why do you think a fresh VR14 after grinding Spellscar for 2 days in a VR14 trial is more useful than a fresh level50 in a level50 trial?

They only lack information about gear/skill. Grinding Spellscar or Caldwells quests wont give them that. It will be other players.

Digiman · January 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

Mariiana wrote: »

Why get rid of Veteran Ranks?
straight to the point, is there any logical reason for ZoS to remove the Vet ranks?
Personally i don't think that any other system could be better than the current system. Not saying that its the best system iv'e seen in an mmo, but it works just fine and there is nothing wrong with it.
I know that, without a doubt, if Vet ranks go away with no new progression system allowing me to "level" up to take its place. ( besides some meager "passives" ) I wont be playing anymore. I think people need to have something more than just little bits of new content here and there.

How is it a progression when all they do is like add maybe 2 new levels with each content patch? The new system seems like a better progression system not only for your character but your realm also.

It wouldn't be long with VR before your bored and have to many skill points to spend. What you want is more content to progress through. VR really mean nothing. They were boring at launch and only meant you could use better gear and the zones you were progressing through to get VR became boring itself.

The only reason I went through all of that was for the skyshards and skill point quests and was begining to skip every minor quest and treasure chest and exploration encounter because it wouldn't boost my rank.

Snowstrider · January 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

Yes get rid of it,It was one of the reasons i left eso months ago (Now i am excited for 1.6 but sadly it wont remove it but will make it better with champion system)

I want to be able to do all end game stuff faster at level 50. So i dont have to grind up to vr10 to experience it,I know many players who either gives up at vr becouse it gets rather dull or they just create new characters to experience 1-50 again.

tunepunk · January 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

I don't see any point of Veteran Ranks except for letting people continue to grind a LOT of Experience, only to award them with a few more skill/attribute points for all their efforts.

Hell I would even vote for removing Experience based Levels altogether, and Award skill/attribute points upon reaching skill levels instead.

Why not take it one step further and remove skill points as well? Certain skills/passive could be unlocked automaticly when you reach a certain skill level. Would make more sense anyway, and maybe a bit more immersive.

Place the attribute points like skyshards in the world as well maybe?

I_killed_Vivec · January 2015

No, Its fine how they are, and i want to see Vet 16 soon.

Snowstrider wrote: »

Yes get rid of it,It was one of the reasons i left eso months ago (Now i am excited for 1.6 but sadly it wont remove it but will make it better with champion system)

I want to be able to do all end game stuff faster at level 50. So i dont have to grind up to vr10 to experience it,I know many players who either gives up at vr becouse it gets rather dull or they just create new characters to experience 1-50 again.

People aren't going to be "competitive" if they walk into Cyrodiil as a brand new lvl50 with no CP compared to someone with hundreds of CP...

If you want to be "competitive" then you need CP.

CP = XP

XP = VR

As you gain CP you are happily levelling up VR at the same time

A brand new lvl50 with no CP will be no more competitive than a lvl49 killing mobs in their final zone. Walking into Craglorn (which is meant to be difficult) will be a big step up - from a single wasp with 300HP to a group of three with 3000HP each...

Or do people expect mobs in Craglorn to be somehow scaled to a player's XP? So a lvl50 with no CP gets baby wasps with only 300HP?

Or will everyone get baby wasps, no matter how many CP they have?

Where is the progression in that?

darthbelanb14_ESO · January 2015

Are you new around here OP? Because Vet Ranks are you on the chief complaints about end game. There's 1000 threads that explain why.

technohic · January 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

I find it interesting that while the number of people participating in the poll has changed over time; the percentage has stayed pretty tight to the same for and against.

It's very heavily favored for being rid of VR levels and I think it would be a lot more skewed if you could take into account the people who quit because they do not like that system.

Minack · January 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

ZOS has a credibility problem at the moment and if they go back on their word to remove VR when the Champion system is fully implemented, they may as well just put a bullet in the idea of this game ever being profitable long term. There aren't enough B2P whales to keep this ship afloat for an extended time.

Mariiana · January 2015

Akhratos wrote: »

Mariiana wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Mariiana wrote: »

I wanted to start this poll just to see what other people besides my guildies thought about the topic, not to try to persuade the devs.

But most of what i seen here simply doesn't make sense. i mean , your'e entitled to your own opinion. but most of what i seen was " yes get rid of vet ranks, the champion system is a much better progression system".....but my point is , why cant the champion system exist without removing vet ranks?

People do not like the grind. 1-50 is great. Good storytelling, nice progression.
You beat the bad guy.... then realize you are literally only 1/3 of the way to level cap. You are only 1/3 of the way towards being competitive in AvA. You are only 1/3 of the way towards being able to participate in Trials or Arena. And why? For what good reason? To experience the content?

Well you can do that with the champion system and w/o Vet Ranks. You can explore the world to your heart's content and get rewarded for doing so by gaining Champion points along the way.

Vet Ranks are no longer needed. Or wanted. They serve no purpose other than a needless, mandatory time sink that makes the journey from 1-50 absolutely trivial.

Let's put it into perspective:

Woot, I just finished DC, Beat Molag Bal, and I am now a fancy pants VR player. I think I will go join my friends in AvA. - You try and get absolutely wrecked by VR 14 players. So you say ahh well, I will try some endgame stuff like Arena or Trials - Oh wait. you can't do this because you would severely gimp your group by trying this under VR12. Sigh, ok guess I will level up some.

Woot, same character just completed the ENTIRE AD storyline and AD zones. Now you are VR5. Wait, still getting Pwned in AvA and still unwelcome in Trials or Arena.
Sigh, guess I will level up some.

Woot, same character just completed the ENTIRE EP storyline and EP zones. You have now played exactly 3x the content, completed every ounce of factional questing, beat all three factional enemies (or wait, weren't they your allies? Now you are confused about this), and you are VR10. Crap, still struggling to find a fair fight in AvA, still unwelcome in Trials, still unwelcome in Arena. Well WTF!
Guess I'll go do Craglorn now. Problem is Craglorn is all group content. Can't be solo'd. Now you are stuck in limbo. So in between finding friends and pugs to group with in Craglorn, you find a few mobs to farm/grind for XP.

Woot, you are now VR14. You can AvA on equal ground, you can do Trials, you can do arena, you are FINALLY competitive at endgame.

Now you think you would like to try a different class at end game.
Oh wait.
Holy crap.
I gotta do ALL THAT again?

Hope that answers your question.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but sit back for a minute and imagine trying to do Sanctum or DSA with someone who just hit ,what would be today's, lvl50/vet1....seems like it would be...interesting...to say the least

I hope the fact that those trials would be level50 is also through your mind.

I mean, it is been the same as your say for most mmorpgs, so I dont think its that hard to imagine. If you just hit level50 and have not crafted a single proper set or lack important skills, then of course you are useless in a Trial.

Right now there are a ton of useless VR14 PVE players in the game as well, so capping it at level50 is not any different.

Why do you think a fresh VR14 after grinding Spellscar for 2 days in a VR14 trial is more useful than a fresh level50 in a level50 trial?

They only lack information about gear/skill. Grinding Spellscar or Caldwells quests wont give them that. It will be other players.

Well the idea behind my last statement was that i should be more powerful than a fresh 50 (w/o any other alts to supplement CP), given the amount of CP i should have due to having 50+ DAYS played on my main character. and dont get me wrong, i know there can be useless vr14's right now, lol. so if the champion system is the new way to progress, to make up for the power difference when they remove vet ranks, are they gonna make my v14 less powerful or lvl 50's more powerful??

Darkintellect · February 2015

Yes, get rid of veteran ranks

Mariiana wrote: »

...so if the champion system is the new way to progress, to make up for the power difference when they remove vet ranks, are they gonna make my v14 less powerful or lvl 50's more powerful??

The game in its entirety will be scaled to a multiplicative 0.80 ratio (with tuning for tertiary variables), this includes monsters, events, gear, etc.

It's honestly easier than most people think and I can write a book on the variations and pin point areas where segmented restructuring is required outside of the blanket scaling.

However, ZOS has been working on this for 3 months now and the phase system is almost complete. We're in phase 2 of the 3 phase system once 1.6 hits on March 3rd.