Dear Zenimax, You promised us Spell Crafting to open the Class Systems up.....

Ommamar · January 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

Ommamar wrote: »

Hmm so after Arena Bethesda released Daggerfall that while an awesome experience when functioning correctly only did that perhaps 10% of the time yet the TES universe thrived. I can guarantee that I will by the next single player iteration regardless of this games success or failure.
Here is the thing you have it in your head they promised you this feature or that feature when all they stated was this is what we are developing and the direction we are trying to move in. Things changes quickly so ZoS have to adjust for what they see as good for the game and their company. Because you don't agree with the changes it is immature to say if you don't give me the ball in the shape, color, and texture with the stars and poka dots that I believe you promised then I will abandon it and demand my money back from a secondary company. Here is the question does the game work? Yes! Are you able to log in and play the current representation whenever you want? Yes! Do they give notice when the product will not be available due to necessary functions any continuous software must go through? Again yes!

Actually I neither agree nor disagree with the changes. But they did promise said content. The reason for all the hype is because the game is not "Finished". It was released as a broken, uncompleted mess missing key systems required for it to balance and work properly.

Renigging on promises concerning integral game systems, is a serious issue which directly effects consumer sales and experience with a product.

It has nothing to do with Oh jee, ZOS changed there mind on the color of that armor from black and silver to black and blue.... (Example). Who gives a flip?

It has to do with "Game is incomplete because said system is vague and broken compared to what was offered at purchase" We promise to fix it! (Then renigging and going nope we decided not to fix this integral game issue and just leave it as is).

HUGE difference.

So this opinion of the game was formed in Alpha? Beta? Release? Yesterday? Why did you stick around if the game was such a shambles? Please don't claim it was because of ZoS deception and promises! Anyone who has played MMO before this should understand the game is never released in a finished product nor is it ever able to reach that "finished" product. I also think you need to research how software is developed, there seems to be this idea that once I report a bug or feature not working as I think it should or the description making it sounds like it should work. That developers have this magic wand that they wave and make everything all better. It just doesn't work that way, I remember a comment on live when they where talking about the ultimate changes how people directly involved with the testing and building of the game had questions whether it was working correctly. So then they have to gather data, evaluate, adjust, gather, evaluate, etc, etc. So when there is a statement of we are working on/fixing this feature it is not a simple process. Then they base changes on the game and community feedback which might derail or change the things they where working on implementing.

Father · January 2015

Funny, the last thing that would drive people off is class mechanic

First comes Lag..broken classes and broken skills..bugged quests and content with each patch,with every new patch players found a new build with a broken mechanic.
Let alone all the stamina builds being gimped and everyone wearing a skirt and a stick, Tanks cry how their heavy armor gimped their gameplay.
The list goes on...
But they really worked hard on fixing the game..I gotta give them credit its more balanced than before and less frustrating :>

So yah it was a very bad launch..I just wonder if ZOS gonna come out stright in the future.
ZOS is just like a banana, can you strighten a banana :P? I hope you can..

Carina · January 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

Since 1.6 is going to be your last big update, are you essentially saying that this required and needed feature is no longer on the table? Because if that's the case I am un-subbing right now and demanding a full refund from my CC company, for the game, and every dime I have spent on it, as you have not and are not delivering the product which you promised you would. (Which seems to be a pattern of yours).

And Yes I can do this and it will be refunded, as this was stated as a Will be added feature which was promised over 6 months ago (Among other promises that you have failed to deliver and reniged on). And has not yet been added.

So Zennimax, did you lie to your consumers about future content? Yet again? or is this going to be added after 1.6? You should also note that you are going to lose most of (the rest) of your player base if this is not added.

B2P wont even save this game then.

This game, could be great, I've always said that. The ESO franchise is Unique and open for the market, you could make billions, if only you all would get your collective heads out of your *&^holes.

* Your design principles is what caused the game to fail at launch.
* Your inability to listen to the players in alpha and Beta caused the masses not to purchase your game.
* Your continuing denial that your screwing up, is causing you even more damage.

DO NOT, fail. In this. Or the next game you release will flop before it even makes it off the shelf. DO NOT become another EA.

I hear your frustrations, but why would you demand to get a refund on a service you paid for that you've already received (server access)?

Leeric · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Did they promise? I remember reading that they were working on it for the future, but I don't remember seeing anywhere that they absolutely guaranteed that it would happen. Maybe I missed it.

Some people want to convince unknowning players ZOS is a bunch of liars, go back on their word, and will rob them blind.

Telling people that ZOS promised this and promised that and has yet to deliver or gone back on the promises. Hoping people will get swept up in fear.

These are the same people at school, at work and in communities who spread rumors and lies to watch people go at it with each other. They enjoy watching drama and conflict.

lol are you serious?

Maybe you should go do some fact check before spreading your nonsense.
You perfectly described yourself.

Funkopotamus · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Did they promise? I remember reading that they were working on it for the future, but I don't remember seeing anywhere that they absolutely guaranteed that it would happen. Maybe I missed it.

Some people want to convince unknowning players ZOS is a bunch of liars, go back on their word, and will rob them blind.

Telling people that ZOS promised this and promised that and has yet to deliver or gone back on the promises. Hoping people will get swept up in fear.

These are the same people at school, at work and in communities who spread rumors and lies to watch people go at it with each other. They enjoy watching drama and conflict.

No these people are telling the TRUTH and if that TRUTH puts ZOS in a bad light it is not the persons fault it is ZOS.

There are sheep and then there are the fans that like the game but still want ZOS to hold to what thehy say they are going to do.. "OR NOT DO" -ftp/p2w- Agghhemmm..

Getting mad at a poster for posting the truth does nothing, but make you look like a sheep.

Carina · January 2015

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Did they promise? I remember reading that they were working on it for the future, but I don't remember seeing anywhere that they absolutely guaranteed that it would happen. Maybe I missed it.

Some people want to convince unknowning players ZOS is a bunch of liars, go back on their word, and will rob them blind.

Telling people that ZOS promised this and promised that and has yet to deliver or gone back on the promises. Hoping people will get swept up in fear.

These are the same people at school, at work and in communities who spread rumors and lies to watch people go at it with each other. They enjoy watching drama and conflict.

No these people are telling the TRUTH and if that TRUTH puts ZOS in a bad light it is not the persons fault it is ZOS.

There are sheep and then there are the fans that like the game but still want ZOS to hold to what thehy say they are going to do.. "OR NOT DO" -ftp/p2w- Agghhemmm..

Getting mad at a poster for posting the truth does nothing, but make you look like a sheep.

If people are not being heard, then they should speak with their wallet. Complaining on the forums (after already posting constructive criticism) gets people nowhere. It all just becomes a broken record.

Snowstrider · January 2015

Please the spellcrafting and Imperial city got to be free in a content update..

Funkopotamus · January 2015

Snowstrider wrote: »

Please the spellcrafting and Imperial city got to be free in a content update..

Spellcrafting will be in the Cash Shop for $15.99

Father · January 2015

I'm really against flamming...but some opinions here opened my mind a bit about this B2P change. If ZOS loses more money with this change its gonna be the end for sure :<

I dunno why but when watching Matt Firor on that video announcement I kinda felt that he was forced to do it

and that interviewer Pete Hines was like a bully and they don't like each other :P
But hey..thats just what I felt, could be wrong ^_^

Tapio75 · January 2015

Even while i agree that they should just stop and listen players more, even more really.. And they should have stayed on the current subscription model for PC version and i am disappointed with them and even angry at them about many things including fear that they will just conveniently forget the whole Spellcrafting...

They did say though.. 1.6 is last major update before console launch

That said, they also told that since they are now developing to both platforms which sounds odd, since they have been developing both versions all the time... Statement was that due this double development, content updates will come less frequently which made me concerned quite a bit..

Hell, i am not interested to suffer even more waiting in line, just to make crappy console game be in same line with development. Console version is different and they should have own teams separately developing PC and console versions.. Their statement "We are developing both simultaneously" makes me wonder can it really mean that they now have only half of development team which will work on both platforms. This sounds like a very bad news..

Exstazik · January 2015

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Snowstrider wrote: »

Please the spellcrafting and Imperial city got to be free in a content update..

Spellcrafting will be in the Cash Shop for $15.99

if it will be DLC i think ~35$

Tapio75 · January 2015

I am happy if free riders will have to pay extra for many things including this

However subscribers should get all with subscription.

PlagueMonk · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Did they promise? I remember reading that they were working on it for the future, but I don't remember seeing anywhere that they absolutely guaranteed that it would happen. Maybe I missed it.

Some people want to convince unknowning players ZOS is a bunch of liars, go back on their word, and will rob them blind.

Telling people that ZOS promised this and promised that and has yet to deliver or gone back on the promises. Hoping people will get swept up in fear.

These are the same people at school, at work and in communities who spread rumors and lies to watch people go at it with each other. They enjoy watching drama and conflict.

How about us being told AT THE BEGINNING that ESO would was using a sub model and would not be B2P/F2P so they could focus on giving us content, a quality game experience, etc?

How about the promise that we would be given content updates regularly every 4-6 weeks?

How about being told they WOULD be tracking exp so KEEP ON PLAYING and these would be converted into CP when the Champ system hit? Not even a "promise" they TOLD us they were doing it only to recant later.

And I quote:

Should players that are VR1+ still work towards VR12 or should they just wait until the new changes.

Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14. When the Champion System comes out we will reward you points right away based on the amount of XP you have earned up to a cap. In general, most people won’t reach the cap and we do not know what that cap is yet. We're still working out that value and making sure to take a look at the XP you all are earning.

I could go on but I think I have made my point and can see a trend

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Did they promise? I remember reading that they were working on it for the future, but I don't remember seeing anywhere that they absolutely guaranteed that it would happen. Maybe I missed it.

Some people want to convince unknowning players ZOS is a bunch of liars, go back on their word, and will rob them blind.

Telling people that ZOS promised this and promised that and has yet to deliver or gone back on the promises. Hoping people will get swept up in fear.

These are the same people at school, at work and in communities who spread rumors and lies to watch people go at it with each other. They enjoy watching drama and conflict.

While that may be true for some I have been around since Alpha. I remember vividly what went on and what has been said of the last Year 1/2, 2 years. Farell himself is the one who made the promise about spell-crafting on redit, he stated clearly "This is coming, and This will Happen".

Just like I told everyone 6 months ago when Sleeping Giant got involved, that the game would go F2p or B2p in the next 6 months to a year, People like you flamed me then, and called me a lier and stupid.

Guess what, I was exactly right. I do my research and I know WTF I am talking about. Especially with something like TES which is a franchise I have been in love with for damn near 10 years (if not longer) (Since Arena and Daggerfall).

Oh so Im supposed to just take your word for it?

How about you provide proof as in a link to this guys 'promise'. Otherwise I could give a rats *** how long youve been playing this game.

Nocturnalis · January 2015

Tapio75 wrote: »

I am happy if free riders will have to pay extra for many things including this
However subscribers should get all with subscription.

So it's just two different ways to pay for the same thing...?

eliisra · January 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

The OP is the type of player that causes ZOS to be tight lipped. They can't freely show us what they are working on or considering until they know 100% when it will release.

I wish more people were able to be shown a peek into what we may or may not get without getting belligerent when it isn't in the game a month or 2 later.

Well, here it's more like 9 months to a year later and still not in-game. Or how about never, they do change their mind about a lot of things. Impatient people might need some sort of therapy, after watching ZoS promos and streams about future content.

I honestly dont think it's cool trying to sell a game promoting and pushing content that still needs 12 months or more on the drawing-board. But of course, that's just my opinion

wraith808 · January 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

The OP is the type of player that causes ZOS to be tight lipped. They can't freely show us what they are working on or considering until they know 100% when it will release.

I wish more people were able to be shown a peek into what we may or may not get without getting belligerent when it isn't in the game a month or 2 later.

QFT. I wonder... how long would they have had to said something about the shift in direction to please the players. Probably before *they* even knew in all truth. And then, if they'd let us know an arbitrary amount before now... how much would people have been trying to torpedo it without even knowing how the implementation will go?

wraith808 · January 2015

Varicite wrote: »

"We do not currently have any plans to go free to play, that I'm aware of" sounds pretty intentionally misleading to their community, while they were quite clearly already working on the transition to a buy-to-play model.

How do you know that they had plans (especially the people that were saying that) at the time they said it? We don't. So basing future attitudes on suppositions...

Cody · January 2015

ESO has had a hard time SOELY due to the staff almost completely ignoring all of our complaints and bug reports. I am not surprised people are rage quitting.

bosmern_ESO · January 2015

1. ESO is a game, things change in games all the time
2. They never promised that Spell crafting was coming out
3. Your really that dramatic where you are judging the entire game and company by one update that hasn't had any news on its cancellation yet
4. You aren't entitled to a refund "Because ZoS promised"
5. Classes weren't the reason people liked the game, every MMO in the market has classes
6. don't say "I've got more than one account! this isn't my main posting account!"
7. Grow up.

Malpherian · January 2015

Valencer wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

This feature has been demanded by players since Alpha and Beta in Mass, and it is the only ray of hope they have for bringing the TES fanbois back in droves, because it essentially makes your class unlocked and 100% customizable (Just like the other TES games).

The "Classes" and their limitations and requirement to re-roll a character, was the reason the masses didn't sub after beta and the reason the release utterly flopped. It was a key component which was left out, which would make the game so much more then any other MMORPG. It should have been the priority update months ago.

You're claiming classes are the primary reason people didn't want to sub after beta and the primary reason ESO's launch was a bit rocky? If you're going to make stuff up, at least try to make sense.

I was vague in that statement let me clarify:

One of the major selling points which mislead consumers and why many were upset and did not purchase on release, was the promise that the class system would be open and fully customizable, with the "Classes" only being starting things to give people a head start but allowing you to build any type of character you wanted later on in game.

Hence === It was assumed, that the system would be like other TES games with Classes to simply start a player off with something, just like other TES games.

After it was found that classes are severely limited in the customizability, even to the point of requiring you to re-roll your character for a vast majority of Skills, and thus locking you out unless you want to level an alt.

People were pissed.... Really Pissed. For what the game was at the time, this was one of the key lynch pins in the cog-work that caused the launch to flop.

Was it the only one? Of course not. But I remember reading 100's of posts with 1000s of replies on multiple sites specifically complaining about how the system was not even remotely related tot he TES franchise, and the Vast majority of Fanbois, would not be purchasing the game until it was fixed.

This issue alone cost ZOS Millions in sales (and about 1.2 Million Subs). And was the first time ZOS intentionally mislead it's consumers. By attempting to piggyback on the TES success by comparing their model to it subtly and letting the consumer bases assumptions do the rest.

This game when it launched did not even remotely resemble an Elder Scrolls game, the only thing in common with the TES franchise, was the lore.

Malpherian · January 2015

Ommamar wrote: »

So this opinion of the game was formed in Alpha? Beta? Release? Yesterday? Why did you stick around if the game was such a shambles? Please don't claim it was because of ZoS deception and promises! Anyone who has played MMO before this should understand the game is never released in a finished product nor is it ever able to reach that "finished" product. I also think you need to research how software is developed, there seems to be this idea that once I report a bug or feature not working as I think it should or the description making it sounds like it should work. That developers have this magic wand that they wave and make everything all better. It just doesn't work that way, I remember a comment on live when they where talking about the ultimate changes how people directly involved with the testing and building of the game had questions whether it was working correctly. So then they have to gather data, evaluate, adjust, gather, evaluate, etc, etc. So when there is a statement of we are working on/fixing this feature it is not a simple process. Then they base changes on the game and community feedback which might derail or change the things they where working on implementing.

I stuck around because I'm a die hard TES fanboi. I left for the same reason 5 months ago, and just recently came back to check on the improvements, (Or lack there of).

Malpherian · January 2015

Carina wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Since 1.6 is going to be your last big update, are you essentially saying that this required and needed feature is no longer on the table? Because if that's the case I am un-subbing right now and demanding a full refund from my CC company, for the game, and every dime I have spent on it, as you have not and are not delivering the product which you promised you would. (Which seems to be a pattern of yours).

And Yes I can do this and it will be refunded, as this was stated as a Will be added feature which was promised over 6 months ago (Among other promises that you have failed to deliver and reniged on). And has not yet been added.

So Zennimax, did you lie to your consumers about future content? Yet again? or is this going to be added after 1.6? You should also note that you are going to lose most of (the rest) of your player base if this is not added.

B2P wont even save this game then.

This game, could be great, I've always said that. The ESO franchise is Unique and open for the market, you could make billions, if only you all would get your collective heads out of your *&^holes.

* Your design principles is what caused the game to fail at launch.
* Your inability to listen to the players in alpha and Beta caused the masses not to purchase your game.
* Your continuing denial that your screwing up, is causing you even more damage.

DO NOT, fail. In this. Or the next game you release will flop before it even makes it off the shelf. DO NOT become another EA.

I hear your frustrations, but why would you demand to get a refund on a service you paid for that you've already received (server access)?

I'm not sure I would, I posted that after being on hold with Customer service for three hours and getting Dc'd... I was pissed....

Malpherian · January 2015

Carina wrote: »

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Did they promise? I remember reading that they were working on it for the future, but I don't remember seeing anywhere that they absolutely guaranteed that it would happen. Maybe I missed it.

Some people want to convince unknowning players ZOS is a bunch of liars, go back on their word, and will rob them blind.

Telling people that ZOS promised this and promised that and has yet to deliver or gone back on the promises. Hoping people will get swept up in fear.

These are the same people at school, at work and in communities who spread rumors and lies to watch people go at it with each other. They enjoy watching drama and conflict.

No these people are telling the TRUTH and if that TRUTH puts ZOS in a bad light it is not the persons fault it is ZOS.

There are sheep and then there are the fans that like the game but still want ZOS to hold to what thehy say they are going to do.. "OR NOT DO" -ftp/p2w- Agghhemmm..

Getting mad at a poster for posting the truth does nothing, but make you look like a sheep.

If people are not being heard, then they should speak with their wallet. Complaining on the forums (after already posting constructive criticism) gets people nowhere. It all just becomes a broken record.

I did speak with my wallet I canceled my sub for 5 months....

Malpherian · January 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

"We do not currently have any plans to go free to play, that I'm aware of" sounds pretty intentionally misleading to their community, while they were quite clearly already working on the transition to a buy-to-play model.

How do you know that they had plans (especially the people that were saying that) at the time they said it? We don't. So basing future attitudes on suppositions...

Sleeping Giant, join the ZOS team One month after release the cover ZOS stated was that they were helping them with account management. I blew this out of the water when I pointed out what Sleeping Giant does as it's main income, and that is design F2P and B2P Market systems for MMO's and MMORPGs.

I posted an entire thread on it here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1094827#Comment_1094827

So ZOS blatantly Lied about what was going on to it's consumers, with the full intention of not holding to what they said, because they knew if they said anything, they would lose there subs because no one would pay for 9 months for a game that was going F2P (and had so many issues at launch), not to mention those lies and the subs they kept are the reason ZOS was able to limp along and get anything done.

If they had not lied, and kept their subs, this game would have died in Month 2. That is how BAD it was back then. Several Million copies were sold, they lost 60%-75% of their subs in the first 30 days the game launched.

Malpherian · January 2015

Here's a snippet from that post:

Malpherian ✭✭✭✭
July 2014
Alright seems to be some confusion here:

1. I never actually said ESO was going F2P. I said SG's specialty is F2P development, Which it is, no matter what else they do, every game they have helped on development went F2P shortly (Being 6 months to a year) after them joining, and I know for a Fact Tera and SWTOR partnered them, right before they went F2P.

Does this mean ESO is going to go F2P? No, SG does do other things with their teams besides F2P, But let me ask you this.

What does F2P Development entail?

* Cash Shop Purchases (This was misstated they handle account management from the purchases)
* Account integration and management
* Marketing, and IN game Marketing Development
* Reception studies for/and Development of Payment Systems

What does SG do?:

* Cash Shop Purchases (This was misstated they handle account management from the purchases)
* Account integration and management
* Marketing, and IN game Marketing Development
* Reception studies for/and Development of Payment Systems

SG does all of that and while this does not mean that they specifically are working on an F2P system for ESO, I guarantee you, they have one ready for display and are encouraging ZOS to go that route, especially with ESO bleeding Subs like they are.

If you ever played a Sub Game that went F2P, you know the first sign is an in game cash shop. If that is added there is a 99.9% chance the game is working it's way toward F2P. I have never played a Subscription MMO that added a cash shop and did not go free to play.

Some games I can use as evidence:

Tera
Aion
SWTOR
Perpetuum
EvE Online (Not Yet F2P but working it's way there according to the Dev blogs)
Rift

Which games have SG partnered with, which then went F2P 6 months to a year, year 1/2 later?

Tera
Aion
SWTOR
Rift

and Now

ESO (Not F2P/B2P yet)

This was a post I made back in July, about this entire thing in which I was flamed repeatedly for. :P I necroed the thread also as a slap in the face to the white Knight trolls.

Varicite · January 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

"We do not currently have any plans to go free to play, that I'm aware of" sounds pretty intentionally misleading to their community, while they were quite clearly already working on the transition to a buy-to-play model.

How do you know that they had plans (especially the people that were saying that) at the time they said it? We don't. So basing future attitudes on suppositions...

Because converting a game of this size from a subscription model to a fully-fledged B2P affair complete w/ cash shop, cash shop adverts, and all the trimmings that need to be added takes time. A LOT of time. Due to the time that it takes to prepare a game of this size for that transition, and their estimated timeframe for B2P release, it's obvious that this process began over the summer or early fall.

The last time ZOS was quoted as saying that there were no plans to go free to play that they were aware of was just a few months ago. It was also pretty odd that after each and every statement about this, they made sure to add "that we are aware of", which is PR-speak for "we can go back on this at any time".

It's really very clear that WHILE they were telling us they weren't going free-to-play, they were already IN the process of making the transition to a buy-to-play model, which is technically different than "free-to-play", and why I said they were being intentionally misleading and not outright lying.

It's still pretty shady and coupled w/ the handful of other times they have conveniently "changed their minds" after telling their players one thing, I'm wary of anything that they have to say about the future developments of this game.

Cuyler · January 2015

OOOH this is a hot button topic which means......a moderator will never post here with infos....

Ok now back to your regularly scheduled flaming

Varicite · January 2015

Cuyler wrote: »

OOOH this is a hot button topic which means......a moderator will never post here with infos....

Ok now back to your regularly scheduled flaming

To be completely fair, somebody already linked a dev quote saying that Spellcrafting is still planned to be implemented. : P

I just thought the discussion about ZOS' integrity was also pretty interesting.

MornaBaine · January 2015

The loss of Spellcrafting might very well make me reconsider keeping my sub as well. I was under the impression that its development was part of what I was paying for. It was disappointing enough to realize that the Champion System and the Justice System were going to be done before Spellcrafting.

ZOS you NEED to speak up about Spellcrafting and tell us if it's still in the works. You ALSO need to assure us that when you are ready to implement it, it will go in as a game update, NOT DLC and NOT some weird thing you figure out a way to make us pay for in the cash store.