Why NB's actually make the WORST stamina builds in PvP

jbradley1989b14_ESO · January 2015

There is a self heal in the support line. Rally, elude and purge make for pretty good survivability in melee.

TheBull · January 2015

buy 400 Health Tri-pots a week or don't even try.

Blurr really needs to be buffed. Especially when comparing it to something like hardening ward...

Fix cloak, buff blur.

Cody · January 2015

Its the lack of self heals that really kill us.

I can stand up to almost anyone, but my lack of self heals makes it a tad to difficult at times.

The DW skill that is coming "blade cloak" could very well be a stamina based damage shield, will be interesting to see how that turns out.

Bouvin · January 2015

Agree. Stamina based NB in PvP is pretty squishy and has less surviability.

Sure, you can get 80% weapon crit with capped Weapon Power and just slay people with bow.

But for face-to-face...you'll get wrecked.

This is why I've had about 6 respecs in 2 months on my Nightblade, trying to make Stamina work, getting fed up and going back to LA, then trying stamina again....

Really seems like Medium should have more survivability than Light. But you'd think the same for Heavy as well.

I guess we'll see in the patch notes tomorrow (crosses fingers) what things will look like moving forward. Might be a different game in 1.6 which is why I've held off from any recent respecs.

EsORising · January 2015

Vordae wrote: »

I disagree. If we give all the classes the same skills how will they be different. They need to improve the dodge mechanic. Dodge should be NB survivability tool. Blur dodge chance should be greatly increased. Like a 50% dodge chance but have a shorter duration or the effect ends after a certain number of dodges similar to how the new refect is going to work for DK.

Agree, the dodge night blades have is the same that everyone else has and takes so much stamina its almost not worth using. Dodge is prob more useful for mages and magicka builds since they don't need stamina to do dmg so they can waste it on rolling in the dirt. The dodge mechanic and dodge skills needs a revamp because they are north worth having on the bar. The skills almost seem bugged or something but i can't confirm that's true. Would be nice to have a NB exclusive dodge that costed very little stamina.

stumpy999 · January 2015

nightblade should be weak in close combat. they are supposed to be ambush predators. they are not intended to go toe to toe with melee fighters over time.

In quick, surprise damage, then gone. If target is still standing after initial rush then they are going to own you.

Seems to be working ok atm, it might just be that you playstyle is more suited to a dk etc

Sharee · January 2015

stumpy999 wrote: »

nightblade should be weak in close combat.

Using the same logic, a dragonknight should be weak in ranged combat. And we know how well that works, don't we.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · January 2015

I think NBs should have their own unique defense mechanism and it should be focused on blur.

Reduce the timer to 5 seconds but give it 50% miss chance and NBs will have their defense option without becoming a copy of other classes.

Vizier · January 2015

IMO forget adding shields and heals. The skills the NB has should be improved. Cloak needs to actually make the NB disappear and be untargetable by all attacks and spells for the duration. Increase the heal % on spells like funnel health and refreshing path and make sap essence nasty vs single target.

NB doesn't need new stuff. They just need what they have to work as it should.

Varicite · January 2015

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

So far I see that we are getting passives to take less damage as we roll dodge in the champion system and shadow cloak is suppose to be are defensive move since we have passives that increase defense. Night blades do not need damage shields and healing to survive.

Bolded the main issue w/ what you just said. Shadow Cloak does not work, thus NBs are saying they need shields / heals to survive.

Of course, we'd rather just have Shadow Cloak work the way it's supposed to, but as it's been a year now w/ 0 signs of the problem still being worked on, most of us are kinda tired of holding our breath.

stumpy999 wrote: »

In quick, surprise damage, then gone. If target is still standing after initial rush then they are going to own you.

There is no "then gone" when Shadow Cloak fails to work correctly quite frequently.

The rest of what you said is exactly the problem that the OP is trying to outline; because we have no real defenses and no real escape (due to broken Cloak), we are pigeon-holed into gank builds for stamina.

Darkonflare15 · January 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

So far I see that we are getting passives to take less damage as we roll dodge in the champion system and shadow cloak is suppose to be are defensive move since we have passives that increase defense. Night blades do not need damage shields and healing to survive.

Bolded the main issue w/ what you just said. Shadow Cloak does not work, thus NBs are saying they need shields / heals to survive.

Of course, we'd rather just have Shadow Cloak work the way it's supposed to, but as it's been a year now w/ 0 signs of the problem still being worked on, most of us are kinda tired of holding our breath.

stumpy999 wrote: »

In quick, surprise damage, then gone. If target is still standing after initial rush then they are going to own you.

There is no "then gone" when Shadow Cloak fails to work correctly quite frequently.

The rest of what you said is exactly the problem that the OP is trying to outline; because we have no real defenses and no real escape (due to broken Cloak), we are pigeon-holed into gank builds for stamina.

It was a main issue thus that is why I said it. Once they fixed that is no need for damage shield or healing but still even with a broken cloak you should still get the defense boost.

TheShadowScout · January 2015

I have to agree with all the points made.

Yes, stamina nightblades get wrecked face to face.
Yes, the only real chance they have is a sneak attack surprise kill. If the initial strike doesn't take down the opponent, we're toast if we can't hide behind some ally. Because our defensive skills are either underpowered, or don't work right.

How often have I tried to go invisible, only to have the cloak fail on me, either through some DoT of mine, or the enemy simply using some AoE (impulse, talons...) which equals respawn for any nightblade.

Or used sparks only to have my opponent hide behind an impenetrable block until the effects wore off? Popping a standard too if DK?

I swear, often I wonder if the only difficulty my opponents have with fighting my nightblade is to press the right buttons on their KB between all the laughing they must be doing... ;-p

I don't want a shield or super heal, each classes should be different and not turn into copies of each other with merely a chance in FX.
I just want something to let me have more of a chance then "gank or die". Less wonky cloaks and better blur and evasion would be neat. I would also love to have a automatic dodge chance against melee attacks built into medium armor... say, 5-10%, increased by popping evade... just so we don't die quite that fast.

Lynx7386 · January 2015

Like I keep saying, cloak should just provide immunity to everything for its duration. Make it more like phasing than invisibility.

Aeratus · January 2015

It is incorrect that Stamina NBs lack defensive measures.

One approach is to use the Shielded Assault morph of the Shield Charge skill. This gives a very good shield for its cost, and is both a defensive as well as an offensive skill (like the Templar's blazing shield). When there are multiple targets, just alternate shield charge on then. Against single targets, use magnum shot on bow, and then shield charge. Your shield can be up forever if you keep charging forever, and given how cheap stamina skills are nowadays (especially if you use one of the ophidian sets), you can pretty much shield charge endlessly.

Another method is to use the whitestrake set. In fact, you can even use the whitestrake set together with the arena set, by having 4 + 3 in armor, and the weapons being different sets.

And finally, put some points into stamina regen so you can sustain defense for a long time.

Obviously, if you just play as a pure gankblade, then you'll be wrecked in close combat. But the same is said of other classes as well.

kieso · January 2015

Lets not forget that unlike most other MMO's ESO's "rogue" ish class lacks the ability to get away with cloaking/invis since it's so easily negated.

Father · February 2015

Seriously...now come play pts and see for urself NB is doing great.
Blood craze heals tick for 700 non crit every 2 sec, rally heals tick for 800 and the last heal ticks for 4-5k non crit.
I still havnt unlocked the alliance skill which heals..but I'm gonna try it.
How many times rally spam saved my life I just cant take it off my bar.

Sharee · February 2015

Father wrote: »

Seriously...now come play pts and see for urself NB is doing great.
Blood craze heals tick for 700 non crit every 2 sec

That's like 70/tick on live.

I.e not very impressive at all.

Spangla · February 2015

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

So far I see that we are getting passives to take less damage as we roll dodge in the champion system and shadow cloak is suppose to be are defensive move since we have passives that increase defense. Night blades do not need damage shields and healing to survive.

Yes but cloak doesn't work.

Dazin93 · February 2015

I can't speak in regards to NB's, but stamina sorcs are just as bad off, if not worse. With the exception of streak, there isn't a single class skill for stamina sorcs that can't be equalled or bettered by other classes or skill lines.

Hardened ward is situational at best for a stam sorc as it scales from magicka and is expensive to use. There isn't much value in spamming a 4500 hp shield that costs around 4000 magicka and is burned through in a single hit.

Crit surge is a joke, expensive, and completely unreliable; rally is superior in every way.

All this talk of balancing and diversity from the champion system has only pigeonholed classes and builds even more both in pvp and pve roles.

Xsorus · February 2015

Dazin93 wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Stamina Sorcs aren't bad, simply because they generally rely on Critical Charge to set off Critical Surge. So they have a fairly reliable heal..

Based on this statement, i doubt you have played a stamina sorc extensively in Cyrodiil and seem to not be aware of the multiple ways to prevent a crit from landing.

Reliable it is not.

Critical Charge will always crit..so yea...

Fi'yra · February 2015

Wahee wrote: »

Father wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuX7zp1q83E

His build is great. It relies heavily on blazing shield to survive. Try that on a NB.

What? The discussion is about NB Stamina not Templars, that's a completely different class..

Father · February 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Father wrote: »

Seriously...now come play pts and see for urself NB is doing great.
Blood craze heals tick for 700 non crit every 2 sec

That's like 70/tick on live.

I.e not very impressive at all.

Forget about live...most players have 20-25k hp so 700 a tick is not bad. swallow soul ticks for 700 as well and im not even a magicka build.
Sap essence ticks 1k+ and again im no magicka >.<
alot of times spaming 2-3 rally got my health back full. I really went from 20% to 80% from 1 recast when it was around 15-10 sec.

Trust me..if you want to stay alive..hell even stay immortal in PVE pick up 2h and use brawler the dmg shield is TOO OP since it scales of stamina.
Right now tanks can tank in 2h hell even medium DD can do it ^.^

Shader_Shibes · February 2015

Father wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Father wrote: »

Seriously...now come play pts and see for urself NB is doing great.
Blood craze heals tick for 700 non crit every 2 sec

That's like 70/tick on live.

I.e not very impressive at all.

Trust me..if you want to stay alive..hell even stay immortal in PVE pick up 2h and use brawler the dmg shield is TOO OP since it scales of stamina.
Right now tanks can tank in 2h hell even medium DD can do it ^.^

Brawler plus dodge skills is a hoot, you take literally 0 damage.

Bouvin · February 2015

Wahee wrote: »

SNIP

Unless you're gank sniping, I agree Stamina NB is pretty squishy.

For 1v1, group utility, and survive-ability Magicka seems the only way to go.

Bar 1 can have all of your melee DPS NB Skills (magicka based). I like to use board and sword for the extra armor, enchant, and set bonus spot.

Bar 2: Resto Staff, Ward + Harness Magicka for shields, and Rapid Regen or Mutagen for heals. For the other two slots I swap out a lot for situation, but Immovable is nice for surviving, shadow image is nice as well because it allows you to port and shadow cloak to hide. I also Crippling on that bar quite a bit.

Stamina, I just never saw a big increase in survivability with Elude. Sniping is fun.. but when I'd get into 1 on 1 where I didn't get the jump on someone I could never get a good setup on the other bar with stamina based skills. I've tried DW, 2H, and 1H and Shield w/ stamina.. I actually have all skills to 50 on my NB and all morphs leveled compeltely.

HOWEVER. I'd love to see some good videos of Stamina Based NB owning people because I'm always interested in other people's builds. But for me Magicka has always won out.

Sharee · February 2015

Father wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Father wrote: »

Seriously...now come play pts and see for urself NB is doing great.
Blood craze heals tick for 700 non crit every 2 sec

That's like 70/tick on live.

I.e not very impressive at all.

Forget about live...most players have 20-25k hp so 700 a tick is not bad.

When you are getting pelted by 10+K bolts and 6+K curses, 700 healed every 2 seconds has even less of an effect than on live.

jelliedsoup · March 2015

Mainly because zos are incapable of designing the game around diversity and making it somewhat even.

pecheckler · March 2015

Created nightblade last week. Enjoyed tanking all level 15 dungeons this evening as full stamina nightblade. Read this thread.

sad

sagitter · March 2015

pecheckler wrote: »

Created nightblade last week. Enjoyed tanking all level 15 dungeons this evening as full stamina nightblade. Read this thread.

sad

Nb = 30% stam regen, awesome both pve and pvp.

frould · March 2015

1. They have cloak.
2. They are gimmicky mean hard to be effective.

Sylvyr · March 2015

I don't want NBs to be like all the other classes, I don't want all classes to hae the same stuff... if we do that just get rid of classes (which would be ok if we had spell crafting)

But if NBs can't have shields they should excel at something else...