Why NB's actually make the WORST stamina builds in PvP

Wahee · January 2015

...they have no access to a class based shield or heal. They share the same damage potential as any other stamina build, but without the survivability options.

Stamina nightblades are by far the squishiest build possible. Self heals and shields are incredibly important for survivability and allow other classes to create stamina builds with high survivability due to a magicka bar dedicated solely to heals and shields while relying on stamina and weapon skills for damage. Nightblades do not have this option. A nightblade's only class defensive skills are cloak and blur. Blur is very underwhelming and cloak is well known to be buggy if not outright broken. Even if cloak worked 100% of the time it does not compare to shields that allow the player to soak damage while continuing to fight. The skills are apples and oranges and cloak is not a suitable replacement for the lack of a class shield or heal.

Almost all competitive magicka NB builds rely on resto staff for their shield and heals. Some also use harness magicka as well. Unfortunately, resto staff doesn't really work with stamina builds (especially with 1.6 changes), and harness magicka is relatively small (500) for a high cost, and benefits per piece of light armor worn. Again, doesn't really work with stamina builds.

A stamina nightblades only reliable heal is from 2H rally. The skill is great, but a small HoT and heal alone is not enough to survive or outlast incoming damage the same way other classes can with class skills.

I've seen some really effective templar stamina builds that heavily rely on blazing shield and breath of life. The same goes for DK's with frag shield, wings, and GDB. A stamina Sorc has access to hardened ward. The common link here is class based defensive skills that draw from the magicka pool.

Nightblade stamina builds can kill people sure, but they fold like wet newspaper under any pressure at all. No other stamina build is as squishy. As a nightblade player I'm not content to plink at the edges of a fight with a bow or run away every time i get focused. Other classes can play stam builds and stand up to a fight, even against the current magicka shield/block/heal meta. Nightblades can't.

TLDR: Heals and shields are extremely strong and allow other classes stam builds to tank damage with their magicka pool. Nightblades are forced to use resto staff and/or harness magicka for their shields/heals. Stamina nightblades can't use either of these skills effectively, making them the squishiest build of any class and the only build without access to an effective shield of any kind.

Please, make blur into a shield or just add a decent shield to a guild or undaunted skill line that isn't dependent on wearing light armor for effectiveness. I love playing stamina, but for nightblades resto staff and magicka builds are necessary to compete in a shield/block/heal meta world if you want to actually stand up to a fight.

P.S. - Sniping on the edge of a fight and ganking off horses is cool and all, but not what I would consider competitive PvP. Any other class with a stamina build can do the same, but with the added survivability to actually engage in toe-to-toe fight.

arena25 · January 2015

Solution #1 to nightblade problem:

1. From the siphoning skill line, use Strife (Swallow Soul). It will damage your opponent and heal you for a quarter of the damage dealt to your opponent every 2 sec for 10 sec. I like this spell because it will keep me in tip top condition for a little while longer, making this spell necessary for soloing boss fights (along with Ultimates, but that's another story).
2. Equip a one handed weapon and a shield. Shield grants you additional armor.

Solution #2 to nightblade problem:

1. Same as Solution #1.
2. Equip a bow. Stay faraway.

That's my two cents on it.

Varicite · January 2015

They are still the best stamina class in PvE, though.

Everybody already knows that NBs get shafted in PvP when it comes to class-based defensives, and thus stamina NBs are pigeon-holed into stealth burst / gank types of builds.

This is of course exacerbated by the oft-mentioned by players, rarely mentioned by devs Shadow Cloak mechanics that may or may not still be getting worked on.

Wahee · January 2015

arena25 wrote: »

Solution #1 to nightblade problem:

1. From the siphoning skill line, use Strife (Swallow Soul). It will damage your opponent and heal you for a quarter of the damage dealt to your opponent every 2 sec for 10 sec. I like this spell because it will keep me in tip top condition for a little while longer, making this spell necessary for soloing boss fights (along with Ultimates, but that's another story).
2. Equip a one handed weapon and a shield. Shield grants you additional armor.

Strife is just a weak HoT, and an especially weak one at that for a stamina build as the size of the heal depends on damage done and it scales off of spell power and magicka.

1H/S is great and sure it adds armor and block passives, but that doesn't come close to making up for the lack of a class shield or heal. It also restricts the weapon skills you have access to for the sake of survivability, a compromise that other classes don't have to make with their stamina builds.

Varicite wrote: »

Everybody already knows that NBs get shafted in PvP when it comes to class-based defensives, and thus stamina NBs are pigeon-holed into stealth burst / gank types of builds.

Exactly! And lets be honest, sneak attack damage is not what it used to be and may very well be made even less effective in 1.6. Everyone else can play stamina and go toe-to-toe in a real fight and also have the same ganking/burst power. Nightblades have to gank or run away. There is a huge power gap between nightblade stamina and every other class as stamina.

Vordae · January 2015

I disagree. If we give all the classes the same skills how will they be different. They need to improve the dodge mechanic. Dodge should be NB survivability tool. Blur dodge chance should be greatly increased. Like a 50% dodge chance but have a shorter duration or the effect ends after a certain number of dodges similar to how the new refect is going to work for DK.

Father · January 2015

I'm happy with my stamina nb in pvp, I use 2h + bow classic combo.
I'm not sure how does a dmg shield help you that much before harness magicka nerf it was viable, nowdays shield stacking is meh.

From my personal experience with shields I have zero problems with shield stackers and specialy Blazing shileld templars, simply spam poison injection+crippling grasp the dot passes the dmg shield.

DK frag shield does little dmg and hardly has any effect in 1 on 1 situation.
In groups every little buff counts so ya people use it,I think most DK use Obsidian shield for the 30% healing buff on the first 6 sec, not the frag morph.

Imo just fix Cloak, and everything will be sweet, lately i've been using it without problems i can do 3-4 cloaks before magicka runs out and im stamina build :>

I can tell you for sure, the worst Stamina build for PVP is sorc, due to the main healing they get is from Critical Surge, and you know and everyone knows..that impenetrable killed crit builds in pvp..so no crit = no heal at all thats alot weaker than low dmg swallow soul with 100hots hehe :>
Let alone the only escape method bolt escape nerfed to the ground with the high cost per use so stamina build sorc can't use it like their magicka brethren.

Zhoyzu · January 2015

7 piece evade is a strong solution. its a psuedo invis and a 21% dodge rating or higher and stacks with blur. that and cloak dodge roll is pretty strong

Wahee · January 2015

Father wrote: »

I'm not sure how does a dmg shield help you that much before harness magicka nerf it was viable, nowdays shield stacking is meh.

Damage shields allow you to continue to fight while taking zero damage as long as you have magicka left. They are huge. Shields make it so you only die when both resource pools are depleted.

Take a look at this and see if you can survive like that as a stamina build without a shield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuX7zp1q83E

His build is great. It relies heavily on blazing shield to survive. Try that on a NB.

Dazin93 · January 2015

Father wrote: »

I can tell you for sure, the worst Stamina build for PVP is sorc, due to the main healing they get is from Critical Surge, and you know and everyone knows..that impenetrable killed crit builds in pvp..so no crit = no heal at all thats alot weaker than low dmg swallow soul with 100hots hehe :>
Let alone the only escape method bolt escape nerfed to the ground with the high cost per use so stamina build sorc can't use it like their magicka brethren.

^^This. Though I prefer to think of it as the most challenging. I have been playing a stamina sorc for over 8 months now and it's fun for me personally, yet has some glaring issues.

In addition to what was already stated, hardened ward scales from your magicka pool so I get around a 450hp shield with 1500 magicka not to mention a high cost to use, compounded by the high cost of streak and crit surge. It's situational at best.

Sorcs also don't have class skills that return stamina so it's pretty much burst or die as you don't have the ability to sustain long fights.

In fact the only class skills that I consider must haves on my bar are streak, crit surge, and negate is in a group. I image you have more viable class skills to choose from than that.

None of this matters though until we see what 1.6 brings.

Father · January 2015

You want to give NB a blazing shield? thats the templar signiture move along with breath of life.
My advice roll a templar and learn its weaknesses. you might change your mind once you play one. Just because 1 build is very good with Blazing shield doesn't make dmg shield highly rated.
If you stay away from the templar hes no threat,how many ranged skills does the templar have that can actualy hurt you? thats just my opinion.
I'm not gonna start NB vs Templar discussion.

On the other hand if DK gets an execute in update 6, we might as well get a nice deffense buff in return

Wahee · January 2015

Father wrote: »

You want to give NB a blazing shield? thats the templar signiture move along with breath of life.
My advice roll a templar and learn its weaknesses. you might change your mind once you play one. Just because 1 build is very good with Blazing shield doesn't make dmg shield highly rated.
If you stay away from the templar hes no threat,how many ranged skills does the templar have that can actualy hurt you? thats just my opinion.
I'm not gonna start NB vs Templar discussion.

On the other hand if DK gets an execute in update 6, we might as well get a nice deffense buff in return

I don't want nightblades to get blazing shield, that was just a good example of how class shields and heals add huge survivability to stamina builds. What I would consider a best case scenario would be the addition of a decent all-around shield to the mages guild line that everyone, including nightblades, had access to.

...and the thing about templars, that build's main burst comes from closing a gap with crit rush. He wants you to try to stay away so he gets a bigger damage bonus when he closes the gap, but lets not make this into a templar discussion

eliisra · January 2015

Wahee wrote: »

Strife is just a weak HoT, and an especially weak one at that for a stamina build as the size of the heal depends on damage done and it scales off of spell power and magicka.

It's not that different from other classes using stamina builds. Only exception when it comes to class heals is GDB (DK lol) scaling of max health. They can run a stamina build and still self-heal for big numbers.

Templar class heals are pathetic if you're using stam build. Costs half your magicka pool and heals for nothing. Sorcerer Hardened Ward also scales of spell-power and magicka.

Blazing Shield does have a set 30% strength value, same with the 53% reflect. It's what makes a templar stam build not suck in PvP. But you still don't have enough magicka to sustain actual dmg with Sun Shield. You can only use it sparsely. Same goes for any class shield.

Best defence for all stamina build are cheap roll-dodges (I can roll dodge half the map really), stacking evade, miss, dodge and Restoration Staff scaling of weapon power, healing for loads. It's obviously not a great design, kills any form of flexibility and like many I'm hoping for stamina morphs in 1.6. Specially since resto staff will scale of spell power in the future, meaning stam builds cant use that either.

Father · January 2015

Self heal from guild\ world skill line is a good idea...maybe a revamp of the useless \ semi-useless \ unpopular blood altar from undaunted tree :<

squshy7 · January 2015

This is a valid topic, and one that I have a detailed post inbound on, but I'm waiting until after 1.6 hits PTS to change my thoughts based on what's upcoming. In a nutshell though, the upcoming change to impenetrable finally (partially) decouples the Sorc class from the Rest Staff. Nightblades are the last piece of the puzzle.

starkerealm · January 2015

Wahee wrote: »

...they have no access to a class based shield or heal. They share the same damage potential as any other stamina build, but without the survivability options.

They also have access to a passive that gives them a flat +30% stamina regen rate. And there are stamina shields and heals. They aren't better for a nightblade, but they are effectively cheaper.

Wahee · January 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Wahee wrote: »

...they have no access to a class based shield or heal. They share the same damage potential as any other stamina build, but without the survivability options.

They also have access to a passive that gives them a flat +30% stamina regen rate. And there are stamina shields and heals. They aren't better for a nightblade, but they are effectively cheaper.

Sure the regen thing is true. Templars and DK's also have access to stam regen boosts.

In general the stamina heals are all pretty lackluster except for Rally. Hopefully the new 1.6 alliance war stam heal is decent. There are no stamina based shields except for 2H brawler, which is roughly 160pts per target hit and requires you to be in melee and attacking multiple targets bunched together to be useful at all.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · January 2015

Umm nobody said Anything about the ability VIGOR that is coming in patch 1.6

OK for those not in the know, Vigor is gonna be a Stamina Heal in PvP under the Alliance War, either the Assault or support skill line and this will most likely make Nightblades a little less squishy..

Also Yes, Shadow Cloak and it's Morph's need to be fixed.. will they ??..well for ZOS's sake they BETTER be if they are gonna move this game to the Consoles, otherwise those Console Nightblade players will eat them alive..

and yes Stamina Nightblades are squishy, but we can definitely kill people, lots of people, I played like 2-3 nights ago in PvP for only a couple of hours and I killed like 75+ people, and yes I died like 12 times that night.. but I expect to loose sometimes since it is part of the Game.

(BTW that was on my VR11 ALT Duplicate Kotaro-Atani, not my original Main who is VR14 and my VR11 was only using epic, purple gear and not using my Legendary gear that is on my VR14)

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · January 2015

Wahee wrote: »

There are no stamina based shields except for 2H brawler, which is roughly 160pts per target hit and requires you to be in melee and attacking multiple targets bunched together to be useful at all.

Yeah, Brawler is really only good for attacking bunches of targets when in PvE, it works good for Grinding though.. just turn on Siphoning Attacks, use Rally or Sap essence and Spam away Brawler, and with the Flawless Dawnbreaker Ultimate slotted (to offset the loss in Damage) it's the Perfect grinding tool for attacking multiple mobs..

TheBucket · January 2015

Thirsty Build. Run -15 sec on potion Glyphs. I never die. I have cloak and stamina for days.

Lynx7386 · January 2015

...they have no access to a class based shield or heal. They share the same damage potential as any other stamina build, but without the survivability options.

For two handed nightblades, a combination of rally and swallow soul (and potentially adding refreshing path into the mix) provides decent healing over time and a somewhat decent burst heal with rally depending on timing.
While it takes significantly more skill to use than the 'instant' heals for other classes, reaper's mark is an extremely powerful heal in both pve and pvp, you just have to apply it right before killing a target rather than putting it on early and suffering the penalties.

As far as sharing damage potential, that isnt quite true. Nightblades have more passive stamina regeneration than any other class (30% through refreshing shadows) and they can combine that with another 40% through haste. More stamina means more attacks as well as more dodging.
Nightblades also have 10% higher critical strike damage bonus than any other class through the hemorrhage passive, and a larger next-attack damage bonus than any other class gets through ambush. Depending on your bar setup you can also achieve up to 15-18% higher critical chance due to the pressure points passive.

While you're right that we lack a self damage shield, hopefully that will be remedied through spellcrafting.

Now, all of that said, I do agree that cloak and blur are in dire need of help. They really should just make cloak provide immunity to everything, including damage, for it's 2.5 second duration, only dropping early if you attack or use another spell. As for blur, I'd love to see it altered into a proper damage shield.

Sharee · January 2015

As a pure stamina DW NB i fully agree with the OP. Basically my in-combat survivability comes from roll dodging, and that's it.

Reverb · January 2015

I'm a "mostly stamina" NB, in large part for the reasons outlined by the OP. I rely on swallow soul for self heals, and bone shield in melee situations, and both require adequate magicka.

DDuke · January 2015

So the OPs solution is to make everyone perform the same function in PvP?

Spam heals/shields until oom, while holding block.

Sure way to bring diversity to PvP...

How about making things like cloak actually work, and tone down the dependency on being a "healer tank dps" character?

This could be achieved by separating spell damage & healing, meaning you'd have to take a big hit on your amount DPS if you decided to go heals/dmg shields route (or you could have both +healing & dmg and be average on both).

There should be absolutely no reason for someone to have to pick up a heal or dmg shield in order to be competitive.

I want to play a pure damage dealer, just like you can in every other RPG/MMO out there, not a healer, not a tank.

I disagree with the OPs notion, which would only lessen the diversity of playstyles & archetypes in PvP.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Xsorus · January 2015

Stamina Sorcs aren't bad, simply because they generally rely on Critical Charge to set off Critical Surge. So they have a fairly reliable heal...

Problem is you have to be careful about giving Nightblades a heal similar to DK's/Templars..the reason both of those classes have those heals is unlike Nightblades/Sorcs, they can't just run from a fight willy nilly...You might think Dark Cloak doesn't let you escape a lot, but as someone with a Nightblade I can tell you've i've escaped far more fights with it then i ever have on my DK.

You can already see what giving even a slightly mediocre heal does for Magicka NB's in one vs one and such...

Wahee · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

So the OPs solution is to make everyone perform the same function in PvP?

Spam heals/shields until oom, while holding block.

Sure way to bring diversity to PvP...

How about making things like cloak actually work, and tone down the dependency on being a "healer tank dps" character?

This could be achieved by separating spell damage & healing, meaning you'd have to take a big hit on your amount DPS if you decided to go heals/dmg shields route (or you could have both +healing & dmg and be average on both).

There should be absolutely no reason for someone to have to pick up a heal or dmg shield in order to be competitive.

I want to play a pure damage dealer, just like you can in every other RPG/MMO out there, not a healer, not a tank.

I disagree with the OPs notion, which would only lessen the diversity of playstyles & archetypes in PvP.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I totally agree with you actually. I find the current shield/heal/block meta extremely boring and there is almost zero diversity with most of the "competitive" builds running very similar setups as far as mechanics go. I'd prefer it if shields and heals and blocking required some kind of sacrifice to use effectively (loss of dmg output, scaling changes, whatever). As is stands though, especially in light of recent events, I just don't see these core systems changing.

I enjoy stamina builds for exactly the reasons you mentioned, they differ from the current boring meta and feel much more active to play. I'd just like to see a few changes that allow players of all classes to run effective stamina builds and I see the lack of defensive options as a limiting factor.

A shield or heal skill in the mages guild line, for example, allows nightblades to run without resto staff and try out other less used weapons while remaining effective. Yea, everyone is still using dmg shields and heals (that will never change as long as they work like they currently do), but at least you've gotten some weapon/build diversity out of it.

I want to not play a S&B/Resto block-casting NB. That is the whole point. Adding defensive skills available to all weapons/classes/builds allows more diversity by not forcing you into certain setups to get the abilities you need.

Asgari · January 2015

NB's also have insane passive for potion effectiveness and have the ability to do hit damge crits from stealth that can be followed up by a swallow soul for high dmg and hot heal.

NB's are the best for 1v1 stamina and templars are the best for 1vX stamina.

Ommamar · January 2015

Wahee wrote: »

Father wrote: »

I'm not sure how does a dmg shield help you that much before harness magicka nerf it was viable, nowdays shield stacking is meh.

Damage shields allow you to continue to fight while taking zero damage as long as you have magicka left. They are huge. Shields make it so you only die when both resource pools are depleted.

Take a look at this and see if you can survive like that as a stamina build without a shield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuX7zp1q83E

His build is great. It relies heavily on blazing shield to survive. Try that on a NB.

That is a great video thanks for posting it, something I will show friends who are unsure about trying the game. He does shield a lot but I think his survivability is more based on mobility, use of environment and team work.

I am also a member of the wait until update 6 to see how skills and build change. Your motivation might of been for a future update but until we see how the revamp and CP system changes things we can't really judge the effectiveness of anything.

Darkonflare15 · January 2015

So far I see that we are getting passives to take less damage as we roll dodge in the champion system and shadow cloak is suppose to be are defensive move since we have passives that increase defense. Night blades do not need damage shields and healing to survive.

Verdwhisper · January 2015

stamina sorc? hardened ward? not really, it is based on max magicka and you r building a stamina sorc, sry, it is almost nothing. I have seen a lot of great stamina build nb, ask around.

TheShadowScout · January 2015

Stamina dual-wield mightblade on my main, and I too have to agree with the OP. Which is why I switch to bow for PvP, then at least I have some chance of sniping a few kills from stealth, since I pretty much have none in any kind of melee due to squishyness aggrivated by nop decent emergency self-heals.

Wish there was something to add a bit more survivability in close combat. Maybe some basic evade chance built into medium armor... since with nightblades I'd rather dodge blows then damage-shield-absorb them. Or a decent blur (I get envy cramps every time I compare it to the DKs ash cloud...)

But hey, I still have fun playing...

Dazin93 · January 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Stamina Sorcs aren't bad, simply because they generally rely on Critical Charge to set off Critical Surge. So they have a fairly reliable heal..

Based on this statement, i doubt you have played a stamina sorc extensively in Cyrodiil and seem to not be aware of the multiple ways to prevent a crit from landing.

Reliable it is not.