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Buying XP boosts =more champion points= paying for advantage?
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.
Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.
How is this such a hard concept...
You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"
Might be a hard concept for you, because for most people in the real world time is money.
Just google "time is money" and you will see how that concept is in almost everyones head, so you are the exception here.
dont get me wrong, its neither bad nor good, everyone has to decide for himself.
but it is the concept that is used in the world, and as such it can quite easily apply to a game which is in this real world environment, where a company has to earn money.
If time is money, I must be spending it pretty well being part of a succesfull hedge fund
I don't really need you to try & educate me about money.
You can't have competitive games, where certain people have more advantages because they have more $$$. That does not work in real life either
And people defending this concept, people who need $$$ to become good in video games, repulse me tbhEdited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 5:45PM4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.
Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?
Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.
P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.
They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.
People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.
Example:
10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X
Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.
So someone with a better job should be better & have advantages in game as well?
Essentially, you're defending P2W.
I don't give a crap what your job is, how many kids you have to feed or how much money you have, that should never provide an advantage in a competitive environment.
That's not how it works in real life either.
You don't go into a football field, flaunt your money around & become a good player.
In fact, it's the other way around usually.
You missed the part where X is the same for both players. There is no advantage.
It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.
Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.
How is this such a hard concept...
You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"
It's not a hard concept. You just don't get it.
Person A: Has no job, pays no money, and spend all his time freeloading on his mothers couch playing ESO. He racks up massive amounts of XP because he has so much free time.
Person B: Like to play but has to work and spend time with his family. He has less time to play and would like to trade some of his time from work with time in the game. This trade will use a currency called US Dollars.
Either way, Both person A and B end us with character X. This is the exact same character and has no advantages. If you can't understand this, there's no point in arguing. You just don't get it. Not everyone is good with logic so whatever.
Wow, I like your stereotypes. Must be hard to cross a street in that black & white world.
So "Person B" is a more valued individual in game as well, because he spends time with his family & works?
How about a "Person C", who is rich and doesn't have to work. He spends all his time in game and all his $$$ in Cash Shop.
Is he also more valued than "Person A"?
What next, should Persons B & C become a better footballer, because he gives the coach $$$? Should they perhaps skip you in line in supermarkets & spit on you from balconies as well?
People like you make me sick.
Again, you are missing the part where character X is the same for all of them. If character X has no advantages, then it doesn't matter how they got there, each person spent something and got the exact same end results.
You might think time does not equal money, but this game will now allow you to trade time for money. *** and moan all you want. It's going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it.
You trade grinding time for money, that is exactly what is wrong with these scams.
Person A grinds 100 hours (be it money, XP, whatever) to achieve objective X
Person B grinds 110 hours (be it money, XP, whatever) to achieve objective X
Person A not only achieves the objective, but also has 10 hours to spend working on objective Y.
Person A is thus more efficient & better than you in game.
Your whole twisted logic would make sense if there was only "character X", if this was a single player game you can finish.
It's not, it's a MMO where there is more objectives than your "character X", and most people playing never even achieve all these objectives.
What next, do you want full raid gear because you have $$$?
Screw all those players working hard for it & actually earning it, right?Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 5:51PM5 -
EsORising✭✭✭XP Boosters have nothing to do with winning. Everything they get you can get to by spending a little more time. People have to get something for their money the server can't run on hopes, dreams and jujubeans.
Almost all the people that pay for boosters have a lot less time because they actually have a job. So it's unfair for the people that have all the time in the world and no money to complain about people paying for boosters to catch up.
Xp boosters is definitely not pay to win. Ive seen pay to win and it's looks like paying 500+ bucks to enchant weapons to near impossible odds on korean MMOs.Edited by EsORising on January 25, 2015 5:54PM1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.
Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?
Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.
P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.
They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.
People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.
Example:
10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X
Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.
So someone with a better job should be better & have advantages in game as well?
Essentially, you're defending P2W.
I don't give a crap what your job is, how many kids you have to feed or how much money you have, that should never provide an advantage in a competitive environment.
That's not how it works in real life either.
You don't go into a football field, flaunt your money around & become a good player.
In fact, it's the other way around usually.
You missed the part where X is the same for both players. There is no advantage.
It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.
Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.
How is this such a hard concept...
You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"
It's not a hard concept. You just don't get it.
Person A: Has no job, pays no money, and spend all his time freeloading on his mothers couch playing ESO. He racks up massive amounts of XP because he has so much free time.
Person B: Like to play but has to work and spend time with his family. He has less time to play and would like to trade some of his time from work with time in the game. This trade will use a currency called US Dollars.
Either way, Both person A and B end us with character X. This is the exact same character and has no advantages. If you can't understand this, there's no point in arguing. You just don't get it. Not everyone is good with logic so whatever.
Wow, I like your stereotypes. Must be hard to cross a street in that black & white world.
So "Person B" is a more valued individual in game as well, because he spends time with his family & works?
How about a "Person C", who is rich and doesn't have to work. He spends all his time in game and all his $$$ in Cash Shop.
Is he also more valued than "Person A"?
What next, should Persons B & C become a better footballer, because he gives the coach $$$? Should they perhaps skip you in line in supermarkets & spit on you from balconies as well?
People like you make me sick.
Again, you are missing the part where character X is the same for all of them. If character X has no advantages, then it doesn't matter how they got there, each person spent something and got the exact same end results.
You might think time does not equal money, but this game will now allow you to trade time for money. *** and moan all you want. It's going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it.
You trade grinding time for money, that is exactly what is wrong with these scams.
Person A grinds 100 hours (be it money, XP, whatever) to achieve objective X
Person B grinds 110 hours (be it money, XP, whatever) to achieve objective X
Person A not only achieves the objective, but also has 10 hours to spend working on objective Y.
Person A is thus more efficient & better than you in game.
Your whole twisted logic would make sense if there was only "character X", if this was a single player game you can finish.
It's not, it's a MMO where there is more objectives than your "character X", and most people playing never even achieve all these objectives.
What next, do you want full raid gear because you have $$$?
Screw all those players working hard for it & actually earning it, right?
You're pointing at a different problem with the game. The fact that the climb to the top has no end is the problem. The game allows people who spend countless hours to gain huge advantage over other players. That's not skill. It's just trading your time for advantage. You might think you earned that advantage by trading time for it. I think it's equally fair for others to trade the money they earned for the same advantage.Edited by SFBryan18 on January 25, 2015 5:57PM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭XP Boosters have nothing to do with winning. Everything they get you can get to by spending a little more time. People have to get something for their money the server can't run on hopes, dreams and jujubeans.
Almost all the people that pay for boosters have a lot less time because they actually have a job. So it's unfair for the people that have all the time in the world and no money to complain about people paying for boosters to catch up.
Xp boosters is definitely not pay to win. Ive seen pay to win and it's looks like paying 500+ bucks to enchant weapons to near impossible odds on korean MMOs.
How about they get things that don't affect other players' gameplay?
Such as cosmetics, name changes, server transfers?
Apart from that, you've got the DLC coming.
But who am I kidding, they're going to add as much P2W crap as possible seeing they have a player base that mostly tolerates that *** 4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.
Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?
Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.
P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.
They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.
People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.
Example:
10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X
Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.
So someone with a better job should be better & have advantages in game as well?
Essentially, you're defending P2W.
I don't give a crap what your job is, how many kids you have to feed or how much money you have, that should never provide an advantage in a competitive environment.
That's not how it works in real life either.
You don't go into a football field, flaunt your money around & become a good player.
In fact, it's the other way around usually.
You missed the part where X is the same for both players. There is no advantage.
It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.
Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.
How is this such a hard concept...
You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"
It's not a hard concept. You just don't get it.
Person A: Has no job, pays no money, and spend all his time freeloading on his mothers couch playing ESO. He racks up massive amounts of XP because he has so much free time.
Person B: Like to play but has to work and spend time with his family. He has less time to play and would like to trade some of his time from work with time in the game. This trade will use a currency called US Dollars.
Either way, Both person A and B end us with character X. This is the exact same character and has no advantages. If you can't understand this, there's no point in arguing. You just don't get it. Not everyone is good with logic so whatever.
Wow, I like your stereotypes. Must be hard to cross a street in that black & white world.
So "Person B" is a more valued individual in game as well, because he spends time with his family & works?
How about a "Person C", who is rich and doesn't have to work. He spends all his time in game and all his $$$ in Cash Shop.
Is he also more valued than "Person A"?
What next, should Persons B & C become a better footballer, because he gives the coach $$$? Should they perhaps skip you in line in supermarkets & spit on you from balconies as well?
People like you make me sick.
Again, you are missing the part where character X is the same for all of them. If character X has no advantages, then it doesn't matter how they got there, each person spent something and got the exact same end results.
You might think time does not equal money, but this game will now allow you to trade time for money. *** and moan all you want. It's going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it.
You trade grinding time for money, that is exactly what is wrong with these scams.
Person A grinds 100 hours (be it money, XP, whatever) to achieve objective X
Person B grinds 110 hours (be it money, XP, whatever) to achieve objective X
Person A not only achieves the objective, but also has 10 hours to spend working on objective Y.
Person A is thus more efficient & better than you in game.
Your whole twisted logic would make sense if there was only "character X", if this was a single player game you can finish.
It's not, it's a MMO where there is more objectives than your "character X", and most people playing never even achieve all these objectives.
What next, do you want full raid gear because you have $$$?
Screw all those players working hard for it & actually earning it, right?
You're pointing at a different problem with the game. The fact that the climb to the top has no end is the problem. The game allows people who spend countless hours to gain huge advantage over other players. That's not skill. It's just trading your time for advantage.
There is no problem with there being "no end" to an MMO. Are you new to the genre?
Also, no, it's not. It's called effort.
You know, the thing the most dedicated players spend each day in game.
I find your total lack of respect towards them funny, because this game wouldn't exist without those people.
And do need a lot of skill to finish certain tasks in the game (which require time also, of which you have more if you use boosters).Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 6:00PM3 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭
there is no education.
It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.
Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.
How is this such a hard concept...
You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"
Might be a hard concept for you, because for most people in the real world time is money.
Just google "time is money" and you will see how that concept is in almost everyones head, so you are the exception here.
dont get me wrong, its neither bad nor good, everyone has to decide for himself.
but it is the concept that is used in the world, and as such it can quite easily apply to a game which is in this real world environment, where a company has to earn money.
If time is money, I must be spending it pretty well being part of a succesfull hedge fund
I don't really need you to try & educate me about money.
You can't have competitive games, where certain people have more advantages because they have more $$$. That does not work in real life either
And people defending this concept, people who need $$$ to become good in video games, repulse me tbh
time is money. thats all.
again, you seem to have the wrong idea of the real world.
which football team wins?
one that can afford the best pro players, because it has enough money or the team that has no money and has to play with the worst players available?
if you say, money doesnt influence the outcome or result of real life events, i dont know what to say.
surely nobody has to like how the real world works, but it works that way and it will happen in this game too.
dont want to be too offtopic, but if you are part of a hedge fund, you seem to like that concept. so no reason to complain here at all.
3 -
Ray22✭XP boosts can be a problem IF they stack, and there is no rational limit. What would a rational limit mean to me?
The subscribers. That's where I'd draw the line. 10%, no more, no less. It shouldn't even be sold in the shop, so that more people subscribe, that should be ZoS goal. I wouldn't see that much of a change then, since hardcore gamers do want the DLC's and are used to subscribing. If anything, it makes the game easier...good or bad, it is what it is.
Anything that is time saving is P2W, we should accept that, and a long conversation with frosth.darkomenb16_ESO already got me there. But what should be considered here is where to draw a reasonable line. Some time saving stuff shouldn't affect the game that much. Potions and normal stuff is not that big of a deal, and boosts if they work as said, neither.
ZoS must make the game and the sub attractive, not just more and more profitable. Now, what will happen, we'll see. But some of you should respect a little more others opinions. Lots of anger issues around here as of lately.
Also, the thing that bothers me the most and yet, is not being taken into account is the following:The game is not going P2W actually unless ZOS decide to put in the Crown store gear and/or weapons and/or skill lines that really aren't available playing the game.
Now those I'd say are the things no one would say would be cool. And one of those has already been announced WILL HAPPEN: Dark Brotherhood / Thieves Guild skill lines will be DLC only. We should be complaining about that, instead of going with endless threads and posts about what the future awaits.
Battleing against some of the changes is reasonable, but against the model, forget it, it's done. So lets get over denial already, and actually work as a community not to say what will or won't happen, but to say, from the actual list of things announced, what really is way over the line.
We should start there. And win one battle at a time. Cyrodill should have tought as already we ain't winning nothing if don't cooperate as a group. And we'll be more powerful for each little battle won.
This is the fight for the Elder Scrolls. Yeah...way too much caffeine.2 -
Abr4hn✭✭Wow, I like your stereotypes. Must be hard to cross a street in that black & white world.
So "Person B" is a more valued individual in game as well, because he spends time with his family & works?
How about a "Person C", who is rich and doesn't have to work. He spends all his time in game and all his $$$ in Cash Shop.
Is he also more valued than "Person A"?
What next, should Persons B & C become a better footballer, because he gives the coach $$$? Should they perhaps skip you in line in supermarkets & spit on you from balconies as well?
People like you make me sick.
Again, you are missing the part where character X is the same for all of them. If character X has no advantages, then it doesn't matter how they got there, each person spent something and got the exact same end results.
You might think time does not equal money, but this game will now allow you to trade time for money. *** and moan all you want. It's going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it.
Might as well give up trying to explain this to people that simply cannot or will not understand.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
― George Carlin2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
there is no education.
It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.
Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.
How is this such a hard concept...
You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"
Might be a hard concept for you, because for most people in the real world time is money.
Just google "time is money" and you will see how that concept is in almost everyones head, so you are the exception here.
dont get me wrong, its neither bad nor good, everyone has to decide for himself.
but it is the concept that is used in the world, and as such it can quite easily apply to a game which is in this real world environment, where a company has to earn money.
If time is money, I must be spending it pretty well being part of a succesfull hedge fund
I don't really need you to try & educate me about money.
You can't have competitive games, where certain people have more advantages because they have more $$$. That does not work in real life either
And people defending this concept, people who need $$$ to become good in video games, repulse me tbh
time is money. thats all.
again, you seem to have the wrong idea of the real world.
which football team wins?
one that can afford the best pro players, because it has enough money or the team that has no money and has to play with the worst players available?
if you say, money doesnt influence the outcome or result of real life events, i dont know what to say.
surely nobody has to like how the real world works, but it works that way and it will happen in this game too.
dont want to be too offtopic, but if you are part of a hedge fund, you seem to like that concept. so no reason to complain here at all.
I'm not talking about teams, I'm talking about the player (just like in video games). You don't pay to get to be part of that team, you just have to be good enough. In fact they pay you, if you are.
Money doesn't make that individual player better. Being good & training a lot does it.
Off-Topic: Did you know that in the best WoW guilds (no, they don't pay to be good), people earn 60k/year from sponsorship deals? That's because they actually work hard, not because they spend $$$ in Cash Shop.
And yes, while I probably could "buy effort" like other people & be financially able to do so, I refuse to partake in that kind of a scam, simply from ethical viewpoint. I want to see video games become more gamer friendly, developed with a good game in mind (not $$$).
I believe things should be earned, and competitive environments kept clean of the influence of money.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 6:16PM4 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »Humanistic wrote: »The answer is yes, the game is pay to win - but that is overshadowed by all the cosmetic items you will be able to buy. If you couldn't buy potions or soul gems on the fly from the in-game store, then you would essentially be surviving less, and having to take time from your character progression to go back to town and re-stock (this is how things work right now). But when you don't have to do that, then your progression can never stop, because you simply never die with your stock of pots - and should that happen, you can just buy a soul gem (from the in-game store) and use that while out questing or delving. It takes less time to not ever have to go back to town to restock, it is a convenience thing, yes - but it is also a very small form of pay to win.
That doesn't affect your enjoyment of the game, and your speaking of PvE. There is no winning in PvE.
If there is no winning in PvE, why have levels and stats and progression? You can't define winning in PvE in PvP terms like oh I killed another player I win. PvE has it's own goals and challenges that are considered winning. In terms of players relatively winning over other players, let's throw out this example, a raid leader for endgame raid has one open spot, player A says pick me I have 90 CP and mediocre stats, player B says I have 1400 CP and with that have awesome stats. Given they have equal skills, which one do you think the raid leader will invite?
Maybe think of "win" in PvE progression like a poker game. "Winning" in poker is not "take everyone else's chips until they have none" (that might be considered a BIG win sure) it's "leave the game with more chips than when I started". In between you can say little wins, good wins, big wins, all wins.
Edited by Sylvyr on January 25, 2015 6:36PMBadge: Wall-of-Text GRANDMASTER
PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.
Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?
Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.
P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.
They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.
People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.
Example:
10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X
Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.
So someone with a better job should be better & have advantages in game as well?
Essentially, you're defending P2W.
I don't give a crap what your job is, how many kids you have to feed or how much money you have, that should never provide an advantage in a competitive environment.
That's not how it works in real life either.
You don't go into a football field, flaunt your money around & become a good player.
In fact, it's the other way around usually.
You missed the part where X is the same for both players. There is no advantage.
It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.
Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.
How is this such a hard concept...
You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"
It's not a hard concept. You just don't get it.
Person A: Has no job, pays no money, and spend all his time freeloading on his mothers couch playing ESO. He racks up massive amounts of XP because he has so much free time.
Person B: Like to play but has to work and spend time with his family. He has less time to play and would like to trade some of his time from work with time in the game. This trade will use a currency called US Dollars.
Either way, Both person A and B end us with character X. This is the exact same character and has no advantages. If you can't understand this, there's no point in arguing. You just don't get it. Not everyone is good with logic so whatever.
Wow, I like your stereotypes. Must be hard to cross a street in that black & white world.
So "Person B" is a more valued individual in game as well, because he spends time with his family & works?
How about a "Person C", who is rich and doesn't have to work. He spends all his time in game and all his $$$ in Cash Shop.
Is he also more valued than "Person A"?
What next, should Persons B & C become a better footballer, because he gives the coach $$$? Should they perhaps skip you in line in supermarkets & spit on you from balconies as well?
People like you make me sick.
Again, you are missing the part where character X is the same for all of them. If character X has no advantages, then it doesn't matter how they got there, each person spent something and got the exact same end results.
You might think time does not equal money, but this game will now allow you to trade time for money. *** and moan all you want. It's going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it.
You trade grinding time for money, that is exactly what is wrong with these scams.
Person A grinds 100 hours (be it money, XP, whatever) to achieve objective X
Person B grinds 110 hours (be it money, XP, whatever) to achieve objective X
Person A not only achieves the objective, but also has 10 hours to spend working on objective Y.
Person A is thus more efficient & better than you in game.
Your whole twisted logic would make sense if there was only "character X", if this was a single player game you can finish.
It's not, it's a MMO where there is more objectives than your "character X", and most people playing never even achieve all these objectives.
What next, do you want full raid gear because you have $$$?
Screw all those players working hard for it & actually earning it, right?
You're pointing at a different problem with the game. The fact that the climb to the top has no end is the problem. The game allows people who spend countless hours to gain huge advantage over other players. That's not skill. It's just trading your time for advantage.
There is no problem with there being "no end" to an MMO. Are you new to the genre?
Also, no, it's not. It's called effort.
You know, the thing the most dedicated players spend each day in game.
I find your total lack of respect towards them funny, because this game wouldn't exist without those people.
And do need a lot of skill to finish certain tasks in the game (which require time also, of which you have more if you use boosters).
You mean like the effort I put into making money at work while someone else spends their time making no money but racking up XP? Apparently, you believe that time equals skill, and that a good player is defined by the time he spent playing. You are wrong, and it doesn't matter what every MMO has done since they started. They sell fake skill for time and then add in fake skill for money. In the end, it's all just fake skill. So keep crying about your fake skills. No one cares.Edited by SFBryan18 on January 25, 2015 6:29PM3 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭
lets talk about the player for a moment. just ignore the huge amount of money that is invested into them over the years, so they can become what they are.
there is no education.
It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.
Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.
How is this such a hard concept...
You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"
Might be a hard concept for you, because for most people in the real world time is money.
Just google "time is money" and you will see how that concept is in almost everyones head, so you are the exception here.
dont get me wrong, its neither bad nor good, everyone has to decide for himself.
but it is the concept that is used in the world, and as such it can quite easily apply to a game which is in this real world environment, where a company has to earn money.
If time is money, I must be spending it pretty well being part of a succesfull hedge fund
I don't really need you to try & educate me about money.
You can't have competitive games, where certain people have more advantages because they have more $$$. That does not work in real life either
And people defending this concept, people who need $$$ to become good in video games, repulse me tbh
time is money. thats all.
again, you seem to have the wrong idea of the real world.
which football team wins?
one that can afford the best pro players, because it has enough money or the team that has no money and has to play with the worst players available?
if you say, money doesnt influence the outcome or result of real life events, i dont know what to say.
surely nobody has to like how the real world works, but it works that way and it will happen in this game too.
dont want to be too offtopic, but if you are part of a hedge fund, you seem to like that concept. so no reason to complain here at all.
I'm not talking about teams, I'm talking about the player (just like in video games). You don't pay to get to be part of that team, you just have to be good enough. In fact they pay you, if you are.
Money doesn't make that individual player better. Being good & training a lot does it.
Off-Topic: Did you know that in the best WoW guilds (no, they don't pay to be good), people earn 60k/year from sponsorship deals? That's because they actually work hard, not because they spend $$$ in Cash Shop.
And yes, while I probably could "buy effort" like other people & be financially able to do so, I refuse to partake in that kind of a scam, simply from ethical viewpoint. I want to see video games become more gamer friendly, developed with a good game in mind (not $$$).
I believe things should be earned, and competitive environments kept clean of the influence of money.
instead, an easy example.
newborn A and newborn B, both talented.
newborn A grows up in an environment where his parents can afford to buy him food, let him go to school, and all that other stuff thats needed to grow up and become a pro.
newborn B doesnt grow up, because his parents can not afford to buy him food.
a bit drastic, but good enough for a basic example.
money dictates a big part of life.
nobody says you have to take part in the way ESO is heading, and you have the right to complain all you want, but it will not change the course of the game or the facts that are behind it.3 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No one cares.
Oh really? Have you been reading the forums lately?
A lot of people care. I agree with almost everything @DDuke is saying.
I've seen you say this alot 'Nobody cares". Yet you have nothing to back that up. You seem to think that everyone here agrees with you. I hate to break this to ya @SFBryan18, but the vast majority of the people reading this forum disagree with you on a regular basis. Not sure if you have ever looked at your profile. Maybe you should.
You have your opinions and you are entitled to those opinions, but please stop coming here acting like you represent some kind of majority when in fact it's quite the opposite.
Edited by Alphashado on January 25, 2015 6:40PM1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alphashado wrote: »No one cares.
Oh really? Have you been reading the forums lately?
A lot of people care. I agree with almost everything @DDuke is saying.
I've seen you say that alot 'Nobody cares". Yet you have nothing to back that up. You seem to think that everyone here agrees with you. I hate to break this to ya @SFBryan, but the vast majority of the people reading this forum disagree with you on a regular basis. Not sure if you have ever looked at your profile. Maybe you should.
You have your opinions and you are entitled to those opinions, but please stop coming here acting like you represent some kind of majority when in fact it's quite the opposite.
No one important, but if you care so much about another member crying, then maybe you two can hook up and make each other feel better.
BTW, please link one other post where I said no one cares. Just one.Edited by SFBryan18 on January 25, 2015 6:43PM2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭money dictates a big part of life.
Which is why we try to keep it out of games everywhere, to ensure everyone's playing by the same rules. Even children understand that the rules of a game apply to every player, and that special rulesets for specific players are unfair.
Nobody cares what you do outside of the game, if you do not have enough time to level or practice. The game does not bend for you. Why is this even debatable to some people?Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.2 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alphashado wrote: »No one cares.
Oh really? Have you been reading the forums lately?
A lot of people care. I agree with almost everything @DDuke is saying.
I've seen you say that alot 'Nobody cares". Yet you have nothing to back that up. You seem to think that everyone here agrees with you. I hate to break this to ya @SFBryan, but the vast majority of the people reading this forum disagree with you on a regular basis. Not sure if you have ever looked at your profile. Maybe you should.
You have your opinions and you are entitled to those opinions, but please stop coming here acting like you represent some kind of majority when in fact it's quite the opposite.
No one important, but if you care so much about another member crying, then maybe you two can hook up and make each other feel better.
BTW, please link one other post where I said no one cares. Just one.
EDIT: Removed because it's not worth my time. The ignore button is easier.
2 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭
calm down, guys.Alphashado wrote: »No one cares.
Oh really? Have you been reading the forums lately?
A lot of people care. I agree with almost everything @DDuke is saying.
I've seen you say that alot 'Nobody cares". Yet you have nothing to back that up. You seem to think that everyone here agrees with you. I hate to break this to ya @SFBryan, but the vast majority of the people reading this forum disagree with you on a regular basis. Not sure if you have ever looked at your profile. Maybe you should.
You have your opinions and you are entitled to those opinions, but please stop coming here acting like you represent some kind of majority when in fact it's quite the opposite.
No one important, but if you care so much about another member crying, then maybe you two can hook up and make each other feel better.
there are some dedicated players that care, which use the forum frequently.
most of the eso players dont care at all for the forum, and id bet after its going b2p, there will be more players in the game than before. either because they accepted the change, were happy with it or even only had interested in it, because its b2p in the first place.
the few players discussing here have no say whatsoever.
no personal opinion here is right or wrong.
it was the right decision for ZOS as a business.
some like it, some dont.
2 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alphashado wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »No one cares.
Oh really? Have you been reading the forums lately?
A lot of people care. I agree with almost everything @DDuke is saying.
I've seen you say that alot 'Nobody cares". Yet you have nothing to back that up. You seem to think that everyone here agrees with you. I hate to break this to ya @SFBryan, but the vast majority of the people reading this forum disagree with you on a regular basis. Not sure if you have ever looked at your profile. Maybe you should.
You have your opinions and you are entitled to those opinions, but please stop coming here acting like you represent some kind of majority when in fact it's quite the opposite.
No one important, but if you care so much about another member crying, then maybe you two can hook up and make each other feel better.
BTW, please link one other post where I said no one cares. Just one.
EDIT: Removed because it's not worth my time. The ignore button is easier.
Exactly.2 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭money dictates a big part of life.
Which is why we try to keep it out of games everywhere, to ensure everyone's playing by the same rules. Even children understand that the rules of a game apply to every player, and that special rulesets for specific players are unfair.
Nobody cares what you do outside of the game, if you do not have enough time to level or practice. The game does not bend for you. Why is this even debatable to some people?
because this game is owned by someone that has to / want to make money.
its not a fairy tale.
its about money, thats not debatable at all.
dont get me wrong, everyone can complain as much as he/she likes, but as long as this system works for ZOS, they dont care.
we will see if they earn enough money this way or not.Edited by Dragath on January 25, 2015 6:56PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
lets talk about the player for a moment. just ignore the huge amount of money that is invested into them over the years, so they can become what they are.
there is no education.
It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.
Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.
How is this such a hard concept...
You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"
Might be a hard concept for you, because for most people in the real world time is money.
Just google "time is money" and you will see how that concept is in almost everyones head, so you are the exception here.
dont get me wrong, its neither bad nor good, everyone has to decide for himself.
but it is the concept that is used in the world, and as such it can quite easily apply to a game which is in this real world environment, where a company has to earn money.
If time is money, I must be spending it pretty well being part of a succesfull hedge fund
I don't really need you to try & educate me about money.
You can't have competitive games, where certain people have more advantages because they have more $$$. That does not work in real life either
And people defending this concept, people who need $$$ to become good in video games, repulse me tbh
time is money. thats all.
again, you seem to have the wrong idea of the real world.
which football team wins?
one that can afford the best pro players, because it has enough money or the team that has no money and has to play with the worst players available?
if you say, money doesnt influence the outcome or result of real life events, i dont know what to say.
surely nobody has to like how the real world works, but it works that way and it will happen in this game too.
dont want to be too offtopic, but if you are part of a hedge fund, you seem to like that concept. so no reason to complain here at all.
I'm not talking about teams, I'm talking about the player (just like in video games). You don't pay to get to be part of that team, you just have to be good enough. In fact they pay you, if you are.
Money doesn't make that individual player better. Being good & training a lot does it.
Off-Topic: Did you know that in the best WoW guilds (no, they don't pay to be good), people earn 60k/year from sponsorship deals? That's because they actually work hard, not because they spend $$$ in Cash Shop.
And yes, while I probably could "buy effort" like other people & be financially able to do so, I refuse to partake in that kind of a scam, simply from ethical viewpoint. I want to see video games become more gamer friendly, developed with a good game in mind (not $$$).
I believe things should be earned, and competitive environments kept clean of the influence of money.
instead, an easy example.
newborn A and newborn B, both talented.
newborn A grows up in an environment where his parents can afford to buy him food, let him go to school, and all that other stuff thats needed to grow up and become a pro.
newborn B doesnt grow up, because his parents can not afford to buy him food.
a bit drastic, but good enough for a basic example.
money dictates a big part of life.
nobody says you have to take part in the way ESO is heading, and you have the right to complain all you want, but it will not change the course of the game or the facts that are behind it.
I don't really see the point of your analogy, and how it proves that people pay to be good.
School & "other stuff" has nothing to do with how good this certain person is at a certain task, unless it requires a certain education (which you can achieve without school).
You are describing a basic function such as eating as a basis in your argument. People don't eat food to get better, they eat food to live (and you can get it for free if you're that desperate).
We don't play video games or football to live, we play them either for entertainment or for competition.
In the end, what we do affects who we are. Not how much money we have.
And this is how it should be in video games as well.
Feel free to argue.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 6:55PM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭money dictates a big part of life.
Which is why we try to keep it out of games everywhere, to ensure everyone's playing by the same rules. Even children understand that the rules of a game apply to every player, and that special rulesets for specific players are unfair.
Nobody cares what you do outside of the game, if you do not have enough time to level or practice. The game does not bend for you. Why is this even debatable to some people?
because this game is owned by someone that has to / want to make money.
its not a fairy tale.
its about money, thats not debatable at all.
dont get me wrong, everyone can complain as much as he/she likes, but as long as this system works for ZOS, they dont care.
we will see if they earn enough money this way or not.
On that we can agree, it's all about money to ZOS, and not so much about having a quality game or a fair environment.
Funny, I thought this was the exact reason we're arguing.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 6:58PM2 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭What else could they offer to make subscribing worth the cost? it doesn't seem to me like it will be if you are above the cap unless the crowns are worth a lot. It is an advantage but if subscribing didn't have one why would you. They made the subscription offer a boost instead of allow access to the game.
I think the real issue will not be the small boost it offers, but the quality and frequency of DLC. I don't think they will be able to release quality content at a pace that will make the loss of the subscription model worthwhile. Then they may try to make ends meet with the cash shop.
I hope I am wrong. I am surprised about this change, I thought they would have at least waited until console release. I wanted to play this on ps4, but they kept delaying it.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What else could they offer to make subscribing worth the cost? it doesn't seem to me like it will be if you are above the cap unless the crowns are worth a lot. It is an advantage but if subscribing didn't have one why would you. They made the subscription offer a boost instead of allow access to the game.
I think the real issue will not be the small boost it offers, but the quality and frequency of DLC. I don't think they will be able to release quality content at a pace that will make the loss of the subscription model worthwhile. Then they may try to make ends meet with the cash shop.
I hope I am wrong. I am surprised about this change, I thought they would have at least waited until console release. I wanted to play this on ps4, but they kept delaying it.
I believe I made a good proposition here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/147434/zos-a-compromise-for-past-future-players#latest
But since we're apparently not getting content as often as before anymore, it might need some reworking.4 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭money dictates a big part of life.
Which is why we try to keep it out of games everywhere, to ensure everyone's playing by the same rules. Even children understand that the rules of a game apply to every player, and that special rulesets for specific players are unfair.
Nobody cares what you do outside of the game, if you do not have enough time to level or practice. The game does not bend for you. Why is this even debatable to some people?
because this game is owned by someone that has to / want to make money.
its not a fairy tale.
its about money, thats not debatable at all.
dont get me wrong, everyone can complain as much as he/she likes, but as long as this system works for ZOS, they dont care.
we will see if they earn enough money this way or not.
On that we can agree, it's all about money to ZOS, and not so much about having a quality game or a fair environment.
Funny, I thought this was the exact reason we're arguing.
i am not arguing at all.
i am fine with both models.
just want to clarify that it will be this way, and there is no way to change that decision and because i like to read opinions of other players.
my point above was quite easy.
if you dont have money to develop yourself, you will not be able to get good in anything. strip all money, and things you can buy from money, from a pro and see how good he is after three month, if he did survive that time at all.
doesnt matter if you use money on entertaining or something else, its just the fact that its important for everything.
It is important for the Investors of Zenimax Media, which makes it important for Zenimax Media, which does make it important for ZOS. (blabla)
No surprise there.What else could they offer to make subscribing worth the cost? it doesn't seem to me like it will be if you are above the cap unless the crowns are worth a lot. It is an advantage but if subscribing didn't have one why would you. They made the subscription offer a boost instead of allow access to the game.
I think the real issue will not be the small boost it offers, but the quality and frequency of DLC. I don't think they will be able to release quality content at a pace that will make the loss of the subscription model worthwhile. Then they may try to make ends meet with the cash shop.
I hope I am wrong. I am surprised about this change, I thought they would have at least waited until console release. I wanted to play this on ps4, but they kept delaying it.
No, you are not wrong.
Content will slow down, and the game as is, is just not good enough to keep players interested. All they can do, is trying to earn as much money as possible through the Shop. Boosts/DLCs and such.
Elder Scrolls Online will earn them money through console sales and through the shop if they implement it correct, but it will never become the awesome game we/they wanted it to be.Edited by Dragath on January 25, 2015 7:23PM2 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭The argument over whether XP boost (and being able to get champ points faster) is P2W is just kind of wierd. I mean, if two players, one with boost and one without, both arrive at max CP points, they would be equal (in that one regard). One player can arrive there faster with the boost. If both players progress in parallel, one will spend more time progressing, one will be spending less + money.
It seems like the main point of contention is, is it fair? To some degree it is. I mean, if you and I both get in separate taxis to take us to a party, and I "tip" my taxi driver 20 bucks to drive fast and you don't. Well I'm going to get to the party earlier than you and enjoy more time there. Is it fair? I think so, I spent 20 and you didn't have to, you could use the 20 bucks that you didn't spend to whip your driver at the party for more drinks or whatever.
In ESO, to some degree it would seem that's it's a choice to throw money on a speed boost to get "there" faster. In a roundabout way it P2W in that it's paying to get to a "winning" position faster.
Is it a huge deal? Very subjective but some of the arguments are convincing me that, no as it stands, not so much, mainly because 1) it's a choice that the player is spending money on this and those that don't can choose to do the same or spend that money on something else that they want to for whatever reasons 2) the XP boost advantage is not significant enough (hopefully) to divide the player population into 2 classes of haves and have-nots.
What seems to be a significant point of concern is that this opens up the door for "scam" like conditions. E.g., making the game harder or more of a grind which will push or create a demand for players to spend $ for boosts (one could argue that to get to CP max is a looooong grind and even 10% is very significant in that goal). In terms of items, a scam (to me) would be items that you'd "need" because by design that need is created - like buying keys to boxes you find in game and that is just (to me) clearly fubar.
Another worry is about items competing with in game created/sold items in some way or another but meh trying to stay on topic.
Badge: Wall-of-Text GRANDMASTER
PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"0 -
Flynch✭✭✭✭Surely just having an Imperial horse from Level 1 would be seen as P2W if we're to class accelerated time as some sort of tangible advantage.2 -
darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »I don't see how my comment gave you "a good laugh." Care to explain to me how you win at ESO's, or any MMO's for that matter, PvE? I'd really like to know, because I've been playing Star Trek Online for going on 5 years now, and still haven't "won" it.
I laughed because you apparently make a distinction between PvE and PvP in this regard. There is no more winning in PvP than in PvE. Of course, depending on your definition of winning in MMOs, there is either no winning at all or every encounter can be won. But even then, there's no difference between PvP and PvE.
Or do have you won STO's PvP yet?
Don't PvP in STO. There's a definite start and finish to PvP in ESO. The campaign begins then ends and a faction has won, then it all starts over, it's a competition. PvE is always evolving, there's always something to do, the story never ends, that is, until the servers shut down, it's a personal experience, there's no race.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The argument over whether XP boost (and being able to get champ points faster) is P2W is just kind of wierd. I mean, if two players, one with boost and one without, both arrive at max CP points, they would be equal (in that one regard). One player can arrive there faster with the boost. If both players progress in parallel, one will spend more time progressing, one will be spending less + money.
It seems like the main point of contention is, is it fair? To some degree it is. I mean, if you and I both get in separate taxis to take us to a party, and I "tip" my taxi driver 20 bucks to drive fast and you don't. Well I'm going to get to the party earlier than you and enjoy more time there. Is it fair? I think so, I spent 20 and you didn't have to, you could use the 20 bucks that you didn't spend to whip your driver at the party for more drinks or whatever.
Except that driving to a party isn't a competitive environment, games are.
And while you might argue that a person leveling 10% faster (or getting CP 10% faster) isn't P2W because they arrive at the same location, you're forgetting that the other person has 10% more time to do other stuff that allows him to win more. Thus pay to win, since it indirectly affects the competitive environment, like anything that provides an advantage.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 8:37PM2