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If it shortcuts some time, it can get considered. If it makes you look cool, it will get considered!
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Sindala✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Having it be considered is a long way from having it in the store. Although they very clearly are including an XP boost as part of the ESO Plus membership.
But they flat-out said that they won't put actual gear on the store. So please stop with the sky falling and all that.
They "Flat out" said the game would never go F2P........Being First is not the prize, it just mean's everyone can stab you in the back.8 -
Sindala✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Having it be considered is a long way from having it in the store. Although they very clearly are including an XP boost as part of the ESO Plus membership.
But they flat-out said that they won't put actual gear on the store. So please stop with the sky falling and all that.
@nerevarine1138: could you please point out for everyone where you read/heard that? I cannot find it anywhere. They don't seem to ever use the word "gear" in their answers, so feel free to enlighten me.
Straight from the horse's mouth (if Matt Firor were a horse):
"We have no plans to sell armor or armor pieces in the Crown Store, just costumes that look like them."
You believe anything at all they still have to say?
I feel sorry for you.
Yes, if a company EVER changes it's plans, it is completely untrustworthy for the rest of human existence.
/rollseyes
If a company ever uses subscriber money to...
Stop right there. What a company uses THEIR money for is none of your business. It is not subscriber money. It stopped being subscriber money the second the deal - "we allow you into our game, you give us money" - was done.
Your only right regarding to what they use the money for is to stop giving them any more if you are unhappy about the way they spent it. That is all.
You don't care at all what happens with the money you spend, is that what I should gather from your post?
If so, then I feel sorry for you too.
No, they just understand what their money was spent for.
Your subscription fees were for access to the game for the months you bought. You received that access. How the company uses their various sources of funding is not your concern unless you're an investor.
And do you think these companies would exist without our money?
We (the subscribers) funded their existence & kept them afloat. We had certain expectations for the game.
How much did the console audience contribute to the game's existence?
Mostly just by negative reviews & "ESO sux" comments.
In fact, Zenimax's complete disregard & disrespect of their paying customers and their wishes is a borderline scam.
What happened to "customer is always right". What happened to ethics & morals?
Maybe none of this was the case in the first place.
Zenimax Media Inc, welcome to my list of garbage:
EA
Ubisoft
Activision
Trion
Zenimax Media Inc
Again, you are fundamentally misunderstanding your role. You are a customer, not an investor. You have absolutely no financial stake in this business, regardless of the made-up stakes you've given yourself.
And you are misunderstanding your basic human rights. You are entitled to get angry & defend yourself, if you're being scammed & treated like a ***.
You do have financial stake in the business. The business wouldn't exist without us, subscribers (to whom they show zero respect or appreciation). Try to get that through your skull.nerevarine1138 wrote: »You have the same rights as a customer that you've always had: the right to pay for a product or service that you want. Your subscription was you doing that. If you don't want this product anymore, quit paying for it (or don't, because you'll still be able to play after the transition). Your subscription didn't cover anything besides the months you paid for, and you received those in full.
Terms of the service: we pay, they create content, because that is how subscription MMOs work. You must be new to them.
How they do not work: we pay, they create DLCs & Cash Shops for entirely different audience & throw us the scraps and then tell us to go F ourselves.nerevarine1138 wrote: »And finally, the customer is not always right. That's a terrible philosophy that has bred a small but loud group of entitled consumers who feel that a company's job is to take care of their every whim, no matter how irrational it may be. In these situations, the customer is often wrong, and companies that acknowledge that to themselves and let said customer go end up doing better in the long run.
I love how you're coming up with your own definitions
Everyone that doesn't get scammed and then thank a company for it, is part of "a small group entitled consumers"? Grow a spine please. People like you are the exact reason for everything that is *** in this industry.
Customer & company relationship is based on trust. If you can't trust the company, then you either:- sue it, which we can't do, due to ToS.
or - just forget it & avoid making the same mistake twice (and make sure to warn other people of it).
Dear Stendarr, did I ever say you didn't have the right to be angry? I happen to think you're overreacting, but get as angry as you want.
But you do not have a financial stake in this company. What was your investment? What were your promised returns? How have those been affected?
You paid for a subscription for [X] months. You received access to the game for [X] months. That is not a financial stake in this company. That's you exchanging money for services rendered. As a consumer, the only right you have in this case is to not continue to pay money when the system changes. That's it.
Time for education it seems.Consumer Rights
1962 U.S. President John F. Kennedy established four basic consumer rights:
1. The right to safety.
2. The right to choose.
3. The right to be heard.
4. The right to be informed.
In 1970, U.S. President Gerald Ford added: 5. The right to consumer education.
In time, the following rights were added: 6. The right to consumer redress.
7. The right to a healthy environment.
8. The right to basic needs.
In 1984 the INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF CONSUMERS UNIONS, now known as CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL, formally adopted this list of eight rights as their platform.
The Consumers Council of Canada has added: 9. The right to privacy.
This results in what we call the Eight Plus One.
We (PC players, the dedicated player base) have the right to be heard.
We have the right to be informed how our money is spent (for example, if it's being spent on DLCs & Cash Shop)
We have the right to redress.
We have the right for a healthy environment.
You have the right to quit. That is your only right in an online world, nobody is holding a gun against your head and forcing you to play.Being First is not the prize, it just mean's everyone can stab you in the back.3 - sue it, which we can't do, due to ToS.
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Lol, all the hopefuls and defendants are like cattle being herded to the slaughter house. Time to get paid for all that meat.2 -
nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Having it be considered is a long way from having it in the store. Although they very clearly are including an XP boost as part of the ESO Plus membership.
But they flat-out said that they won't put actual gear on the store. So please stop with the sky falling and all that.
@nerevarine1138: could you please point out for everyone where you read/heard that? I cannot find it anywhere. They don't seem to ever use the word "gear" in their answers, so feel free to enlighten me.
Straight from the horse's mouth (if Matt Firor were a horse):
"We have no plans to sell armor or armor pieces in the Crown Store, just costumes that look like them."
"No Plans" Untill we need more Funds
4 -
Ysne58✭✭✭✭✭ZOS needs to do something about it's lost credibility which in turn has decreased it's good will. They lied, more than once.4 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭there will be a lot of stuff called "convenience" down the road.
good news is, if you dont like the way the game is going and you realize that complaining wont change the fact that ZOS needs to make money, you can leave whenever you want.
i am sure a few of you have had this experience in the past.
its harsh, but its reality.2 -
OMFG, some of you are unbelivable.
You and me paid for a service: such service was ESO. We used that service and in return we paid ZOS. ZOS owes us nothing, they delivered what we paid for.
We were not funding them. We were not paying for the promise of a brighter future. If you think you are paying a company for the unspoken agreement that its product will be better in the future, and that the company owes you that, you are delusional. Your problems are bigger than FtP vs PtP.
Now they changed their plan: have they lied to us? I think so.
But it is in their right to do whatever they want with THEIR product. You don't like it anymore? *Snip*
In fact, you don't sue McDonald because they changed the (insert-product-name-here)'s recipe. You just go to another resturant.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]Edited by ZOS_CatK on January 25, 2015 5:21PM6 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hello exp boosters/trials set/max level and etc. in Crown store?It's all shortucts some time.
You may or may not get EXP Boosters, they will not sell items that max out your level (that would kill the game), and I'm not sure what you mean by "Trials set"People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule1 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Some of you really need to go back to school (or study harder). But because I'm in a kind mood, let me explain the difference between an investor and a consumer and their rights:
Investor
And investor invests money in a company through buying stocks or through direct investment, expecting a return of some sort. I know that sounds simple, but many people on this thread fail to grasp that.
So, for example, if I buy stock in Ford, I'm an investor in Ford. Or if I provide money to a start-up company, I'm an investor. I have entered in to an arrangement where I hope to earn money, but I accept the risk of losing my entire principal.
Being an investor entitles me to have a say in what the company does from a business standpoint. If I hold stock, I can attend and vote at shareholders' meetings. If I hold a large amount of stock (or if I'm investing money directly in a company), I likely have a place on a company board that gives me direct input.
Consumer
A consumer buys products and/or services from a company, expecting no financial returns. They exchange money for goods or services, and they receive said goods or services.
For example, if I buy a truck from Ford, I'm a consumer of Ford's. I can have opinions about the way they run their business, but I have absolutely no financial stake in how they run their company. If Ford lays off half their workers and decides to make tortillas instead of cars, I don't get to return my truck.
If something is wrong with my truck (within the warranty period), I have the right to restitution from the company, in the form of a replacement or a refund. If I am dissatisfied in some other way, I have the right to speak out about it, but I don't get to claim money from Ford because of my own dissatisfaction.
The ESO Community
Again, this all seems like it should be self-explanatory, but apparently a few of you need a refresher course in what your role in this process is. We're consumers, not investors. We have absolutely no say in how ZO does business. We're entitled to hold an opinion, but that's it.
When we paid for our subscription time, we received it. You are not entitled to further restitution, because you got exactly what you paid for.----
Murray?10 -
stevepdodson_ESO888✭✭✭✭✭
✭While they promise will not be formalized in the license agreement ,promises just promises and considering how many false promises we have seen and heard, there is no trust to ZOS.
A "promise" is a verbal agreement and is legal in a court of law.
Now there's something to think about.2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »While they promise will not be formalized in the license agreement ,promises just promises and considering how many false promises we have seen and heard, there is no trust to ZOS.
A "promise" is a verbal agreement and is legal in a court of law.
Now there's something to think about.
Was there a verbal agreement with the community about something? I missed that.----
Murray?4 -
Razzak✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Some of you really need to go back to school (or study harder). But because I'm in a kind mood, let me explain the difference between an investor and a consumer and their rights:
Investor
And investor invests money in a company through buying stocks or through direct investment, expecting a return of some sort. I know that sounds simple, but many people on this thread fail to grasp that.
So, for example, if I buy stock in Ford, I'm an investor in Ford. Or if I provide money to a start-up company, I'm an investor. I have entered in to an arrangement where I hope to earn money, but I accept the risk of losing my entire principal.
Being an investor entitles me to have a say in what the company does from a business standpoint. If I hold stock, I can attend and vote at shareholders' meetings. If I hold a large amount of stock (or if I'm investing money directly in a company), I likely have a place on a company board that gives me direct input.
Consumer
A consumer buys products and/or services from a company, expecting no financial returns. They exchange money for goods or services, and they receive said goods or services.
For example, if I buy a truck from Ford, I'm a consumer of Ford's. I can have opinions about the way they run their business, but I have absolutely no financial stake in how they run their company. If Ford lays off half their workers and decides to make tortillas instead of cars, I don't get to return my truck.
If something is wrong with my truck (within the warranty period), I have the right to restitution from the company, in the form of a replacement or a refund. If I am dissatisfied in some other way, I have the right to speak out about it, but I don't get to claim money from Ford because of my own dissatisfaction.
The ESO Community
Again, this all seems like it should be self-explanatory, but apparently a few of you need a refresher course in what your role in this process is. We're consumers, not investors. We have absolutely no say in how ZO does business. We're entitled to hold an opinion, but that's it.
When we paid for our subscription time, we received it. You are not entitled to further restitution, because you got exactly what you paid for.
It's nice to see there are still people that are able to turn the other cheek no matter what is being done to them. You probably don't even need a lubrication when you are being worked on.7 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Some of you really need to go back to school (or study harder). But because I'm in a kind mood, let me explain the difference between an investor and a consumer and their rights:
Investor
And investor invests money in a company through buying stocks or through direct investment, expecting a return of some sort. I know that sounds simple, but many people on this thread fail to grasp that.
So, for example, if I buy stock in Ford, I'm an investor in Ford. Or if I provide money to a start-up company, I'm an investor. I have entered in to an arrangement where I hope to earn money, but I accept the risk of losing my entire principal.
Being an investor entitles me to have a say in what the company does from a business standpoint. If I hold stock, I can attend and vote at shareholders' meetings. If I hold a large amount of stock (or if I'm investing money directly in a company), I likely have a place on a company board that gives me direct input.
Consumer
A consumer buys products and/or services from a company, expecting no financial returns. They exchange money for goods or services, and they receive said goods or services.
For example, if I buy a truck from Ford, I'm a consumer of Ford's. I can have opinions about the way they run their business, but I have absolutely no financial stake in how they run their company. If Ford lays off half their workers and decides to make tortillas instead of cars, I don't get to return my truck.
If something is wrong with my truck (within the warranty period), I have the right to restitution from the company, in the form of a replacement or a refund. If I am dissatisfied in some other way, I have the right to speak out about it, but I don't get to claim money from Ford because of my own dissatisfaction.
The ESO Community
Again, this all seems like it should be self-explanatory, but apparently a few of you need a refresher course in what your role in this process is. We're consumers, not investors. We have absolutely no say in how ZO does business. We're entitled to hold an opinion, but that's it.
When we paid for our subscription time, we received it. You are not entitled to further restitution, because you got exactly what you paid for.
It's nice to see there are still people that are able to turn the other cheek no matter what is being done to them. You probably don't even need a lubrication when you are being worked on.
It's nice to see that people are incapable of understanding that having their feelings hurt doesn't mean they are entitled to compensation.
You're not an investor, no matter how much you may feel like your subscription fee makes you one. I'm sorry that you were laboring under that misapprehension, but I'm sure things will work out for you.----
Murray?7 -
Morshire✭✭✭✭e.chiesa73b16_ESO wrote: »OMFG, some of you are unbelivable.
Now they changed their plan: have they lied to us? I think so.
But it is in their right to do whatever they want with THEIR product. You don't like it anymore? GTFO!
Ahh, and the smell of rotting flesh permeates throughout the forum. As a new player, I would feel so welcome and utterly wet myself with anticipation at how warm and welcoming everyone is. I just better remember my place, or I may just have to GTFO.Edited by Morshire on January 24, 2015 5:03PMFollow me if I advance, Kill me if I retreat, Avenge me if I die.
When this immediate evil power has been defeated, we shall not yet have won the long battle with the elemental barbarities. Another evil, it may be an invisible adversary, will attempt, again, and yet again, to destroy our frail civilization. Is it true, I wonder, that the only way to escape a war is to be in it?
If I die, you are forgiven, If I live, I will kill you.4 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Some of you really need to go back to school (or study harder). But because I'm in a kind mood, let me explain the difference between an investor and a consumer and their rights:
Investor
And investor invests money in a company through buying stocks or through direct investment, expecting a return of some sort. I know that sounds simple, but many people on this thread fail to grasp that.
So, for example, if I buy stock in Ford, I'm an investor in Ford. Or if I provide money to a start-up company, I'm an investor. I have entered in to an arrangement where I hope to earn money, but I accept the risk of losing my entire principal.
Being an investor entitles me to have a say in what the company does from a business standpoint. If I hold stock, I can attend and vote at shareholders' meetings. If I hold a large amount of stock (or if I'm investing money directly in a company), I likely have a place on a company board that gives me direct input.
Consumer
A consumer buys products and/or services from a company, expecting no financial returns. They exchange money for goods or services, and they receive said goods or services.
For example, if I buy a truck from Ford, I'm a consumer of Ford's. I can have opinions about the way they run their business, but I have absolutely no financial stake in how they run their company. If Ford lays off half their workers and decides to make tortillas instead of cars, I don't get to return my truck.
If something is wrong with my truck (within the warranty period), I have the right to restitution from the company, in the form of a replacement or a refund. If I am dissatisfied in some other way, I have the right to speak out about it, but I don't get to claim money from Ford because of my own dissatisfaction.
The ESO Community
Again, this all seems like it should be self-explanatory, but apparently a few of you need a refresher course in what your role in this process is. We're consumers, not investors. We have absolutely no say in how ZO does business. We're entitled to hold an opinion, but that's it.
When we paid for our subscription time, we received it. You are not entitled to further restitution, because you got exactly what you paid for.
It's nice to see there are still people that are able to turn the other cheek no matter what is being done to them. You probably don't even need a lubrication when you are being worked on.
It's nice to see that people are incapable of understanding that having their feelings hurt doesn't mean they are entitled to compensation.
You're not an investor, no matter how much you may feel like your subscription fee makes you one. I'm sorry that you were laboring under that misapprehension, but I'm sure things will work out for you.
Indeed, while they have released the B2P news in a less than satisfactory manner, they have broken no laws, and have infringed on none of our rights.People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule2 -
Naivefanboi✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Having it be considered is a long way from having it in the store. Although they very clearly are including an XP boost as part of the ESO Plus membership.
But they flat-out said that they won't put actual gear on the store. So please stop with the sky falling and all that.
yea rift said exact same thing, when i left you could buy raid gear on the store. maybe not best in slot but still rofl0 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭The deal beaker for me is not so much the quality of the store item, it's how much time and effort you short-cut by purchasing it.
Everything always needs to be valued and weighted towards any in-game possibility obtaining the same thing. That's how I define p2w.
If you can get a boost, armor, fastest mount or whatever in a few day just playing the game normally, than it's surely not p2w, if also available in the store. If you however need to grind gold, pray to rng, claw your eyes out, grind dungeons for months or even years (while the store offers it in 1 click), than you're playing a trashy p2w game.1 -
Naivefanboi✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Having it be considered is a long way from having it in the store. Although they very clearly are including an XP boost as part of the ESO Plus membership.
But they flat-out said that they won't put actual gear on the store. So please stop with the sky falling and all that.
@nerevarine1138: could you please point out for everyone where you read/heard that? I cannot find it anywhere. They don't seem to ever use the word "gear" in their answers, so feel free to enlighten me.
Straight from the horse's mouth (if Matt Firor were a horse):
"We have no plans to sell armor or armor pieces in the Crown Store, just costumes that look like them."
You believe anything at all they still have to say?
I feel sorry for you.
Yes, if a company EVER changes it's plans, it is completely untrustworthy for the rest of human existence.
/rollseyes
If a company ever uses subscriber money to...
Stop right there. What a company uses THEIR money for is none of your business. It is not subscriber money. It stopped being subscriber money the second the deal - "we allow you into our game, you give us money" - was done.
Your only right regarding to what they use the money for is to stop giving them any more if you are unhappy about the way they spent it. That is all.
You don't care at all what happens with the money you spend, is that what I should gather from your post?
If so, then I feel sorry for you too.
No, they just understand what their money was spent for.
Your subscription fees were for access to the game for the months you bought. You received that access. How the company uses their various sources of funding is not your concern unless you're an investor.
And do you think these companies would exist without our money?
We (the subscribers) funded their existence & kept them afloat. We had certain expectations for the game.
How much did the console audience contribute to the game's existence?
Mostly just by negative reviews & "ESO sux" comments.
In fact, Zenimax's complete disregard & disrespect of their paying customers and their wishes is a borderline scam.
What happened to "customer is always right". What happened to ethics & morals?
Maybe none of this was the case in the first place.
Zenimax Media Inc, welcome to my list of garbage:
EA
Ubisoft
Activision
Trion
Zenimax Media Inc
Again, you are fundamentally misunderstanding your role. You are a customer, not an investor. You have absolutely no financial stake in this business, regardless of the made-up stakes you've given yourself.
And you are misunderstanding your basic human rights. You are entitled to get angry & defend yourself, if you're being scammed & treated like a ***.
You do have financial stake in the business. The business wouldn't exist without us, subscribers (to whom they show zero respect or appreciation). Try to get that through your skull.nerevarine1138 wrote: »You have the same rights as a customer that you've always had: the right to pay for a product or service that you want. Your subscription was you doing that. If you don't want this product anymore, quit paying for it (or don't, because you'll still be able to play after the transition). Your subscription didn't cover anything besides the months you paid for, and you received those in full.
Terms of the service: we pay, they create content, because that is how subscription MMOs work. You must be new to them.
How they do not work: we pay, they create DLCs & Cash Shops for entirely different audience & throw us the scraps and then tell us to go F ourselves.nerevarine1138 wrote: »And finally, the customer is not always right. That's a terrible philosophy that has bred a small but loud group of entitled consumers who feel that a company's job is to take care of their every whim, no matter how irrational it may be. In these situations, the customer is often wrong, and companies that acknowledge that to themselves and let said customer go end up doing better in the long run.
I love how you're coming up with your own definitions
Everyone that doesn't get scammed and then thank a company for it, is part of "a small group entitled consumers"? Grow a spine please. People like you are the exact reason for everything that is *** in this industry.
Customer & company relationship is based on trust. If you can't trust the company, then you either:- sue it, which we can't do, due to ToS.
or - just forget it & avoid making the same mistake twice (and make sure to warn other people of it).
haha ditto perfect!
0 - sue it, which we can't do, due to ToS.
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Naivefanboi✭✭✭✭e.chiesa73b16_ESO wrote: »OMFG, some of you are unbelivable.
You and me paid for a service: such service was ESO. We used that service and in return we paid ZOS. ZOS owes us nothing, they delivered what we paid for.
We were not funding them. We were not paying for the promise of a brighter future. If you think you are paying a company for the unspoken agreement that its product will be better in the future, and that the company owes you that, you are delusional. Your problems are bigger than FtP vs PtP.
Now they changed their plan: have they lied to us? I think so.
But it is in their right to do whatever they want with THEIR product. You don't like it anymore? GTFO!
In fact, you don't sue McDonald because they changed the (insert-product-name-here)'s recipe. You just go to another resturant.
guess you forgot the beta days when they used to claim thieves guild and dark brother hood would be in first major content patch. oh yea and craglorn will be in at launch..... things like this sealed the deal for my pre order and collectors edition. them failing to deliver is exactly why i left after my free month.
just because people arnt happy with current systems and refuse to pay for it. doesnt mean they wont play. who knows they might even go outa their way to break the game even further xD
like it or gtfo? did you used to work for trion? big bad rift moderator and developer used that exact same line when they went f2p. was right before i had my account deleted lol.hows that game doen now days? rofl thought soEdited by Naivefanboi on January 24, 2015 5:26PM2 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Having it be considered is a long way from having it in the store. Although they very clearly are including an XP boost as part of the ESO Plus membership.
But they flat-out said that they won't put actual gear on the store. So please stop with the sky falling and all that.
@nerevarine1138: could you please point out for everyone where you read/heard that? I cannot find it anywhere. They don't seem to ever use the word "gear" in their answers, so feel free to enlighten me.
Straight from the horse's mouth (if Matt Firor were a horse):
"We have no plans to sell armor or armor pieces in the Crown Store, just costumes that look like them."
You believe anything at all they still have to say?
I feel sorry for you.
Yes, if a company EVER changes it's plans, it is completely untrustworthy for the rest of human existence.
/rollseyes
If a company ever uses subscriber money to...
Stop right there. What a company uses THEIR money for is none of your business. It is not subscriber money. It stopped being subscriber money the second the deal - "we allow you into our game, you give us money" - was done.
Your only right regarding to what they use the money for is to stop giving them any more if you are unhappy about the way they spent it. That is all.
You don't care at all what happens with the money you spend, is that what I should gather from your post?
If so, then I feel sorry for you too.
No, they just understand what their money was spent for.
Your subscription fees were for access to the game for the months you bought. You received that access. How the company uses their various sources of funding is not your concern unless you're an investor.
And do you think these companies would exist without our money?
We (the subscribers) funded their existence & kept them afloat. We had certain expectations for the game.
How much did the console audience contribute to the game's existence?
Mostly just by negative reviews & "ESO sux" comments.
In fact, Zenimax's complete disregard & disrespect of their paying customers and their wishes is a borderline scam.
What happened to "customer is always right". What happened to ethics & morals?
Maybe none of this was the case in the first place.
Zenimax Media Inc, welcome to my list of garbage:
EA
Ubisoft
Activision
Trion
Zenimax Media Inc
Again, you are fundamentally misunderstanding your role. You are a customer, not an investor. You have absolutely no financial stake in this business, regardless of the made-up stakes you've given yourself.
You have the same rights as a customer that you've always had: the right to pay for a product or service that you want. Your subscription was you doing that. If you don't want this product anymore, quit paying for it (or don't, because you'll still be able to play after the transition). Your subscription didn't cover anything besides the months you paid for, and you received those in full.
And finally, the customer is not always right. That's a terrible philosophy that has bred a small but loud group of entitled consumers who feel that a company's job is to take care of their every whim, no matter how irrational it may be. In these situations, the customer is often wrong, and companies that acknowledge that to themselves and let said customer go end up doing better in the long run.
@nerevarine1138
I agree that customers aren't always right. But a cash paying (especially recurring) customer not being an "investor" or financial stakeholder is somewhat incorrect.
Investors give money to the company and expect them to use it to later satisfy a return on that investment - typically this is purely financial. Paying customers pay to play this game and expect a return on that investment, not in $$$ terms but in other ways. In our case as customers, we may expect such things as continued enjoyment in the game and especially continuity of service in a way that is expected, be it consistency, fulfillment of "promises", enjoyment, etc.
I can understand where you and other that that say you can stop paying any time and leave are coming from. Certainly that is true. However, there is a good portion of investment in the game, especially all the time and effort to level, gear up, etc, that is NECESSARY and BY DESIGN to progress in the game as well as into future content and expansions. I repeat, by design, they want to hook you in, want you as a long term customer, much like a drug dealer (some would say well designed games are indeed addicting as well, that's just how well they are designed).
While quitting the game is an option to protest disgruntlement with a company, there is still quite a bit of loss felt in that expectation of continuity ending and that all that time and effort being lost.
This isn't like hey I bought a candy bar, didn't like it so much, I'll stop giving them my money and not buy from them next time. Not so much invested in that one candybar, meh, no sweat.
For avid gamers, competitive gamers, fan-boi gamers, etc, it's a little different yes?
But back to stakeholder.
I don't like seeing such bad mis-information. Business/economy/corporations are part of the fabric of our existence these days. I highly suggest that everyone that lives in a "capitalistic" society take some business and economics classes or at the least find some 101 videos on youtube, otherwise it's like owning a car and not knowing jack all about how it works and being at the mercy of rip off mechanics. Arm yourself with some basic knowledge.
A start:
Googled: business are customers considered stakeholders?
here is one hit from that which does a fair job of summarizing
Your Company’s Most Important Stakeholders—No Ifs, Ands, or Buts
I do agree with you on one thing though Nev, customers aren't always right, and as a stakeholder should NOT be ENTITLED to expect more than what is reasonable just because they are a customer. But at the same time, customers should not be treated badly, deceived, etc. Some business analysts would suggest that customers should not be considered secondary to giving in to the pressure from primary financial investors demanding ROI because if you upset your customers, especially in a service industry, everyone will lose.
I know they have to make their money. And they certainly can change the way they do it whenever they want, be it out of pressure, greed, whatever. But there is a certain distaste that can come from that, especially when it's covered up with a Jedi mind trick nothing to see here wave of the arm. That just sets off more flags.
Again though, you are right, ultimately taking business elsewhere is the solution, it's just disheartening to say the least, not just regarding this game, but seeing the effects of corporate "changes" on yet another game.
I wonder if crowdsourcing will be the way of the future. Certainly is interesting.
Edited by Sylvyr on January 25, 2015 5:45AMBadge: Wall-of-Text GRANDMASTER
PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"1 -
Aside from the legal matter about false advertising and consumer rights, there is a core notion you all seem to forget:
The subscription fee for MMOs is mainly for future development.
It always was the deal for every MMO before, and especially ESO since that is what they advertised. Maintenance barely costs a few cents per player, however devs, artists and designers cost a lot. The tacit contract is that the game company anounces its plans and you chose to subscribe to see those plans realised. What already exists is paid by the box price when you first join.
A subscriber isn't technicaly an investor, but is paying in order to see the game improved and increase the value proposition of its subscription.3 -
Funkopotamus✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »But they flat-out said that they won't put actual gear on the store. So please stop with the sky falling and all that.
^^^ LMAO..
They flat out said the game would neve---- ...
"Nevermind your a sheep"
Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" Sallington3 -
Funkopotamus✭✭✭✭✭Bare in mind that they are releasing this thing to console at the very WORST time to do so.. "Summer" So if they are expecting console to boost the cash flow.... the cash shop items are going to have to be VERY ENTICING!
Like say maybe a Max level potion..
+50% EXP potion...
End game Gear.
You know the normal stuff you find in those P2W games..
Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" Sallington2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Aside from the legal matter about false advertising and consumer rights, there is a core notion you all seem to forget:
The subscription fee for MMOs is mainly for future development.
It always was the deal for every MMO before, and especially ESO since that is what they advertised. Maintenance barely costs a few cents per player, however devs, artists and designers cost a lot. The tacit contract is that the game company anounces its plans and you chose to subscribe to see those plans realised. What already exists is paid by the box price when you first join.
A subscriber isn't technicaly an investor, but is paying in order to see the game improved and increase the value proposition of its subscription.
I don't know why this is such a tough concept to grasp.
My subscription fee may be used for anything ZO likes, but all I paid it for was to have access to the servers. That is the beginning and end of my contract with ZO. You don't pay a magazine subscription in order to have influence over what kind of articles they write.
@Sylvyr
You're spouting management philosophy, but it has no bearing on reality. While a company may want to view their customers as stakeholders, that doesn't change the fact that customers aren't stakeholders in said company. People who buy products on the Google Play Store don't actually have any financial stake in the company, and as such, they have no say over how Google conducts business.
You can always have a broader philosophy that treats your customers as shareholders in the company, but the reality is that you wouldn't include them in a board/shareholders meeting, because you know full well that they aren't actually investors.----
Murray?3 -
BlueIllyrian✭✭✭e.chiesa73b16_ESO wrote: »OMFG, some of you are unbelivable.
Now they changed their plan: have they lied to us? I think so.
But it is in their right to do whatever they want with THEIR product. You don't like it anymore? GTFO!
Ahh, and the smell of rotting flesh permeates throughout the forum. As a new player, I would feel so welcome and utterly wet myself with anticipation at how warm and welcoming everyone is. I just better remember my place, or I may just have to GTFO.
Us peasants don't matter save to cheer loud enough or his lordship might have to whip us into line (verbally speaking, at least one hopes), I am a new player that started at Christmas.0 -
Ahdora✭✭✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Aside from the legal matter about false advertising and consumer rights, there is a core notion you all seem to forget:
The subscription fee for MMOs is mainly for future development.
It always was the deal for every MMO before, and especially ESO since that is what they advertised. Maintenance barely costs a few cents per player, however devs, artists and designers cost a lot. The tacit contract is that the game company anounces its plans and you chose to subscribe to see those plans realised. What already exists is paid by the box price when you first join.
A subscriber isn't technicaly an investor, but is paying in order to see the game improved and increase the value proposition of its subscription.
Absolutely this.
I don't consider myself an investor, I don't feel that I deserve compensation for anything, and I am aware that ZOS does not owe me anything other than server access for my subscription fee.
But I've been playing sub MMOs for years. I initially purchase and subscribe to the game to experience current content. When announcements are made about future content, that is what I use to decide whether I would like to continue my subscription.
It is, of course, my decision to continue that subscription service. I am doing so, however, upon the company's own announcements of what is to come. I am looking forward to future content, because this is not some console game that you play for 100 hours and you're basically done. This genre of game is supposed to be something that you can play for the foreseeable future and never run out of things to do, because there is always infusion of fresh content.
I had been growing leery of where the game was headed, what with the complete lack of the VAST MAJORITY of the content they'd sold me on. The B2P announcement caused my initial reaction of canceling my sub, as I didn't "agree" with much of what they were doing regarding the transition. The last AUA reinforced my decision.
I understand how business works. I know that deadlines get pushed back, that things need to change here and there. I'm quite a forgiving person, and up until all of this was a supporter of ZOS. Not a blind one, I had questions, but firmly in their camp. I often told naysayers to chill, because "ZOS has confirmed [x]." And now I'm eating a lot of crow, because it doesn't seem to matter what they confirm or deny. They just change it. Major things. They ignore community concerns for quite a while and then just blast this at us all, and wrap it up in a bow like it's some kind of gift.
Why should I support a company whose decision-making (on many levels) and ethics are poor, in my opinion? I have no wish to support them any longer. My reasons are quite valid, and I am tired of seeing people being belittled on this forum for canceling over this.
It may not be a big deal to some of you, but it's a big deal to me, and I have shown that to them directly with my wallet. As have many of my friends. All of us have been playing since before launch. We all had high hopes for the future of this game and many kept playing despite utter boredom, because they told us all of these great things were to come. Well now these great things are going to take significantly longer to develop, and we are left with the choice to either "rent" it, or purchase it all separately. No thank you, I choose neither.
As I've said before, my mistake was placing faith in a company that I felt deserved it. I expected too much, clearly, when I expected a certain level of reasonable transparency. I will not make the same mistake again.Heals With Stick, V11 Argonian Nightblade Healer, NA-EP4 -
Razzak✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Aside from the legal matter about false advertising and consumer rights, there is a core notion you all seem to forget:
The subscription fee for MMOs is mainly for future development.
It always was the deal for every MMO before, and especially ESO since that is what they advertised. Maintenance barely costs a few cents per player, however devs, artists and designers cost a lot. The tacit contract is that the game company anounces its plans and you chose to subscribe to see those plans realised. What already exists is paid by the box price when you first join.
A subscriber isn't technicaly an investor, but is paying in order to see the game improved and increase the value proposition of its subscription.
I don't know why this is such a tough concept to grasp.
My subscription fee may be used for anything ZO likes, but all I paid it for was to have access to the servers. That is the beginning and end of my contract with ZO. You don't pay a magazine subscription in order to have influence over what kind of articles they write.
@Sylvyr
You're spouting management philosophy, but it has no bearing on reality. While a company may want to view their customers as stakeholders, that doesn't change the fact that customers aren't stakeholders in said company. People who buy products on the Google Play Store don't actually have any financial stake in the company, and as such, they have no say over how Google conducts business.
You can always have a broader philosophy that treats your customers as shareholders in the company, but the reality is that you wouldn't include them in a board/shareholders meeting, because you know full well that they aren't actually investors.
Investment is not only measured in money. Anyone saying that subscribers are not investers, is only right as long she/he is talking about a currency value of such investment. We are not shareholders or anything similar that can be expressed in a numerical value and thus many of you have a valid point when trying to bring that point across.
What you are forgeting is that MMO subscription service is unlike almost any other service. Meaning, we can't make a proper comparisons or analogies with just about any type of service out there.
And the key point of that is the core reason of investment in a MMO. It's the reason that is not taught in business schools, so no matter how many degrees one might have, it's not only enough that you have an MBA in economy, stock exchange or anything related to that. One first class MBA is more likely to be the worst person to evaluate the real core of MMO investment.
Care.
We and devs invest in care. Simple as that.
We pay our subs not so we could invest in their salaries, new hardware, their time or anything related to that. We pay our subs because we are investing into their care. Their care for us and by that for their game. Their care for the future of their own game and the possibility to make a game that will have long and prosperous future. A future where players are the biggest defendants of this game not only so they could play longer, but because they believe in what "their" game represents.
We are investing our sub so we and devs together could make a game that transcends a mere few hours of play time/ week. Is it impossible to have a game that is more than numbers on the screen? To me, it's not. But in order to achieve that, there has to be care, passion. The real ones, not just PR equivalents with proper wording and punctuations.
Devs invest their time, knowledge and all they are as professionals into developing our care. Our care for the game, so we would be playing it for a larger purpose than to spend few hours playing ... something, anything. They invest what they know, so our care of the game would be so great that we would become their biggest PR practitioners. Our care and passion for their game it's biggest driving force.
It's obvious you and others that think like you, do have care and passion for playing. If it was not so, you would not be spending so much time "playing" the forum, like I and the rest like me, do.
But, do you have this care and passion only for playing a game, or is it reserved only, or at least largely, for playing the game, ESO?
My care and passion in the past year, has been focused solely into ESO. That's why I am so opposed to the way devs have handled the game and us. Our care.Edited by Razzak on January 25, 2015 3:03PM3 -
Carina✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Having it be considered is a long way from having it in the store. Although they very clearly are including an XP boost as part of the ESO Plus membership.
But they flat-out said that they won't put actual gear on the store. So please stop with the sky falling and all that.
@nerevarine1138: could you please point out for everyone where you read/heard that? I cannot find it anywhere. They don't seem to ever use the word "gear" in their answers, so feel free to enlighten me.
Can you please point out where Zenimax stated they are putting gear in the cash shop, or have you seen it actually happen? It works both ways. The sensible option in this case is to wait and see and not to assume the worst. If it does turn out that they put actual (non-cosmetic) gear in the cash shop, then yes, it would be logical to then quit, but until then it's best not to give into paranoia.Edited by Carina on January 25, 2015 8:22PM3 -
Carina✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Having it be considered is a long way from having it in the store. Although they very clearly are including an XP boost as part of the ESO Plus membership.
But they flat-out said that they won't put actual gear on the store. So please stop with the sky falling and all that.
They "Flat out" said the game would never go F2P........
F2P is different from B2P... The game is not going F2P. It's going to be B2P with an optional subscription. Big difference. They kept their word.Edited by Carina on January 25, 2015 8:08PM5 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread is awful. Shame on you people.
Btw moderators, I thought threads made to cause conflict aren't allowed? If so, wtf? I hate when moderators pick and choose who they will apply their fascist rules to.Edited by SFBryan18 on January 25, 2015 4:44PM3