I've never quit a game because it went F2P or B2P

Miszou · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.

Err, no. Player burnout is quite real.

The answer is in the piece you quoted. Burn out only exists for bad games.
Good games keep on getting played forever.
And good MMOs keep on growing forever.

Chalk it up on player retention, the core objective of susbcription, rather than increased turn over, the core objective of f2p.

Interesting argument you have there... if I provide an example of burning out on a game, you will simply turn around and claim that the game must have been bad.

Very well done. You've created an air-tight argument that is both elegant in its design and yet completely and utterly worthless as a discussion point.

/golf clap

Xsorus · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.

Err, no. Player burnout is quite real.

The answer is in the piece you quoted. Burn out only exists for bad games.
Good games keep on getting played forever.
And good MMOs keep on growing forever.

Chalk it up on player retention, the core objective of susbcription, rather than increased turn over, the core objective of f2p.

Explain DAOC to me then, I honestly consider it the best MMO of all time..but i still quit playing after a while simply because i've done every thing.

Also..I had my LOTRO subscription before it went f2p..I bought it mainly because I wanted a secondary MMO for when I was inbetween MMO's. Its no longer my secondary anymore, I use SWTOR as my secondary now.

Because they fell behind and time made it less good.
I tried out DAOC at release, then 10 years afterwards and it hasn't aged well.
While I agree with you it was a revolutionary game in its time and has seminal lessons about game design, but if you've tried a more modern MMO it is very hard to get into it.
Also, the playerbase has shrunk by a lot, I do not think the experience is the same than at its prime when servers were full.
The devs just droped the ball.

Unrelated fun fact, despite it being everything I could want, I never played DAOC aside from beta. That game literaly killed my previous game as the servers were recycled from one to the other (T4C to Daoc by GOA in France) and at the time I was a kid that couldn't afford a sub.

On another hand, you have games nearly as old than managed to update themselves over the years to look and feel at place with the new times.
For example, Eve Online that is beautiful nowadays and has mostly updated mechanics.

For the lifetime sub, it was not related to f2p change. Lotro was one of the first, and at the time it was reasonable to still give the model a chance.
However, the three monthers trend was already in full swing and a lifetime sub was an extremly risky bet.
It just shows that you're a very easy going customer compared to the norm. As I said, you're a whale, part of the 0.22% that spend a lot on MMOs.
I'm not jusging,I'm barely better, as I pre ordered collector editions of AOC, STO and ESO. I'm just feeling it's about time we wise up.

What ZOS is doing here is neither fair nor smart.
They've lost trust from a good chunk of their most hardcore fans, went back on their word and for just a small quick buck.
You can't have f2p competing in overall profit with the subscription model.

Lifetime is never really a risky bet, if the game offers it and i plan on playing it i'll usually buy it. Mainly because you can always sell the lifetime for whatever it cost years later..for example...I've had people offer me $250 for my LOTRO account..even now..

if eso would of offered a lifetime, I probably would of bought it, along with Rift/SWTOR (I would of did SWTOR's lifetime in a heart beat)

In fact Camelot unchained is the most recent lifetime account i bought.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

@Miszou‌
In the initial point what I was illustrating was that player burnout is the excuse given to games like WoW losing subscribers or most other WoW clone failures in the past years not retaining players beyond 3 months.

The truth is, they were bad games to begin with, and in the case of WoW, became a bad game. The general population does not "burnout" in good games but instead keep on growing. This is why player burnout is a myth.

Can you get tired of a good game and take a break? Yes, but if the game is good you'll always get back to it eventually. You only burn out of games that aren't good and you never give them a second look.

@xsorusb14_ESO‌
Well, I guess we have various levels of trust. And I also don't like to sell my accounts so whatever I pay is sunk cost.
I haven't paid more than 1 month at a time since 2009. For the past 8 years, most games barely last 3 months, so a lifetime susbcription doesn't seem like a good investment in my opinion.
As I said, you're a whale, and I'm a smaller fish.

Funny thing is, I was becoming a biger fish for ESO.
I was about to susbcribe for 6 month to ESO if 1.6 turned out as good as it seemed and was about to spam all my gaming buddies again.
I was thinking: Well ESO is delivering and doing great, I guess I can show some more trust.
I'm so glad I didn't. I would have had such buyers remorse.
I already feel naive and a fool, staying subbed despite the bugs, the aoe cap, the lack of friends, just for promises that got flushed away.

Though, I do look forward to CU as well now that ESO seems out of the picture on the long term.

BlueIllyrian · January 2015

Heruthema wrote: »

No you DO NOT KNOW. You can assume based on previous experience, but you do not know. It all depends on decisions that may or may not have already been or will be made in the future.
Again at this point no one has anything to lose other than some time. This may all go downhill and then again it could end up being the exception. But NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.

Brilliant, let's give them time and money while we wait and see.

eliisra · January 2015

I haven't quit because of f2p/b2p either, always gave the game a chance after transition.

However I always ended up leaving anyway due to symptoms of f2p. Basically new store bling every single week over content.

If you look at the raids, main quests and instances, created during a games p2p era, it's always superior compared to new stuff made for a f2p audience. No more rich, epic, great atmosphere content. You will even notice the quality decrease when reading quest dialogues and sound/music.

Also the increase of rng based rewards, bundles of lucky boxes with 0.001% chance of a best in slot items everywhere together with marks, tokens and currencies to use if you want to trade for even more boxes. I cant even call it p2w elements, because no one is a winner. All players loose when gear progression is about making money+gambling instead of playing the actual game. This fun-killer always comes eventually when a game drops a mandatory subscription. That's when I give up on it.

Than again ESO will be b2p, they have to deliver some sort of quality or no one will pay for DLC. Do hope they keep the new store infestation somewhat contained.

jpatek0501ub17_ESO · January 2015

The world to me is going to feel broken up into micro transactions, not immersive just a theme park with fast passes, novelty cups, and carnival games.

Oh that's awesome where you get that?.....Crown store 3000pts. Oh...=/

How you do that Emote?....Emote pack in Crown store....

Even if Non P2W, Content/Items are blocked through a pay wall. Sub or Micro trans.

I'm not into mounts/pets/costumes/BOOSTERS LAME, but the whole idea just kills world for me.

jpatek0501ub17_ESO · January 2015

Lol, all the hopefuls and defendants are like cattle being herded to the slaughter house. Time to get paid for all that meat.

Roechacca · January 2015

Well la de da ! Good for you . You're happy . ZOS is happy . Everything must be ok ...

SteveCampsOut · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.
Look at Skyrim, people still play it a lot yet there are no multiplayer content.

You're wrong there bucko! I've been burned out of my fair share, from UO & DAoC to Perfect World and DDO. People get tired of same ol' same ol' after a while.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.

Err, no. Player burnout is quite real.

The answer is in the piece you quoted. Burn out only exists for bad games.
Good games keep on getting played forever.
And good MMOs keep on growing forever.

Chalk it up on player retention, the core objective of susbcription, rather than increased turn over, the core objective of f2p.

So you've lived "Forever" already? You know this to be a fact of life? The games I've burned out on were "Good" games, I just got tired of either playing or paying for them! Spent 6 years in DAoC, my longest run in any game. It was still the same game I loved and enjoyed, but I was tired of paying for it. 6 years was enough. I went on to play the Dawn of Light DAoC Free shards for a few years for free even. That was fun and exciting in it's own right, helping to bring the paid game to life in the Freeshard realm. Spent some time coding for them even. If anything about that game got bad, it was the community of players, not the game itself.

AlexDougherty · January 2015

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

SW:TOR is a an odd-ball, it's impossible to play meaningfully without indulging it lots of MT at the store yet as a subscriber you need the store as well or else you're somewhat gimped.

Not quite, apart from the fact most of the stuff appears on GTM kiosks (auction house), there is another way of never actually using the cash store.

Multiple characters and crafting, you can craft armour, weapons, crystals,medical, droid parts and ship parts.

It does require you keeping at leats three characters at or near the same level, and finding a load of schemetics, but it can be done.

My only problem with Swtor was the stories finished, and without the stories it was just grinding.

Naivefanboi · January 2015

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

I too have played (and still play to some extent) LOTRO, Rift and SW:TOR and to me they show that the change from pure-sub to sub/free model (hybrid) can destroy a game as Turbine did with LOTRO .. or make little real difference as in Rift where everything is pretty much free and you can easily level to cap and even do much end-game without spending a single cent/penny/franc of real-world cash.

SW:TOR is a an odd-ball, it's impossible to play meaningfully without indulging it lots of MT at the store yet as a subscriber you need the store as well or else you're somewhat gimped.

Right now my hope is that ZOS follow Trion's model and not Turbine's, time will tell.

I still subscribe to Rift, I think it's still worth it, like you I have a Lifetime in LOTRO if it weren't for that I'd have stopped subscribing a long time ago.

lol people like you are why i quit riftwhen it went f2p, that and the dev saying like f2p this is my game or gtfo. so i did just that.i find it really odd you dislike swtors cash shop but have no issues with rifts. which sells GEAR in the shop lol. if you support that i have little hope for the shop from ZOS.

i mean it just makes sense from a buisness angle. get more people. some dont sub, the rest sub and pay for stuff in cash shop. so they make even more money. buut tells dont expect new content either lol. and you just cant wait to gobble that up and throw more money at its rofl
thank you sir for all you do for the industry!

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.
Look at Skyrim, people still play it a lot yet there are no multiplayer content.

You're wrong there bucko! I've been burned out of my fair share, from UO & DAoC to Perfect World and DDO. People get tired of same ol' same ol' after a while.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.

Err, no. Player burnout is quite real.

The answer is in the piece you quoted. Burn out only exists for bad games.
Good games keep on getting played forever.
And good MMOs keep on growing forever.

Chalk it up on player retention, the core objective of susbcription, rather than increased turn over, the core objective of f2p.

So you've lived "Forever" already? You know this to be a fact of life? The games I've burned out on were "Good" games, I just got tired of either playing or paying for them! Spent 6 years in DAoC, my longest run in any game. It was still the same game I loved and enjoyed, but I was tired of paying for it. 6 years was enough. I went on to play the Dawn of Light DAoC Free shards for a few years for free even. That was fun and exciting in it's own right, helping to bring the paid game to life in the Freeshard realm. Spent some time coding for them even. If anything about that game got bad, it was the community of players, not the game itself.

Something about the game did get bad.
The comunity is part of that but it also stopped evolving. You even had to step in and code for it which indicates that there was room for improvement.

Read my thrid comment on the subject, the one you didn't quote.
In short, burnout is an excuse given to bad games or games that became bad to justify their loss of subscribers.
That's the myth part. Good games keep growing because while some players take breaks, most don't feel the need or don't "burnout". Just look at Eve.
The semantics are important here. You can get bored of a good game ,and take a break. Burn out is when you never want to look back at it.

Can you honestly say that if someone were to release a graphicaly updated DAOC with quality of life improvement, you wouldn't sub straight away?
If the answer is yes, then you didn't burn out, you just got bored of the lack of progress.

Dave2836 · January 2015

Miszou wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.

Err, no. Player burnout is quite real.

The answer is in the piece you quoted. Burn out only exists for bad games.
Good games keep on getting played forever.
And good MMOs keep on growing forever.

Chalk it up on player retention, the core objective of susbcription, rather than increased turn over, the core objective of f2p.

Interesting argument you have there... if I provide an example of burning out on a game, you will simply turn around and claim that the game must have been bad.

Very well done. You've created an air-tight argument that is both elegant in its design and yet completely and utterly worthless as a discussion point.

/golf clap

I'll give you an example of game burnout. SKYRIM. The fact that mods exist for it is indicative of burn out. Diablo II had plenty of mods as well. These are two fantastic games, which had plenty of replayability.

All the expansion packs and DLCs wouldn't be able to save these games after a while. The fact that they exist at all shows the limitations of consumer interaction with an original product. A good game with a good mechanic and engaging story will keep the interest of a player longer, however the shelf life of exploring multiple endings or using different classes in the same settings does get stale.

EDIT - just wanted to throw in there, anyone watch MMOXREVIEW's Skyrim Mods Weekly videos on you tube? Elianora's house mods are phenomenal.

Cody · January 2015

Good for you I suppose.......?

phairdon · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't know, to me the recount of your background seems to be pretty much an argument against f2p.

You clearly state that you are a whale, part of those very few that spend over $100 on a free game. Heck, you even have bought lifetime subscriptions at a time where it was already known that they were no longer a good deal.

And despite all that, you got bored of the games you were playing and paying. Or you left due to changes that were obviously made by inexperienced people.
Maybe you didn't equate it to leaving because of f2p, but it indirectly was because of it.

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.
Look at Skyrim, people still play it a lot yet there are no multiplayer content.
Or Counter Strike, it has had a few reskins over the years, but it is still played just as much as a decade ago.
Or Eve Online that never stopped groing its subscriber numbers for 11 years.
There are so many examples out there. Chess has been played for thousand of years.

Bottom line is, F2P MMOs become bad games waranting that we leave them. Whether you do it for the tree, individual incidents you mention in your list, or the forest, the acknowledgment that f2p is destructive.

I'd debate the part about players not becoming bored with good games. Played 25 months of GW2. Slowly but surely my interest in the game is waning after doing the same content over & over & over. which is no different than any other game played, whether online or single player.
Otherwise game servers would never be empty or dropped altogether.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

phairdon wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't know, to me the recount of your background seems to be pretty much an argument against f2p.

You clearly state that you are a whale, part of those very few that spend over $100 on a free game. Heck, you even have bought lifetime subscriptions at a time where it was already known that they were no longer a good deal.

And despite all that, you got bored of the games you were playing and paying. Or you left due to changes that were obviously made by inexperienced people.
Maybe you didn't equate it to leaving because of f2p, but it indirectly was because of it.

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.
Look at Skyrim, people still play it a lot yet there are no multiplayer content.
Or Counter Strike, it has had a few reskins over the years, but it is still played just as much as a decade ago.
Or Eve Online that never stopped groing its subscriber numbers for 11 years.
There are so many examples out there. Chess has been played for thousand of years.

Bottom line is, F2P MMOs become bad games waranting that we leave them. Whether you do it for the tree, individual incidents you mention in your list, or the forest, the acknowledgment that f2p is destructive.

I'd debate the part about players not becoming bored with good games. Played 25 months of GW2. Slowly but surely my interest in the game is waning after doing the same content over & over & over. which is no different than any other game played, whether online or single player.
Otherwise game servers would never be empty or dropped altogether.

Here's your problem, you've been doing the same content for 25months.
There are games that never stop adding new content or systems adding replayability. Those keep growing while GW2 is losing revenue continually.

After months of neglect, GW2 became worse and worse and that's what is causing you to become disengaged from it.

GW2 is actually a great argument against b2p/f2p. It started out as a decent game but never managed to become great.

Eve started out as a *** game, ended up one of the most financially succesful one.

phairdon · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't know, to me the recount of your background seems to be pretty much an argument against f2p.

You clearly state that you are a whale, part of those very few that spend over $100 on a free game. Heck, you even have bought lifetime subscriptions at a time where it was already known that they were no longer a good deal.

And despite all that, you got bored of the games you were playing and paying. Or you left due to changes that were obviously made by inexperienced people.
Maybe you didn't equate it to leaving because of f2p, but it indirectly was because of it.

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.
Look at Skyrim, people still play it a lot yet there are no multiplayer content.
Or Counter Strike, it has had a few reskins over the years, but it is still played just as much as a decade ago.
Or Eve Online that never stopped groing its subscriber numbers for 11 years.
There are so many examples out there. Chess has been played for thousand of years.

Bottom line is, F2P MMOs become bad games waranting that we leave them. Whether you do it for the tree, individual incidents you mention in your list, or the forest, the acknowledgment that f2p is destructive.

I'd debate the part about players not becoming bored with good games. Played 25 months of GW2. Slowly but surely my interest in the game is waning after doing the same content over & over & over. which is no different than any other game played, whether online or single player.
Otherwise game servers would never be empty or dropped altogether.

Here's your problem, you've been doing the same content for 25months.
There are games that never stop adding new content or systems adding replayability. Those keep growing while GW2 is losing revenue continually.

After months of neglect, GW2 became worse and worse and that's what is causing you to become disengaged from it.

GW2 is actually a great argument against b2p/f2p. It started out as a decent game but never managed to become great.

Eve started out as a *** game, ended up one of the most financially succesful one.

No. Simply because the game has more or less run its course for me, as all games do, after any given time period (for me).

Another example would be BF4. Yes the game has issues at release. A lot of content added, including very popular map packs from the previous game. One day my interest in the game ceased, regardless.

SgtPepperUK · January 2015

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Right now my hope is that ZOS follow Trion's model and not Turbine's, time will tell.

Arguably Trion were not aggresive enough with their model, which is why the company has had some financial issues.

As much as I hated what F2P did to LOTRO I have to hand it to them, they did it well, they pulled every trick they could and then some. One mainstay of the model is using a virtual currency to help disguise the true costs to the player, Turbine actually introduced two!

Some items needed Mythril Coins which were bought with Turbine Points which were bought with real life money.

Trion's model was great for players but not for the company's bottom line. Turbine's was detrimental to players but raked in a crazy amount of money for them (which they pretty much failed to reinvest into the game sadly).

It's very hard to strike the right balance between these two approaches and, honestly, I don't think that balance is something ZOS is capable of finding.

Razzak · January 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Out of all the MMO's i've played in the past 15+ years..I've never quit an MMO because its went F2P or B2P

Games i've played included LOTRO, which I have a lifetime subscription to that game...Hell I frankly made out like a bandit with it going f2p..I've bought every expansion that's came out since it went f2p with the currency i've saved up with it sitting there. No..i stopped playing it because it was boring..like most games i've stopped playing.

What about SWTOR, to be fair I have a subscription to it right now, But when I originally quit it had nothing to do with it going f2p, and everything to do with the fact Huttball stopped popping a lot when queuing for Warzones...thus leading to me playing god awful Civil War matches over and over again. What did I go play instead? The Secret World, which was one of the better RPGs i've played in the past decade or so..and its PvP was alright..but I quit it because Guild Wars 2 came out...a game which I quit not because it was b2p, but because of AOE caps and the downed system ruined its PvP, and it ended up stagnating.

What about Rift..I played the hell out of it...Hell my guild played the hell out of it...Did we quit that game because it went F2P? Nope..we quit that game because it bloody decided that premades should have their own PvP queue....Which is great if you have a crapton of premades, but when it went from us waiting 2 minutes to get into a Warzone to us waiting 60 Minutes for Warzone...we quit..Because why the hell would I want to play a game if I couldn't play with my friends...

Pretty much every MMO i've played out there F2P or B2P hasn't even been a factor in if I play it or not..It comes down to basically one thing and one thing only...

Am I having fun.

I don't think many are leaving because ESO is going B2P. It's lies and false promises that has driven some away, what B2P usually brings is what makes others leave, no new content is another thing, the idea that bug fixes and quality will take a back seat compared to cash shop items and fluff is yet another reason, their vague "we have no plan" on some of the things that were supposed to be in a game, ...

There are many reasons, but mere transition to B2P is more or less an annoyance for those that have or will leave before that happens.

Koensol · January 2015

A very narrow-minded post OP. Someone with only the slightest insight can tell you that this is only the next step into something they will definatelly not like. I'd rather not waste my money only to be disappointed once again after some time.

Derra · January 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Oh yea, I will say this about f2p or b2p... I would of given anything for warhammer online to of gone either of those options if it meant that game would of been saved. Instead I got to watch it die a sad death.

Don´t make me crawl out of bed just to be reminded of this. One of the niche games i really liked.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.

Err, no. Player burnout is quite real.

The answer is in the piece you quoted. Burn out only exists for bad games.
Good games keep on getting played forever.
And good MMOs keep on growing forever.

Chalk it up on player retention, the core objective of susbcription, rather than increased turn over, the core objective of f2p.

Explain DAOC to me then, I honestly consider it the best MMO of all time..but i still quit playing after a while simply because i've done every thing.

Also..I had my LOTRO subscription before it went f2p..I bought it mainly because I wanted a secondary MMO for when I was inbetween MMO's. Its no longer my secondary anymore, I use SWTOR as my secondary now.

I think it is something different for daoc. I often come back to the memories i have of that game. But then all i can think of is the time effort that went into that. We played for ages (my main character had over 2 years of /played). Had a groups of the same 8 people running every evening over months / years together.

Nowadays in eso it was a struggle to get 6 ppl together for 2 days a week and 3 hours straight playtime. I would still play daoc (hadn´t i lost my account due to the *** us transitioning - who the hell thought it was smart to only use login and not billing account information) if i had the time.
But even then you would need 7 likedminded people. Try to find those :P

Aevric · January 2015

So ... you quit a bunch of games. Your reasons for quitting them is less valid than what we've seen done in this game.
This whole thread is invalid.
Go away.