I've never quit a game because it went F2P or B2P

Xsorus · January 2015

Out of all the MMO's i've played in the past 15+ years..I've never quit an MMO because its went F2P or B2P

Games i've played included LOTRO, which I have a lifetime subscription to that game...Hell I frankly made out like a bandit with it going f2p..I've bought every expansion that's came out since it went f2p with the currency i've saved up with it sitting there. No..i stopped playing it because it was boring..like most games i've stopped playing.

What about SWTOR, to be fair I have a subscription to it right now, But when I originally quit it had nothing to do with it going f2p, and everything to do with the fact Huttball stopped popping a lot when queuing for Warzones...thus leading to me playing god awful Civil War matches over and over again. What did I go play instead? The Secret World, which was one of the better RPGs i've played in the past decade or so..and its PvP was alright..but I quit it because Guild Wars 2 came out...a game which I quit not because it was b2p, but because of AOE caps and the downed system ruined its PvP, and it ended up stagnating.

What about Rift..I played the hell out of it...Hell my guild played the hell out of it...Did we quit that game because it went F2P? Nope..we quit that game because it bloody decided that premades should have their own PvP queue....Which is great if you have a crapton of premades, but when it went from us waiting 2 minutes to get into a Warzone to us waiting 60 Minutes for Warzone...we quit..Because why the hell would I want to play a game if I couldn't play with my friends...

Pretty much every MMO i've played out there F2P or B2P hasn't even been a factor in if I play it or not..It comes down to basically one thing and one thing only...

Am I having fun.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · January 2015

I too have played (and still play to some extent) LOTRO, Rift and SW:TOR and to me they show that the change from pure-sub to sub/free model (hybrid) can destroy a game as Turbine did with LOTRO .. or make little real difference as in Rift where everything is pretty much free and you can easily level to cap and even do much end-game without spending a single cent/penny/franc of real-world cash.

SW:TOR is a an odd-ball, it's impossible to play meaningfully without indulging it lots of MT at the store yet as a subscriber you need the store as well or else you're somewhat gimped.

Right now my hope is that ZOS follow Trion's model and not Turbine's, time will tell.

I still subscribe to Rift, I think it's still worth it, like you I have a Lifetime in LOTRO if it weren't for that I'd have stopped subscribing a long time ago.

BlueIllyrian · January 2015

No, you just hopped around a ton of games, but you didn't quit them for f2p or b2p but for what you found important.

So am I allowed to find b2p transition important or should I align myself with your views?

Xsorus · January 2015

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

I too have played (and still play to some extent) LOTRO, Rift and SW:TOR and to me they show that the change from pure-sub to sub/free model (hybrid) can destroy a game as Turbine did with LOTRO .. or make little real difference as in Rift where everything is pretty much free and you can easily level to cap and even do much end-game without spending a single cent/penny/franc of real-world cash.

SW:TOR is a an odd-ball, it's impossible to play meaningfully without indulging it lots of MT at the store yet as a subscriber you need the store as well or else you're somewhat gimped.

Right now my hope is that ZOS follow Trion's model and not Turbine's, time will tell.

like i said...LOTRO i have a lifetime already, so I have a stupid amount of points saved up..I basically just log in once a week to pickup the weekly free lock box they give out (I stopped logging in daily for the crappier one) I think the only thing i've really bought out of that store besides the expansions is the reputation increases. Everything else I get from those boxes when I do play that come free.

Rift..when I came back and played it for its last expansion was go into the Store and buy the armor set (costume) i wanted....I had a stupid amount of points from that cause i'd spent $99 for the Expansion + Year Subscription combo they had before going f2p. I still kept a subscription with it because $15 is nothing.

as for SWTOR, I honestly cannot imagine how anyone plays that game without a Subscription.

Xsorus · January 2015

BlueIllyrian wrote: »

No, you just hopped around a ton of games, but you didn't quit them for f2p or b2p but for what you found important.

So am I allowed to find b2p transition important or should I align myself with your views?

If b2p makes the game no longer fun for you, Then you should quit.

For some of us though.... something actually has to happen gameplay wise for us to want to quit.

Xsorus · January 2015

Oh yea, I will say this about f2p or b2p... I would of given anything for warhammer online to of gone either of those options if it meant that game would of been saved. Instead I got to watch it die a sad death.

Morshire · January 2015

@xsorusb14_ESO - So I can agree with most of what you are saying, but the way you are saying it makes it hard to not see the relation between the two. I too loved LOTRO and have many characters at end game there. I didn't quit because it went F2P, heck I still ran it for years after that. I quit for the same reason as you. But let's be honest about that. Since it went F2P, it got more and more people that complained that the DPS wasn't high enough, or the tank needed too many heals, etc. Boosters went into the store, gear, etc. All the things one would need to just get an edge. Soon the updates were just scaled up version of the last one. Rep grinds for new gear, or repeated raids to find the one item. But they continued to develop more and more for the cash shop so they could milk that $$$. And yes, I too made out on Turbine Points. Didn't use them for boosts, etc. Bought those new maps or dungeon packs to be able to raid. But the focus was the source of revenue and so it got the attention. And for awhile, it was okay. You could level a toon to 20, get all the TP from completing trait quests. Delete them, and do it again. Quick TP, new map. And some of what came after F2P was great, 24 man Dragon run (took weeks to figure it out), Sarumon raid was the best. All those layers. But now there are not even new content coming and the focus is almost solely on the cash shop. So is F2P the reason? It appears that that is what happened. Did I quit because F2P? Nope, I quit because of the result of what F2P brought. I mean, really it is semantics. I think that this change for ESO, at the onset, will not be "bad", but if they are struggling for $$$ after just a year, and they throw in the cash shop for extra $$$, then the path is set for a repeat. Will ESO follow other games? Not a fortune teller, but I do look at history. Can they do this successfully? Time will tell. But it is set, for the easy money for ZOS, and if they decide the current model doesn't work.....cash shop. I am not going to quit just because of B2P, but I am hard pressed to fully "invest" in this game knowing what may/could happen in the future. It will be sad if this is a repeat. This game is a far cry from Morrowind - some of it good, some of it not. But changing things as they have, makes it less like a ES game and more like something I don't play anymore. That for me is where the "writing on the wall" stands out and makes me take notice. Do I want it to fail, nope. Am I going to jump ship, not yet. But, no one can say that ZOS hasn't been warned or that they don't have an easy road map to follow or avoid when making future decisions.
And that says nothing for the manner in which they conduct their business in correlation to the players. Some of their actions boarder on (insert whatever you want here). These things compound the "anger/frustration/whatever" of the player base. And the continued display of said actions makes people leery. Games that have followed this path have left a foul taste on the palate of gamers. Some people can stomach the taste still, others cannot. Just look at the forums to figure who is who.
Changing their business model is totally understandable, the way they did it is not (at least for me). And if they succeed as planned, this game will be huge. But if they fail, people will point to this decision and say, "I told you so".

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

I don't know, to me the recount of your background seems to be pretty much an argument against f2p.

You clearly state that you are a whale, part of those very few that spend over $100 on a free game. Heck, you even have bought lifetime subscriptions at a time where it was already known that they were no longer a good deal.

And despite all that, you got bored of the games you were playing and paying. Or you left due to changes that were obviously made by inexperienced people.
Maybe you didn't equate it to leaving because of f2p, but it indirectly was because of it.

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.
Look at Skyrim, people still play it a lot yet there are no multiplayer content.
Or Counter Strike, it has had a few reskins over the years, but it is still played just as much as a decade ago.
Or Eve Online that never stopped groing its subscriber numbers for 11 years.
There are so many examples out there. Chess has been played for thousand of years.

Bottom line is, F2P MMOs become bad games waranting that we leave them. Whether you do it for the tree, individual incidents you mention in your list, or the forest, the acknowledgment that f2p is destructive.

SantieClaws · January 2015

I didn't leave LOTRO because it went F2P. I left a year or so later when it F2P had driven it totally down the bathroom plumbing. I have not yet seen any clear statement of intent from ZOS about what they do and don't intend to put in this cash shop - which is what makes the difference.

Heruthema · January 2015

I agree with the OP about quitting if it is no longer Fun. That is what I do not get about some of the players. They treat this like it is Real Life. It is no longer a Game. It is the end of the world when any change happens.
It really does come down to One thing only, IS IT FUN ANYMORE?
If it is no longer fun, then leave. I will when and if I ever get to that point. But it will never be Life and Death like it seems it is to some. There will always be the next great game out there and it too will lose its luster after a while.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

Heruthema wrote: »

I agree with the OP about quitting if it is no longer Fun. That is what I do not get about some of the players. They treat this like it is Real Life. It is no longer a Game. It is the end of the world when any change happens.
It really does come down to One thing only, IS IT FUN ANYMORE?
If it is no longer fun, then leave. I will when and if I ever get to that point. But it will never be Life and Death like it seems it is to some. There will always be the next great game out there and it too will lose its luster after a while.

The point of people leaving now is that MMOs take time and commitment.
A core aspect of the game is progression of your character, getting more gear, skill points and soon champion points.
It all has meaning when each gain will have a lasting effect on your future fun.

However, you know that the game will become bad due to its model switch. You already know that you will, by design, stop having fun at a point much closer than anticipated.

So the logical move is to reduce your losses and take the time you would have spent in ESO and spend it on things you find equaly fun but have a future.

daneyulebub17_ESO · January 2015

like i said...LOTRO i have a lifetime already, so I have a stupid amount of points saved up..I basically just log in once a week to pickup the weekly free lock box they give out (I stopped logging in daily for the crappier one)

Gosh that sounds fun!!!! Hopefully, next year you'll be able to log in once a week (not more of course--ewww!) to get a cool ESO lockbox too!!! You're right--F2P makes a game GREAT!!!!

kieso · January 2015

"everything that has a beginning has an end."

- The Oracle

Heruthema · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

I agree with the OP about quitting if it is no longer Fun. That is what I do not get about some of the players. They treat this like it is Real Life. It is no longer a Game. It is the end of the world when any change happens.
It really does come down to One thing only, IS IT FUN ANYMORE?
If it is no longer fun, then leave. I will when and if I ever get to that point. But it will never be Life and Death like it seems it is to some. There will always be the next great game out there and it too will lose its luster after a while.

The point of people leaving now is that MMOs take time and commitment.
A core aspect of the game is progression of your character, getting more gear, skill points and soon champion points.
It all has meaning when each gain will have a lasting effect on your future fun.

However, you know that the game will become bad due to its model switch. You already know that you will, by design, stop having fun at a point much closer than anticipated.

So the logical move is to reduce your losses and take the time you would have spent in ESO and spend it on things you find equaly fun but have a future.

Then your option is to quit. I will when it is no longer fun. This is not an investment for me. It is entertainment, period. When it is no longer entertaining then I will move on. While it is I will put my heart and soul into it and have a blast.
You are never going to find the perfect game. Eventually every one of them will disappoint you somehow. To me the logical move as you put it, is to work with the game, try the new stuff, advance my characters and abilities, try new things, and when and if I decide it has lost its appeal, move on.
The new system has not even come out yet and your bailing because you THINK it is going to fail. You do not know that for sure.
At this point you could play for free after March and see. You have nothing to lose.

SantieClaws · January 2015

kieso wrote: »

"everything that has a beginning has an end."

- The Oracle

Problem with that is it had felt like the game was only just beginning, that some things had finally been fixed and adjusments coming in which were making the game into something like the state it should have been at launch.

kieso · January 2015

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

"everything that has a beginning has an end."

- The Oracle

Problem with that is it had felt like the game was only just beginning, that some things had finally been fixed and adjusments coming in which were making the game into something like the state it should have been at launch.

Very true.. now I'm sad

Heruthema · January 2015

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

"everything that has a beginning has an end."

- The Oracle

Problem with that is it had felt like the game was only just beginning, that some things had finally been fixed and adjusments coming in which were making the game into something like the state it should have been at launch.

Again, how do you know it is not going to get better and be the best game ever? The new CP system has not even been released. No one has played it yet. The point is You Do Not Know. No One Does.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

Heruthema wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

I agree with the OP about quitting if it is no longer Fun. That is what I do not get about some of the players. They treat this like it is Real Life. It is no longer a Game. It is the end of the world when any change happens.
It really does come down to One thing only, IS IT FUN ANYMORE?
If it is no longer fun, then leave. I will when and if I ever get to that point. But it will never be Life and Death like it seems it is to some. There will always be the next great game out there and it too will lose its luster after a while.

The point of people leaving now is that MMOs take time and commitment.
A core aspect of the game is progression of your character, getting more gear, skill points and soon champion points.
It all has meaning when each gain will have a lasting effect on your future fun.

However, you know that the game will become bad due to its model switch. You already know that you will, by design, stop having fun at a point much closer than anticipated.

So the logical move is to reduce your losses and take the time you would have spent in ESO and spend it on things you find equaly fun but have a future.

Then your option is to quit. I will when it is no longer fun. This is not an investment for me. It is entertainment, period. When it is no longer entertaining then I will move on. While it is I will put my heart and soul into it and have a blast.
You are never going to find the perfect game. Eventually every one of them will disappoint you somehow. To me the logical move as you put it, is to work with the game, try the new stuff, advance my characters and abilities, try new things, and when and if I decide it has lost its appeal, move on.
The new system has not even come out yet and your bailing because you THINK it is going to fail. You do not know that for sure.
At this point you could play for free after March and see. You have nothing to lose.

I am personally going to stay a bit longer because this is the occasion to try the game with my buddies that didn't play much at launch and show them "This is what you missed, and now it's going away".
I'm going to have fun with it for a while,but I'll do it with a weight on my heart.

Because we KNOW it is going to fail.
If such a change wasn't a guaranteed failure, then one of the countless previous MMOs would have succeeded.
As of this date, none did. All have gone down the p2w drain and all have lost any intrinsic qualities it may have had.
I'm not interested in playing undead games.

Forfeiting the subscription model for a quick cash grab is a bad business decision. It's the reason why we hat the latest economic crash, because people focused on the short term rather than on the long term.

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

"everything that has a beginning has an end."

- The Oracle

Problem with that is it had felt like the game was only just beginning, that some things had finally been fixed and adjusments coming in which were making the game into something like the state it should have been at launch.

Funny thing, I had the same feeling. I was seeing 1.6 streams and the more we learned about it, the more it seemed like this was a turning point.

I even checked out steam stats and since the last 30 days, around the last ESO Live of 2014 with all 1.6 layed out, we had a large increase in active players. The first increase in months.

2015 was suposed to be a great year for ESO, instead it's going to be the begining of the end. Maybe even the end, as full on f2p may come for christmas alongside an "all DLC bundle".

Heruthema · January 2015

No you DO NOT KNOW. You can assume based on previous experience, but you do not know. It all depends on decisions that may or may not have already been or will be made in the future.
Again at this point no one has anything to lose other than some time. This may all go downhill and then again it could end up being the exception. But NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.

SantieClaws · January 2015

I do not know the future but history and business tends to move in patterns and the pattern I saw in LOTRO was one I am very concerned about seeing happen again. It is experience that makes me very cautious and concerned. I am not coming from nothing on this one. Anyway I'll wait and see what they say on Reddit and see if they address any of my concerns - I'll take whatever they say with a fair pinch of salt anyway.

jkirchner71ub17_ESO2 · January 2015

Heruthema wrote: »

No you DO NOT KNOW. You can assume based on previous experience, but you do not know. It all depends on decisions that may or may not have already been or will be made in the future.
Again at this point no one has anything to lose other than some time. This may all go downhill and then again it could end up being the exception. But NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.

Yes true NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE but the history of MMOs is on the side of the naysayers and they have EVERY right to be leery of the future of this game. Having been here since closed beta I can speak to what I have seen and it is a lot of empty promises, speculation and NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE how this game will pan out at launch - now WE KNOW. I am sticking around but my confidence and trust in Zenimax took a MAJOR hit.

Btw OP F2P did kill LoTRO along with all those lifetime subs they gave out. One of the poorest business decision Turbine EVER made because once that cash cow of lifetime subs ran dry we ended up with . . .

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

Heruthema wrote: »

No you DO NOT KNOW. You can assume based on previous experience, but you do not know. It all depends on decisions that may or may not have already been or will be made in the future.
Again at this point no one has anything to lose other than some time. This may all go downhill and then again it could end up being the exception. But NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.

This is just wishful thinking. Of course it won't be the exception.

The hard facts are that:
- No other games avoided the pitfalls of f2p
- ZOS is not trustworthy

Even ignoring the history of the MMO genre and the history of pre-launch promises made by ZOS, ESO still is doomed to failure.

Think about what they are offering now: mainly DLCs.
ZOS has shown they are incapable of producing content fast enough. Even if we assume they've been holding off on us and kept designing and finishing those 6 shown DLCs, that's only 6 in 8-12 months.
They can't with only 6-10 DLCs a year replace the subscription revenue. And with this little DLCs, ESO+ membership isn't worth it either.
They will have to go the cash shop route and whatever pitfalls that means.

In conjunction, as their goals shift away from producing quality content to keep player retention up, their objectives will become to increase the frequency of content up for sales.
This means that whatever content they design, speed is more important than anything else, and quality will have to nose dive seing their current velocity.
We'll also see all the cheap tricks like high end gear only available in DLC trials, new skill lines as DLCs, perhaps even some DLC PvP arenas because Cyrodill doesn't bring in money.

These are just the logical conclusions of abandonning the stable revenue of subscriptions and switching to cash shop/DLC models.
And if we stop relying on reasoning only and switch our memories back on, this is confirmed by the entire history of the MMO genre.
We can be certain that ESO in one year will be a worse game than it is now.

What we aren't sure of is if their cash grab will be succesful or not.
I personally hope it is because at least, they won't have ruined their game for nothing.
But I don't think they'll manage more than 3M sales, which is barely more than a year of subscription revenue.
That, time will tell.

Kaizxen · January 2015

For me, it's not a question of F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.

It's a question of how the monetization is handled. I will not support a company that blatantly allows their cash shop (and by extension, corporate greed) to overshadow the actual game.

While certain payment models are notoriously linked to cash shop money grabs, they are not one and the same thing. Companies can handle cash shops well or poorly, regardless of the payment model they're using.

Time will tell which category ZOS falls into. Unfortunately, once the cash shop door is open, the odds are stacked against them.

Miszou · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.

Err, no. Player burnout is quite real.

Funkopotamus · January 2015

kieso wrote: »

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

"everything that has a beginning has an end."

- The Oracle

Problem with that is it had felt like the game was only just beginning, that some things had finally been fixed and adjusments coming in which were making the game into something like the state it should have been at launch.

Very true.. now I'm sad

^^ This why a lot of players feel like they have been "USED" to pay for a console beta..

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

Miszou wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.

Err, no. Player burnout is quite real.

The answer is in the piece you quoted. Burn out only exists for bad games.
Good games keep on getting played forever.
And good MMOs keep on growing forever.

Chalk it up on player retention, the core objective of susbcription, rather than increased turn over, the core objective of f2p.

grimjim398 · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

I agree with the OP about quitting if it is no longer Fun. That is what I do not get about some of the players. They treat this like it is Real Life. It is no longer a Game. It is the end of the world when any change happens.
It really does come down to One thing only, IS IT FUN ANYMORE?
If it is no longer fun, then leave. I will when and if I ever get to that point. But it will never be Life and Death like it seems it is to some. There will always be the next great game out there and it too will lose its luster after a while.

The point of people leaving now is that MMOs take time and commitment.
A core aspect of the game is progression of your character, getting more gear, skill points and soon champion points.
It all has meaning when each gain will have a lasting effect on your future fun.

However, you know that the game will become bad due to its model switch. You already know that you will, by design, stop having fun at a point much closer than anticipated.

So the logical move is to reduce your losses and take the time you would have spent in ESO and spend it on things you find equaly fun but have a future.

This. If my only choice now is to go back to Eve and play that for another 5 years or move to a game with a non-subscription model, I don't see why I should stay in ESO, since I've already played most of it. I have come to understand that the developer has no clue about the future, and I can easily choose another game that I have not played before. Or go back to single player games, of which there are a multitude. I don't have any loyalty to this community or to this game, not at this point. Once you feel screwed over you lose your taste for the people you blame for it. I've felt screwed over by lots of companies at one time or another and when I can I don't do business with them any more. Here is where someone will jump in to tell me I have no reason to feel screwed over but that kind of stuff is just too tired for words. Reasonable or not, this is the way I feel, and I'm moving on. As I said on another thread, I have no intention of going quietly since I paid for eleven more days of play; since I have no intention of logging into the game again for any reason other than to delete the remainder of my characters, then I'm going to have my fun on the forums.

Xsorus · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.

Err, no. Player burnout is quite real.

The answer is in the piece you quoted. Burn out only exists for bad games.
Good games keep on getting played forever.
And good MMOs keep on growing forever.

Chalk it up on player retention, the core objective of susbcription, rather than increased turn over, the core objective of f2p.

Explain DAOC to me then, I honestly consider it the best MMO of all time..but i still quit playing after a while simply because i've done every thing.

Also..I had my LOTRO subscription before it went f2p..I bought it mainly because I wanted a secondary MMO for when I was inbetween MMO's. Its no longer my secondary anymore, I use SWTOR as my secondary now.

Xsorus · January 2015

jkirchner71ub17_ESO2 wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

No you DO NOT KNOW. You can assume based on previous experience, but you do not know. It all depends on decisions that may or may not have already been or will be made in the future.
Again at this point no one has anything to lose other than some time. This may all go downhill and then again it could end up being the exception. But NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.

Yes true NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE but the history of MMOs is on the side of the naysayers and they have EVERY right to be leery of the future of this game. Having been here since closed beta I can speak to what I have seen and it is a lot of empty promises, speculation and NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE how this game will pan out at launch - now WE KNOW. I am sticking around but my confidence and trust in Zenimax took a MAJOR hit.

Btw OP F2P did kill LoTRO along with all those lifetime subs they gave out. One of the poorest business decision Turbine EVER made because once that cash cow of lifetime subs ran dry we ended up with . . .

I don't think you can say LOTRO died because of f2p or lifetimes.

They've released more expansions after f2p happen then they ever did, and i'm sure someone will pop in here and say.."Well Moria was the best expansion ever" even though I remember all the complaints about it being a boring ass expansion because you spent like 10 levels underground and it got drab.

Buck · January 2015

Funkopotamus wrote: »

^^ This why a lot of players feel like they have been "USED" to pay for a console beta..

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Player burn out is a myth. You do not get bored of good games.

Err, no. Player burnout is quite real.

The answer is in the piece you quoted. Burn out only exists for bad games.
Good games keep on getting played forever.
And good MMOs keep on growing forever.

Chalk it up on player retention, the core objective of susbcription, rather than increased turn over, the core objective of f2p.

Explain DAOC to me then, I honestly consider it the best MMO of all time..but i still quit playing after a while simply because i've done every thing.

Also..I had my LOTRO subscription before it went f2p..I bought it mainly because I wanted a secondary MMO for when I was inbetween MMO's. Its no longer my secondary anymore, I use SWTOR as my secondary now.

Because they fell behind and time made it less good.
I tried out DAOC at release, then 10 years afterwards and it hasn't aged well.
While I agree with you it was a revolutionary game in its time and has seminal lessons about game design, but if you've tried a more modern MMO it is very hard to get into it.
Also, the playerbase has shrunk by a lot, I do not think the experience is the same than at its prime when servers were full.
The devs just droped the ball.

Unrelated fun fact, despite it being everything I could want, I never played DAOC aside from beta. That game literaly killed my previous game as the servers were recycled from one to the other (T4C to Daoc by GOA in France) and at the time I was a kid that couldn't afford a sub.

On another hand, you have games nearly as old than managed to update themselves over the years to look and feel at place with the new times.
For example, Eve Online that is beautiful nowadays and has mostly updated mechanics.

For the lifetime sub, it was not related to f2p change. Lotro was one of the first, and at the time it was reasonable to still give the model a chance.
However, the three monthers trend was already in full swing and a lifetime sub was an extremly risky bet.
It just shows that you're a very easy going customer compared to the norm. As I said, you're a whale, part of the 0.22% that spend a lot on MMOs.
I'm not jusging,I'm barely better, as I pre ordered collector editions of AOC, STO and ESO. I'm just feeling it's about time we wise up.

What ZOS is doing here is neither fair nor smart.
They've lost trust from a good chunk of their most hardcore fans, went back on their word and for just a small quick buck.
You can't have f2p competing in overall profit with the subscription model.