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Zos - you need better lawyers.
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Nyghthowler✭✭✭✭✭
✭Take your own advice. Read the highlighted part. I'll even make it easy for you.
" change and update Content without notice to You."
I'm not defending their decision, but all this talk of refunds and lawyers is ridiculous.I'm not prejudiced; I hate everyone equally !3 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nyghthowler wrote: »As I posted in another thread, when you click the 'I Accept' you have signed a digital agreement which in other words is a CONTRACT.
In their ToS it states they have the right to make any changes, modifications, blah blah blah they feel necessary.
6. Availability of Services and Content; Game Maintenance, Patches, Updates; Termination of Services
ZeniMax does not guarantee that any Services will be available at all times, in all countries and/or geographic locations, at any given time, or that it will continue to offer any particular Services for any particular length of time. Except as prohibited by applicable law, ZeniMax reserves the right to change and update Content without notice to You. ZeniMax also reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Content, and to limit or block any request to acquire Content, including, but not limited to, Downloadable Content, for any reason.
The Terms of Service have a note near the top (and in another section...I think maybe 12?) that certain limitations do not apply to Australians or any other country where local law supercedes, but I'm too lazy to dig it out right now."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nyghthowler wrote: »As I posted in another thread, when you click the 'I Accept' you have signed a digital agreement which in other words is a CONTRACT.
In their ToS it states they have the right to make any changes, modifications, blah blah blah they feel necessary.
6. Availability of Services and Content; Game Maintenance, Patches, Updates; Termination of Services
ZeniMax does not guarantee that any Services will be available at all times, in all countries and/or geographic locations, at any given time, or that it will continue to offer any particular Services for any particular length of time. Except as prohibited by applicable law, ZeniMax reserves the right to change and update Content without notice to You. ZeniMax also reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Content, and to limit or block any request to acquire Content, including, but not limited to, Downloadable Content, for any reason.
The Terms of Service have a note near the top (and in another section...I think maybe 12?) that certain limitations do not apply to Australians or any other country where local law supercedes, but I'm too lazy to dig it out right now.
The ToS are also not entirely relevant to the OP's misguided attempt to claim that ZO is violating Australian law with their news post.
However, here is the part of the ToS you were referring to: "If any change is unacceptable to You, You may cancel Your subscription at any time, but ZeniMax will not refund any fees or prorate fees for any subscription. Depending on the country where You reside, including if You live in the EEA, Norway, Switzerland or Australia, the law may require different provisions to apply which will be specified when You subscribe and/or in the specific notice provided to You."
That doesn't actually mean that Australians can whine about any perceived wrong and receive refunds for their subscription fees. It just means that there are different standards in specific countries that are specified in notices for subscribers from those countries. Any Aussie players who have actually bothered to read/save those specifics would be able to share them.----
Murray?3 -
ashlee17✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »This is why people with no legal education shouldn't be discussing the law on the internet.
For once I couldn't agree with you more.
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Nyghthowler wrote: »As I posted in another thread, when you click the 'I Accept' you have signed a digital agreement which in other words is a CONTRACT.
In their ToS it states they have the right to make any changes, modifications, blah blah blah they feel necessary.
6. Availability of Services and Content; Game Maintenance, Patches, Updates; Termination of Services
ZeniMax does not guarantee that any Services will be available at all times, in all countries and/or geographic locations, at any given time, or that it will continue to offer any particular Services for any particular length of time. Except as prohibited by applicable law, ZeniMax reserves the right to change and update Content without notice to You. ZeniMax also reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Content, and to limit or block any request to acquire Content, including, but not limited to, Downloadable Content, for any reason.
The Terms of Service have a note near the top (and in another section...I think maybe 12?) that certain limitations do not apply to Australians or any other country where local law supercedes, but I'm too lazy to dig it out right now.
The ToS are also not entirely relevant to the OP's misguided attempt to claim that ZO is violating Australian law with their news post.
However, here is the part of the ToS you were referring to: "If any change is unacceptable to You, You may cancel Your subscription at any time, but ZeniMax will not refund any fees or prorate fees for any subscription. Depending on the country where You reside, including if You live in the EEA, Norway, Switzerland or Australia, the law may require different provisions to apply which will be specified when You subscribe and/or in the specific notice provided to You."
That doesn't actually mean that Australians can whine about any perceived wrong and receive refunds for their subscription fees. It just means that there are different standards in specific countries that are specified in notices for subscribers from those countries. Any Aussie players who have actually bothered to read/save those specifics would be able to share them.
Thank you for digging that up, I normally glossed it since it did not apply here."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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ashlee17✭✭✭✭
As the whole point of this thread states- Zos need better legal advice. For the very last time Zos should not advertise to Australians that have extra time on their subs after b2p goes live that they cannot acess refunds.
Edited by ashlee17 on January 24, 2015 3:26AM0 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
As the whole point of this thread states- for the very last time Zos should not advertise to Australians that have extra time on their subs after b2p goes live that they cannot acess refunds.
ZO isn't targeting Australians specifically on this site, and their ToS makes it quite clear that Australians are subject to additional consumer laws.
More importantly, though, those laws do not protect you to the degree you seem to think they do. You would need to demonstrate that the payment transition is somehow creating a flaw in the game that prevents you from playing it the way that you want to. That will be monumentally hard to do, as you will still have access to the entire game once the system switches over, and you've been given plenty of time to cancel your subscription.----
Murray?0 -
eisberg✭✭✭https://www.moneysmart.gov.au/media/347756/kit-acl-factsheet-shopping-rights.pdfI bought it online.
If you bought from an Australian business online,
you have the same refund rights as when buying from
a shop – unless you bought the item from a private seller.
ZOS isn't an Australian Online Business. They don't even charge in the currency of Australia.2 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Yep prohibited by australian law. But so is telling Australians they cannot get a refund. As I said at the start - the issue here is Zos advertising that customers in Australia cannot have accesses to a refund.
Please read before posting. T&C don't give them the right to mislead consumers on their rights.
ZO is telling all customers that they don't have the right to a refund on a paid subscription service on their international (but US-based) site. The Australian law you mentioned does not apply to anything in that scenario.
This is why people with no legal education shouldn't be discussing the law on the internet.
You should take your own advice; you're not a lawyer.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT2 -
raglau✭✭✭✭✭I'm reasonably sure most European countries have laws protecting the customer from such actions. I know mine does, if the product significantly differs from what was offered and I was misled into buying, I'm entitled to a refund no matter what the company policy says.
Correct. I am running a UK action group against Frontier Developments because they shafted people on Elite Dangerous and they are now backing down just as we are ramping up court action. We had a lawyer working with us all the way and there are multiple risks for a seller in this scenario. Also since June 13th 2014 there are specific protections for digital content specifically including those that go behind paywalls (essentially this has to be documented at purchase time).
In the EU ZOS will find their course tricky (maybe not impossible, I have not looked at ESO in detail) but generally speaking T&C are meaningless in the EU as the law is so strict anyway that there are very limited cases a T&C can have any effect.Edited by raglau on January 24, 2015 4:58AM2 -
eisberg✭✭✭I'm reasonably sure most European countries have laws protecting the customer from such actions. I know mine does, if the product significantly differs from what was offered and I was misled into buying, I'm entitled to a refund no matter what the company policy says.
Correct. I am running a UK action group against Frontier Developments because they shafted people on Elite Dangerous and they are now backing down. We had a lawyer working with us all the way and there are multiple risks for a seller in this scenario. Also since June 13th 2014 there are specific protections for digital content specifically including those that go behind paywalls.
In the EU ZOS will find their course tricky (maybe not impossible, I have not looked at ESO in detail) but generally speaking TOC are meaningless in the EU as the law is so strict anyway.
What is the problem with Elite Dangerous?
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raglau✭✭✭✭✭I'm reasonably sure most European countries have laws protecting the customer from such actions. I know mine does, if the product significantly differs from what was offered and I was misled into buying, I'm entitled to a refund no matter what the company policy says.
Correct. I am running a UK action group against Frontier Developments because they shafted people on Elite Dangerous and they are now backing down. We had a lawyer working with us all the way and there are multiple risks for a seller in this scenario. Also since June 13th 2014 there are specific protections for digital content specifically including those that go behind paywalls.
In the EU ZOS will find their course tricky (maybe not impossible, I have not looked at ESO in detail) but generally speaking TOC are meaningless in the EU as the law is so strict anyway.
What is the problem with Elite Dangerous?
If you backed it on promise of an offline mode and were affected by them removing that at the last minute, they were refusing refunds. Only a small number were affected but, if like me you have multiple residence, not all with Internet, it makes it unplayable with no Internet.
Its different to ESO in that Frontier actively pushed their game as not needing Net access, so a small number were actively misled.1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Worst case Scenario they would just pull out of Australia and ban you guys from logging in. In no world do you actually get a refund.Edited by timidobserver on January 24, 2015 5:10AMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)3 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭This is why you ALWAYS sub 1 month at a time. ALWAYS.
Yeah, mine lapsed for a day, so I won't get whatever stupid mount reward they give you that will almost certainly be worse than what can be bought for $8 in the cash shop.
And yeah, I paid $1 more per month to play the game.
But you people with your 6 month subs and stuff. *shakes head*.
Some people just have to learn the hard way.0 -
Vis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Spottswoode wrote: »
In fact, there are US laws that forbid US companies from breaking certain other countries' laws while operating in that country (i.e bribing officials, and staging a coup). Though, it usually only comes with a fine on the US side.Edited by Vis on January 24, 2015 6:22AMv14 Sorc Vae Exillis
v14 DK Costs
v14 NB 'Vis
v14 Temp Fiat Lux2 -
Vis✭✭✭✭✭
✭olemanwinter wrote: »This is why you ALWAYS sub 1 month at a time. ALWAYS.
Yeah, mine lapsed for a day, so I won't get whatever stupid mount reward they give you that will almost certainly be worse than what can be bought for $8 in the cash shop.
And yeah, I paid $1 more per month to play the game.
But you people with your 6 month subs and stuff. *shakes head*.
Some people just have to learn the hard way.
There is much wisdom there. I sadly keep believing too much in the devs.v14 Sorc Vae Exillis
v14 DK Costs
v14 NB 'Vis
v14 Temp Fiat Lux3 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Spottswoode wrote: »
In fact, there are US laws that forbid US companies from breaking certain other countries' laws while operating in that country (i.e bribing officials, and staging a coup). Though, it usually only comes with a fine on the US side.
What the op does not seem to understand is that ZoS is not operating inside Australia. ESO is sold online from a foreign website. Maybe the people who bought the product at a store location could try to make a case, but the ToS is clear and anyone who attempts to fight it would waste more money on lawyers than they would get in return. But hey op, if you want to sue, go ahead and try. No one is stopping you.1 -
Vis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Spottswoode wrote: »
In fact, there are US laws that forbid US companies from breaking certain other countries' laws while operating in that country (i.e bribing officials, and staging a coup). Though, it usually only comes with a fine on the US side.
What the op does not seem to understand is that ZoS is not operating inside Australia. ESO is sold online from a foreign website. Maybe the people who bought the product at a store location could try to make a case, but the ToS is clear and anyone who attempts to fight it would waste more money on lawyers than they would get in return. But hey op, if you want to sue, go ahead and try. No one is stopping you.
Don't sue. Just file a dispute with your cc and let their lawyers handle it (just be sure to be honest and accurate, and include evidence).v14 Sorc Vae Exillis
v14 DK Costs
v14 NB 'Vis
v14 Temp Fiat Lux1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Spottswoode wrote: »
In fact, there are US laws that forbid US companies from breaking certain other countries' laws while operating in that country (i.e bribing officials, and staging a coup). Though, it usually only comes with a fine on the US side.
What the op does not seem to understand is that ZoS is not operating inside Australia. ESO is sold online from a foreign website. Maybe the people who bought the product at a store location could try to make a case, but the ToS is clear and anyone who attempts to fight it would waste more money on lawyers than they would get in return. But hey op, if you want to sue, go ahead and try. No one is stopping you.
Don't sue. Just file a dispute with your cc and let their lawyers handle it (just be sure to be honest and accurate, and include evidence).
And then let us all know what happens.1 -
Vis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Spottswoode wrote: »
In fact, there are US laws that forbid US companies from breaking certain other countries' laws while operating in that country (i.e bribing officials, and staging a coup). Though, it usually only comes with a fine on the US side.
What the op does not seem to understand is that ZoS is not operating inside Australia. ESO is sold online from a foreign website. Maybe the people who bought the product at a store location could try to make a case, but the ToS is clear and anyone who attempts to fight it would waste more money on lawyers than they would get in return. But hey op, if you want to sue, go ahead and try. No one is stopping you.
Don't sue. Just file a dispute with your cc and let their lawyers handle it (just be sure to be honest and accurate, and include evidence).
And then let us all know what happens.
Well, if I win my dispute, can't let you know of until March. If I lose then I guess I am stuck here and will let you know. Either way, no harm no foul (on my side at least).v14 Sorc Vae Exillis
v14 DK Costs
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SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Spottswoode wrote: »
In fact, there are US laws that forbid US companies from breaking certain other countries' laws while operating in that country (i.e bribing officials, and staging a coup). Though, it usually only comes with a fine on the US side.
What the op does not seem to understand is that ZoS is not operating inside Australia. ESO is sold online from a foreign website. Maybe the people who bought the product at a store location could try to make a case, but the ToS is clear and anyone who attempts to fight it would waste more money on lawyers than they would get in return. But hey op, if you want to sue, go ahead and try. No one is stopping you.
Don't sue. Just file a dispute with your cc and let their lawyers handle it (just be sure to be honest and accurate, and include evidence).
And then let us all know what happens.
Well, if I win my dispute, can't let you know of until March. If I lose then I guess I am stuck here and will let you know. Either way, no harm no foul (on my side at least).
I wonder how many claims they get everyday.1 -
Vis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Spottswoode wrote: »
In fact, there are US laws that forbid US companies from breaking certain other countries' laws while operating in that country (i.e bribing officials, and staging a coup). Though, it usually only comes with a fine on the US side.
What the op does not seem to understand is that ZoS is not operating inside Australia. ESO is sold online from a foreign website. Maybe the people who bought the product at a store location could try to make a case, but the ToS is clear and anyone who attempts to fight it would waste more money on lawyers than they would get in return. But hey op, if you want to sue, go ahead and try. No one is stopping you.
Don't sue. Just file a dispute with your cc and let their lawyers handle it (just be sure to be honest and accurate, and include evidence).
And then let us all know what happens.
Well, if I win my dispute, can't let you know of until March. If I lose then I guess I am stuck here and will let you know. Either way, no harm no foul (on my side at least).
I wonder how many claims they get everyday.
Hahaha, well said. I do too.Edited by Vis on January 24, 2015 7:31AMv14 Sorc Vae Exillis
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Wolfshead✭✭✭✭
That's true, and partially caused by our own unwillingness to fight for better services. Malfunction is considered normal in this industry. If I bought a vacuum cleaner that didn't work when I got home, I'd return it immediately. If it happens with a video game, I just wait until the servers get fixed... in a week or so... maybe.I'm reasonably sure most European countries have laws protecting the customer from such actions. I know mine does, if the product significantly differs from what was offered and I was misled into buying, I'm entitled to a refund no matter what the company policy says.
Mine too. They do seem to have problems applying these laws to games and online services though.
Anyway, while demanding refund for time already played since launch is totally unreasonable, a refund for days left on your account after ESO goes B2P is definitely justified.
True but that don't apply here if you have not got the info in time which this case we have the are 53 days until it trun to Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited which is my country way pass mini requirement you need to info your customer about any chance to service of your game if i reminder it is 14 day mini requirement.
And we have got this info 53 days before anything change will be so i think the no customer law in any country can do anything about and honest why are people so damn upset about get few $$ back so what if you don't like play WoW after you pay a 6 month subscribe fee you go threaten Blizzard to pay back your money or else you go to drag to court it is basically samething you are ask about here.Edited by Wolfshead on January 24, 2015 7:47AMIf you find yourself alone, riding in green fields with the sun on your face, do not be troubled; for you are in Elysium, and you're already deadWhat we do in life, echoes in eternity0 -
Brittany_Joy✭✭✭✭@Ashlee17, what about Trade Agreements? I am not sure but I think Trade Agreements reduce restrictions and eliminate barriers to make trade between countries less difficult.0 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Spottswoode wrote: »
In fact, there are US laws that forbid US companies from breaking certain other countries' laws while operating in that country (i.e bribing officials, and staging a coup). Though, it usually only comes with a fine on the US side.
What the op does not seem to understand is that ZoS is not operating inside Australia. ESO is sold online from a foreign website. Maybe the people who bought the product at a store location could try to make a case, but the ToS is clear and anyone who attempts to fight it would waste more money on lawyers than they would get in return. But hey op, if you want to sue, go ahead and try. No one is stopping you.
Don't sue. Just file a dispute with your cc and let their lawyers handle it (just be sure to be honest and accurate, and include evidence).
Don't get mixed up on the threads here, champ.
In this thread, the OP is claiming that ZO is breaking Australian laws regarding statements about refunds. That's not actually basis for a refund or chargeback. It's only basis (well, it isn't, but just for the sake of argument) for filing a case against ZO for breaking that law.----
Murray?1 -
cesmode✭✭✭This is a ridiculous thread. You purchased the game, played for months...theres no way you can expect a refund under any circumstances.
Unless Im hazy about your laws, its like buying a car, driving it for a few months and returning it to the dealer saying "eh, dont want it...refund plz.".
I cant believe this is even a topic.
Seriously...people are going to nit pick the hell out of everything just because this announcement irked them a little. Give ZOS a break.
I hated the direction Arenanet went with GW2 and Living Story. I left, (and left the forums). Do the same if youre upset.
Edited by cesmode on January 24, 2015 1:21PM4
