Issue with the snipe ability isn't the ability alone. It's a synergy of stealth, range, animation canceling, travel time to target, heal debuff, and homing that lead to it being one of the best single target dps tools in PVP, even better 5 hand the crit generating destro staff super builds. By the time your first shot hits someone the second and third are in the air. This would not be that bad if the stun from stealth didn't have you locked down or the sniper didn't already go back into stealth. I'very seen a lot of requests to nerf it, here and on the forums, but I can't see reducing the damage or abilities making it still viable. Instead, I recommend reducing some of the synergy with other mechanics. This could be done by applying one of the following:

- Make enemies visible when shooting
- Remove the stealth stun for just the snipe ability
- reduce or set in the inability to queue multiple snipes
- allow arrows a chance to miss if a target moves out of line of sight. It doesn't need to be a 100%
- keep enemies in combat and visible for a short time after taking a shot, unless they choose a weaker morph of an ability.

Doing just one of these would probably reduce a lot of folks frustration with bow users while still making snipe and other now abilities good antisiege and back lines dps support

DDuke wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

Snipe takes skill and is defs not OP - Any bow user on the forums.

Skill=hold block & spam heal/dmg shield button - Anyone else in the forums

I'm going to get LOLs for this from the flapflap DKs & other magicka builds, but playing a stealth focused character actually takes a lot more skill than playing one of those "lolol I tank 20 people and can't die" builds.

Magicka Nightblade here. Very stealth focused. Stamina Nightblades are not stealth focused, they are run away focused.

Most of them are, sadly.

Personally, I try not to run away unless there's a whole train coming at me.

The reason most stamina builds are more run away focused is that there are no tools present for getting through the dmg shield+heal & permablock (and scales) that are present everywhere.

Maybe 1.6 & Champion System will change balance for the better, but based on what we've heard of it, I'll remain pessimistic about that for now.

NO build is currently able to burn down shield+perma block players atm (because def abilities are cheaper and of higher values than dmg abilities). That you expect stamina builds to perform a task that unable to be accomplished at all is an error on your side.

The balance is terrible atm but it is no longer a question of dmg but of making the magica utility usable (and sustainable) for stamina builds.
Edit: So that nobody can kill anyone at all. forgot to add that.

i get it.. archers hit from a distance. They must exist in the game. I say go for it.
buuuut... riding my way in cyro for 4 mins to help my team then ganged by an invisible guy NOWHERE to be seen instakilled by 3-4 snipes kinda loses the fun for me. All i want is a chance to fight him. Give him a MISS chance depending the distance and my gear and nerf his damage. They are plenty of cc, they are abilities to get away from me fast, i can find my way to get closer but do not make it unfair. Keep archers in the game but if they want to kill someone like that they need to have SKILLS.

DDuke wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

Snipe takes skill and is defs not OP - Any bow user on the forums.

Skill=hold block & spam heal/dmg shield button - Anyone else in the forums

I'm going to get LOLs for this from the flapflap DKs & other magicka builds, but playing a stealth focused character actually takes a lot more skill than playing one of those "lolol I tank 20 people and can't die" builds.

There's several reasons for that:

• You are squishier and can actually die, which means you have to time dodge rolls perfectly & have a good reaction time.
• To actually get kills (unless playing with 12 other archers), you don't spam snipe. Spamming snipe gets you no kills (unless opponent is a potato). There are ways of "one shotting" (read: getting past eternal block+dmg shield/heal) people, while spamming Snipe takes a minimum of 3-4 seconds to kill someone at full health.
• You need situational awareness as a stealthy character, you cannot rush in & expect to kill the whole enemy raid. You have to actually take your targets 1 by 1 and relocate yourself when you draw attention, or risk dying.
• One missed button press or a stroke of bad luck likely means your death, so there is no room for mistakes.

Yep, it takes a lot of skill pew-pewing distant low health targets from stealth. Don't strain your shoulder patting yourself on the back.

Bow takes zero skill. It's by far the worst weapon line for anyone to even attempt and say it takes skill. Furthest range, significant damage, heal debuffs and interrupts.

Really?
I'd like to see a 1vX or 1v1 (against good players) clip from you (or anyone else) utilizing bow, if it takes no skill as you say.
Since it's so "op" and takes no skill, that should be easy, right?

I do have clips. Go back to my NB I stopped using because bow would kill players in 2 shots maybe 3 if they had a bit more health.

Bow is incredibly easy to use. The only time it ever takes any "skill" if you can even say that is timing in between a DKs scales. Otherwise there is ZERO skill involved when sniping a player down from 30+m.

Please, link some of them
I'm really curious how you kill decent players by spamming snipe.

What I'd especially like to see is a 1v1 fight against a magicka build with 3k+ health, that'd be really fun to watch, or a 1vX situation.

Sure, you can kill players in 2-3 shots and it doesn't require much skill (just the correct rotation), which I'd like to see changed also. But what follows does require skill: restealthing, avoiding detection, killing the next target or escaping (especially if there is someone using stealth detection potions).

As an archer, if you fail to time one dodge roll correctly, you are pretty much dead.

Also, you need to perform & know a lot of tricks if you truly want to be a good bow user (or stealth focused character in general). There's multiple regarding restealthing, dodge roll, skill rotations, gear etc that not many people know.

And this, in my opinion, takes far more skill than holding down right mouse button & rolling your face on keyboard (99% of magicka build "pros") while tanking 20 people, and eventually killing them if they have no healer.

What's cute is I never said snipe .. I said shots. You know the basic snipe snipe venom arrow spam. Of all people you should know this. You taught many how to do it

DDuke wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

Snipe takes skill and is defs not OP - Any bow user on the forums.

Skill=hold block & spam heal/dmg shield button - Anyone else in the forums

I'm going to get LOLs for this from the flapflap DKs & other magicka builds, but playing a stealth focused character actually takes a lot more skill than playing one of those "lolol I tank 20 people and can't die" builds.

There's several reasons for that:

• You are squishier and can actually die, which means you have to time dodge rolls perfectly & have a good reaction time.
• To actually get kills (unless playing with 12 other archers), you don't spam snipe. Spamming snipe gets you no kills (unless opponent is a potato). There are ways of "one shotting" (read: getting past eternal block+dmg shield/heal) people, while spamming Snipe takes a minimum of 3-4 seconds to kill someone at full health.
• You need situational awareness as a stealthy character, you cannot rush in & expect to kill the whole enemy raid. You have to actually take your targets 1 by 1 and relocate yourself when you draw attention, or risk dying.
• One missed button press or a stroke of bad luck likely means your death, so there is no room for mistakes.

Yep, it takes a lot of skill pew-pewing distant low health targets from stealth. Don't strain your shoulder patting yourself on the back.

Bow takes zero skill. It's by far the worst weapon line for anyone to even attempt and say it takes skill. Furthest range, significant damage, heal debuffs and interrupts.

Really?
I'd like to see a 1vX or 1v1 (against good players) clip from you (or anyone else) utilizing bow, if it takes no skill as you say.
Since it's so "op" and takes no skill, that should be easy, right?

I do have clips. Go back to my NB I stopped using because bow would kill players in 2 shots maybe 3 if they had a bit more health.

Bow is incredibly easy to use. The only time it ever takes any "skill" if you can even say that is timing in between a DKs scales. Otherwise there is ZERO skill involved when sniping a player down from 30+m.

Please, link some of them
I'm really curious how you kill decent players by spamming snipe.

What I'd especially like to see is a 1v1 fight against a magicka build with 3k+ health, that'd be really fun to watch, or a 1vX situation.

Sure, you can kill players in 2-3 shots and it doesn't require much skill (just the correct rotation), which I'd like to see changed also. But what follows does require skill: restealthing, avoiding detection, killing the next target or escaping (especially if there is someone using stealth detection potions).

As an archer, if you fail to time one dodge roll correctly, you are pretty much dead.

Also, you need to perform & know a lot of tricks if you truly want to be a good bow user (or stealth focused character in general). There's multiple regarding restealthing, dodge roll, skill rotations, gear etc that not many people know.

And this, in my opinion, takes far more skill than holding down right mouse button & rolling your face on keyboard (99% of magicka build "pros") while tanking 20 people, and eventually killing them if they have no healer.

What's cute is I never said snipe .. I said shots. You know the basic snipe snipe venom arrow spam. Of all people you should know this. You taught many how to do it

Incapacitate->( start at max. range for max. travel time)Lethal Arrow->Heavy Attack+Poison Injection

There, now everyone can do it (used to deal more damage pre-1.5 btw) :P

Seriously though, I'd even be fine if Snipe (and some other skills) became "skillshot" type abilities requiring aiming (FPS style probably wouldn't work...), since that is the part that requires the least skill in bow playstyle.

But saying the rest requires no skill is ludicrous tbh, considering there are builds that pretty much require you to just hold right mouse button & spam skills (no reactions needed, no situational awareness required, just spam spam spam).

that wont help anything as aiming from safty 40m away eventually stealthed as well is not that difficult...

murtugo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

Snipe takes skill and is defs not OP - Any bow user on the forums.

Skill=hold block & spam heal/dmg shield button - Anyone else in the forums

I'm going to get LOLs for this from the flapflap DKs & other magicka builds, but playing a stealth focused character actually takes a lot more skill than playing one of those "lolol I tank 20 people and can't die" builds.

There's several reasons for that:

• You are squishier and can actually die, which means you have to time dodge rolls perfectly & have a good reaction time.
• To actually get kills (unless playing with 12 other archers), you don't spam snipe. Spamming snipe gets you no kills (unless opponent is a potato). There are ways of "one shotting" (read: getting past eternal block+dmg shield/heal) people, while spamming Snipe takes a minimum of 3-4 seconds to kill someone at full health.
• You need situational awareness as a stealthy character, you cannot rush in & expect to kill the whole enemy raid. You have to actually take your targets 1 by 1 and relocate yourself when you draw attention, or risk dying.
• One missed button press or a stroke of bad luck likely means your death, so there is no room for mistakes.

Yep, it takes a lot of skill pew-pewing distant low health targets from stealth. Don't strain your shoulder patting yourself on the back.

Bow takes zero skill. It's by far the worst weapon line for anyone to even attempt and say it takes skill. Furthest range, significant damage, heal debuffs and interrupts.

Really?
I'd like to see a 1vX or 1v1 (against good players) clip from you (or anyone else) utilizing bow, if it takes no skill as you say.
Since it's so "op" and takes no skill, that should be easy, right?

I don't think it can be done (1vX)... bow has high DPS but only for a single target. It has no decent AOE. Take away snipe then bow would be useless... I really don't understand why they would say it is OP.

venom arrow, light and heavy attack damage, stuns, heal debuffs, interupts. Bow does a lot more than just 1 high DPS attack.

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

Snipe takes skill and is defs not OP - Any bow user on the forums.

Skill=hold block & spam heal/dmg shield button - Anyone else in the forums

I'm going to get LOLs for this from the flapflap DKs & other magicka builds, but playing a stealth focused character actually takes a lot more skill than playing one of those "lolol I tank 20 people and can't die" builds.

There's several reasons for that:

• You are squishier and can actually die, which means you have to time dodge rolls perfectly & have a good reaction time.
• To actually get kills (unless playing with 12 other archers), you don't spam snipe. Spamming snipe gets you no kills (unless opponent is a potato). There are ways of "one shotting" (read: getting past eternal block+dmg shield/heal) people, while spamming Snipe takes a minimum of 3-4 seconds to kill someone at full health.
• You need situational awareness as a stealthy character, you cannot rush in & expect to kill the whole enemy raid. You have to actually take your targets 1 by 1 and relocate yourself when you draw attention, or risk dying.
• One missed button press or a stroke of bad luck likely means your death, so there is no room for mistakes.

Yep, it takes a lot of skill pew-pewing distant low health targets from stealth. Don't strain your shoulder patting yourself on the back.

Bow takes zero skill. It's by far the worst weapon line for anyone to even attempt and say it takes skill. Furthest range, significant damage, heal debuffs and interrupts.

Really?
I'd like to see a 1vX or 1v1 (against good players) clip from you (or anyone else) utilizing bow, if it takes no skill as you say.
Since it's so "op" and takes no skill, that should be easy, right?

I do have clips. Go back to my NB I stopped using because bow would kill players in 2 shots maybe 3 if they had a bit more health.

Bow is incredibly easy to use. The only time it ever takes any "skill" if you can even say that is timing in between a DKs scales. Otherwise there is ZERO skill involved when sniping a player down from 30+m.

See flappy flap.

Count 1001 1002

Push snipe

Snipe lands right as flappy flap ends.

So amaze

wow

such skill

wow

>_>

Mariiana wrote: »

Its not that i really think Snipe and its morphs are super OP or anything, but the fact that soooo many people are using it now really says something. id say nearly 50% or more of the times that i die is due to some sniper just sitting off the the side "ganking" me while im fighting someone else. Now don't get me wrong i think there is a place , even a need, to have "snipers" , Buuuut how snipe is now, it allows any terrible player ( by terrible i mean the players who cant design theyre own build to actually get into the action and not die instantly) the ability to just sit back and spam one button and get kills, which annoys me greatly.

-Rant over

The whole point of snipe is the long range damage.

Snipe gives a whopping (sarcasm) 7 more meters.

If all you can do is sit back and snipe then you're probably going to die fast if anyone attacks you due to lack of skill.

It's funny because many of the same points could be made about 1h and shield.

If all you can do is block and not much else, you'll survive longer, but if you're not very good you won't do much else.

Columba wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

Bow is so powerful it is almost required in every build. It should not be this way.

Except against DKs, shields, harness, dodge,block,..........and the 2 dozen other ways that decent players negate arrows. Simply listen for the snipe. Lol I only die once or so a night from snipe or it's variants. Very simple to avoid.

I wish snipe was OP so I could get more kills! ;(

morvegil wrote: »

Mariiana wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

I'm not going to comment about the whole balance issue and what should be changed, because at this point I don't know what the best solution is.

All I can say is, when I'm running around doing my thing and I notice someone sniping me, they automatically become priority #1 on the "MUST KILL RIGHT NOW" list, no matter what the situation, if I don't focus them and kill them, then I'll have a hard time.

Oh that also applies to any templars stacking dark flares on me (which is WAY worse than snipe, just not as popular because it's a class based skill).

Oh yea for sure man, the snipers do become top priority no doubt, but sometimes (usually lately) there's more than 1 , and with my temp not really having bursty damage singling out a target for a quick kill isnt so quick lol

Thats called strategy. Always have reserve army waiting until the fight starts. We often hide 2-5 snipers in a battle till about 30% in...so once the enemy is set in their "Spam block, etc" pattern they get thrown off and insta killed.

Snipers in real life do this, didnt you see American Sniper?

I have no problem with what you have described, that's how snipers should be used.
but still , i think ZoS has made it too easy for people to want to be snipers, like yesterday specifically we had a full raid against another full raid, with us pushing on Sej. but at any given time you could look up on the keep and see no less than 15+ snipers ( not included in the 24+ man raid we were fighting on the ground)....so like i said, they obviously make it too easy for people to want to be snipers.

There is only one truly competitive activity in this game.

Harvesting flowers in Hollow City.