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Do you support the Ult gain changes ( sorted by PvE / PvP )
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PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I dont support the changes as a PvE player.danno816_ESO wrote: »I think I would have preferred a max ult/sec cap instead of a complete rework, thus allowing the same mechanics to be in place, like crit, AoE, damage, blocking etc..
Something like 5-10 max per second would allow for varying builds and still make sure that some ultimates (veil, talons) can only go up once every x amount of time.
And this is the level of game mechanics knowledge representative of the people that support the change.
Talons ulti cost too much. Emp only talons every 10 sec. Nerf cost pls.
Also your statement is ridiculous. I'm sure both sides have plenty of people who don't know game mechanics.
I'm fully competent enough to take full advantage of current ultimate generation, and I still don't like it as for me it negates (pun) parts of the PVE endgame mechanics and teamwork requirements. It also forces me to play certain builds such as funnel health and/or healing springs for suppression to make room for more DKs simply because I can regen more ultimate even if the other builds do the same (or higher) DPS/utility and are more fun to play.
It's still not even on PTS yet, so my decision to like it is not even close to final. I still like the sound of it as I envision it to be. It will make life very hard for uncoordinated groups.
That is complete BS. The only place where that type of heavy support NB build is required may be SO and it is certainly not something that the game forces you but whatever guild group you may be in. I for one enjoy playing that type of build because it does make part of endgame mechanics and actually is teamwork.However I am not forced into it as a NB if you go on YT you will find just a couple of dozens of Stamina DW/Bow NB videos completing the damn thing with very good dps.
Another thing that you actually admitted. The best NB support build(70%crit funnel, resto) is actually very far bellow in the dps department(DW,Bow destro). Those builds will not suffer in the slightest while a type of high support medium dps build will be rendered completely useless.
The ultimate change will not bring more diversity it will just make the highest raw dps build always be the only option.
OK, I don't know how unclear I was.. obviously I know that it's not the highest DPS. What I'm saying is I'd much rather go crushing shock, or a higher DPS build, but to do speedruns that is not an option because that spot would be for a DK instead. So basically, if NB then funnel, otherwise relog to DK. That was what I was saying. Now luckily I don't actually have it that bad.. but if you want to compete at the absolute highest level it is still what it is.
In case that wasn't obvious the reason for funnel would be to eliminate one of the healer spots and at the same time keep full uptime on veils. Well, we actually did AA that way without any healers.. but yeah. My point still stands, this will force class diversity as you cannot have only one of the classes and still rely on their ultimate.
Yes. In 1.6 you will have to have more even out trial groups in term of classes.This may not be the best thing though since filling a group with all you need may be a bit harder and of course we may end up with the best being 5 Nb +5 Sorcs +2 temps for everything.. However in terms of build diversity It is pretty clear to me that now it is going to be ''best possible DPS for that class or gtfo"+ Templar heals.
Still want to be a viable funnel health based dps in 1.6? Good luck with that since you will be 300-600dps lower than DW or Bow and have exactly the same utility.Edited by PBpsy on January 19, 2015 5:49PMESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)3 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.danno816_ESO wrote: »I think I would have preferred a max ult/sec cap instead of a complete rework, thus allowing the same mechanics to be in place, like crit, AoE, damage, blocking etc..
Something like 5-10 max per second would allow for varying builds and still make sure that some ultimates (veil, talons) can only go up once every x amount of time.
And this is the level of game mechanics knowledge representative of the people that support the change.
Talons ulti cost too much. Emp only talons every 10 sec. Nerf cost pls.
Also your statement is ridiculous. I'm sure both sides have plenty of people who don't know game mechanics.
I'm fully competent enough to take full advantage of current ultimate generation, and I still don't like it as for me it negates (pun) parts of the PVE endgame mechanics and teamwork requirements. It also forces me to play certain builds such as funnel health and/or healing springs for suppression to make room for more DKs simply because I can regen more ultimate even if the other builds do the same (or higher) DPS/utility and are more fun to play.
It's still not even on PTS yet, so my decision to like it is not even close to final. I still like the sound of it as I envision it to be. It will make life very hard for uncoordinated groups.
That is complete BS. The only place where that type of heavy support NB build is required may be SO and it is certainly not something that the game forces you but whatever guild group you may be in. I for one enjoy playing that type of build because it does make part of endgame mechanics and actually is teamwork.However I am not forced into it as a NB if you go on YT you will find just a couple of dozens of Stamina DW/Bow NB videos completing the damn thing with very good dps.
Another thing that you actually admitted. The best NB support build(70%crit funnel, resto) is actually very far bellow in the dps department(DW,Bow destro). Those builds will not suffer in the slightest while a type of high support medium dps build will be rendered completely useless.
The ultimate change will not bring more diversity it will just make the highest raw dps build always be the only option.
OK, I don't know how unclear I was.. obviously I know that it's not the highest DPS. What I'm saying is I'd much rather go crushing shock, or a higher DPS build, but to do speedruns that is not an option because that spot would be for a DK instead. So basically, if NB then funnel, otherwise relog to DK. That was what I was saying. Now luckily I don't actually have it that bad.. but if you want to compete at the absolute highest level it is still what it is.
In case that wasn't obvious the reason for funnel would be to eliminate one of the healer spots and at the same time keep full uptime on veils. Well, we actually did AA that way without any healers.. but yeah. My point still stands, this will force class diversity as you cannot have only one of the classes and still rely on their ultimate.
Yes. In 1.6 you will have to have more even out trial groups in term of classes.This may not be the best thing though since filling a group with all you need may be a bit harder and of course we may end up with the best being 5 Nb +5 Sorcs +2 temps for everything.. However in terms of build diversity It is pretty clear to me that now it is going to be ''best possible DPS for that class or gtfo"+ Templar heals.
Still want to be a viable funnel health based dps in 1.6? Good luck with that since you will be 300-600dps lower than DW or Bow and have exactly the same utility.
This argument exactly^^^
Right now, I have three dps specs I can use on my NB. My favorite is my sap/fumnel build, because it uses class skills, and I've grown fond of it. However, if the build no longer is able to build ultimate as it currently does, it will become practically useless as a spec in endgame. The one and only saving grace it has, the only thing keeping it viable, is its generation rate. Once that is gone, I will be forced to pretty much never use it again. So instead of three viable builds, I will have two for endgame dps.
Now, sure, it will be great doing more dps than that build is capable of, but is limiting the diversity of builds a good thing?
The change definately feels like it's going to move the meta from 'sure your dps might not be the best, but the utility it provides makes it useable' to 'best dps or gtfo.'This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
asteldian✭✭✭✭I support the changes as a PvE playerEmma_Eunjung wrote: »People are getting way too hung up on HOW ultimate is generated and ignoring what's really important: how OFTEN do you get to use ultimates? I hate the new system not because of how it's implemented, but because ultimates are now temporally "hard-capped". You will never be able to use ultimates after 1.6 as fast as you can now, and that fact is going to totally screw up this game for a huge number of people, whether they know yet it or not.
What is the point of having ultimates, if you can only use them once in a blue moon? When I'm soloing brutal veteran group dungeons, my sorc does NOT have 60 seconds to wait for the next Negate... she will die, it's that simple. Once 1.6 goes live, the backlash over ultimate generation is going to be HUGE. The only way I think ZoS can fix it is to make ultimates much cheaper so you can use them every 20 seconds or so (like now).
The issue here is each persons idea of an ultimate. You feel they are pointless because you will only be able to use it once in a blue moon. To others that is exactly what they should be - a powerful ability you can use on occasion to turn the tide of a battle, not something so frequent that you may as well remove the name ultimate and have a 6th slot for anything.
I will see how it goes, I dislike the current way because it is too crit and DoT focused, the new way is a bit too communist, ideally a middle ground can be found3 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.Emma_Eunjung wrote: »People are getting way too hung up on HOW ultimate is generated and ignoring what's really important: how OFTEN do you get to use ultimates? I hate the new system not because of how it's implemented, but because ultimates are now temporally "hard-capped". You will never be able to use ultimates after 1.6 as fast as you can now, and that fact is going to totally screw up this game for a huge number of people, whether they know yet it or not.
What is the point of having ultimates, if you can only use them once in a blue moon? When I'm soloing brutal veteran group dungeons, my sorc does NOT have 60 seconds to wait for the next Negate... she will die, it's that simple. Once 1.6 goes live, the backlash over ultimate generation is going to be HUGE. The only way I think ZoS can fix it is to make ultimates much cheaper so you can use them every 20 seconds or so (like now).
The issue here is each persons idea of an ultimate. You feel they are pointless because you will only be able to use it once in a blue moon. To others that is exactly what they should be - a powerful ability you can use on occasion to turn the tide of a battle, not something so frequent that you may as well remove the name ultimate and have a 6th slot for anything.
I will see how it goes, I dislike the current way because it is too crit and DoT focused, the new way is a bit too communist, ideally a middle ground can be found
I am hoping that abilities and passives that currently generate ultimate will still be in effect. That way if you want a build that is specifically built for building ultimate, you can still do it. (Though, those builds may have severely limited viability in endgame, especially if current damage ratios remain similar.)This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭danno816_ESO wrote: »I think I would have preferred a max ult/sec cap instead of a complete rework, thus allowing the same mechanics to be in place, like crit, AoE, damage, blocking etc..
Something like 5-10 max per second would allow for varying builds and still make sure that some ultimates (veil, talons) can only go up once every x amount of time.
And this is the level of game mechanics knowledge representative of the people that support the change.
actually to be fair, at the time of this posting he didn't actually vote on this poll.
I meant Standard not Talons.
A bit disappointed no one here figured that out, perhaps that speaks to the level of intelligence of some people in this thread?Edited by danno8 on January 19, 2015 6:27PM2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I really dislike how there is no diversity or options in ultimate generation.
Check that: I have no desire to be a mangy, smelly mutt that howls whenever there is a full moon. Well, that's too bad and GTFO of our Sanctum raid bc/ we need veils and novas...
Edit: what am I supposed to check if I play and enjoy PvP and PvE? Is it really that unusual?Edited by Joy_Division on January 19, 2015 6:35PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.0 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I support the changes as a PvE playerdanno816_ESO wrote: »I think I would have preferred a max ult/sec cap instead of a complete rework, thus allowing the same mechanics to be in place, like crit, AoE, damage, blocking etc..
Something like 5-10 max per second would allow for varying builds and still make sure that some ultimates (veil, talons) can only go up once every x amount of time.
And this is the level of game mechanics knowledge representative of the people that support the change.
Talons ulti cost too much. Emp only talons every 10 sec. Nerf cost pls.
Also your statement is ridiculous. I'm sure both sides have plenty of people who don't know game mechanics.
I'm fully competent enough to take full advantage of current ultimate generation, and I still don't like it as for me it negates (pun) parts of the PVE endgame mechanics and teamwork requirements. It also forces me to play certain builds such as funnel health and/or healing springs for suppression to make room for more DKs simply because I can regen more ultimate even if the other builds do the same (or higher) DPS/utility and are more fun to play.
It's still not even on PTS yet, so my decision to like it is not even close to final. I still like the sound of it as I envision it to be. It will make life very hard for uncoordinated groups.
That is complete BS. The only place where that type of heavy support NB build is required may be SO and it is certainly not something that the game forces you but whatever guild group you may be in. I for one enjoy playing that type of build because it does make part of endgame mechanics and actually is teamwork.However I am not forced into it as a NB if you go on YT you will find just a couple of dozens of Stamina DW/Bow NB videos completing the damn thing with very good dps.
Another thing that you actually admitted. The best NB support build(70%crit funnel, resto) is actually very far bellow in the dps department(DW,Bow destro). Those builds will not suffer in the slightest while a type of high support medium dps build will be rendered completely useless.
The ultimate change will not bring more diversity it will just make the highest raw dps build always be the only option.
OK, I don't know how unclear I was.. obviously I know that it's not the highest DPS. What I'm saying is I'd much rather go crushing shock, or a higher DPS build, but to do speedruns that is not an option because that spot would be for a DK instead. So basically, if NB then funnel, otherwise relog to DK. That was what I was saying. Now luckily I don't actually have it that bad.. but if you want to compete at the absolute highest level it is still what it is.
In case that wasn't obvious the reason for funnel would be to eliminate one of the healer spots and at the same time keep full uptime on veils. Well, we actually did AA that way without any healers.. but yeah. My point still stands, this will force class diversity as you cannot have only one of the classes and still rely on their ultimate.
Yes. In 1.6 you will have to have more even out trial groups in term of classes.This may not be the best thing though since filling a group with all you need may be a bit harder and of course we may end up with the best being 5 Nb +5 Sorcs +2 temps for everything.. However in terms of build diversity It is pretty clear to me that now it is going to be ''best possible DPS for that class or gtfo"+ Templar heals.
Still want to be a viable funnel health based dps in 1.6? Good luck with that since you will be 300-600dps lower than DW or Bow and have exactly the same utility.
Hopefully not. Also FH will still allow you to cut away a healer while still doing massively more DPS than that healer would do. It's less damage for more utility. Good enough for me.0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »When I'm soloing brutal veteran group dungeons, my sorc does NOT have 60 seconds to wait for the next Negate... she will die, it's that simple. Once 1.6 goes live, the backlash over ultimate generation is going to be HUGE. The only way I think ZoS can fix it is to make ultimates much cheaper so you can use them every 20 seconds or so (like now).
Should we really be able to do this?
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Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.Joy_Division wrote: »I really dislike how there is no diversity or options in ultimate generation.
Check that: I have no desire to be a mangy, smelly mutt that howls whenever there is a full moon. Well, that's too bad and GTFO of our Sanctum raid bc/ we need veils and novas...
Well, why don't you raid with me? I'm running a medium damage build that can pretty much solo veil, so we have more slots open for variety!
Oh, wait, I won't be able to do that with 1.6....
Oh well, high dps build for me, and less class variety! Wheeee....This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.danno816_ESO wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »When I'm soloing brutal veteran group dungeons, my sorc does NOT have 60 seconds to wait for the next Negate... she will die, it's that simple. Once 1.6 goes live, the backlash over ultimate generation is going to be HUGE. The only way I think ZoS can fix it is to make ultimates much cheaper so you can use them every 20 seconds or so (like now).
Should we really be able to do this?
Why souldn't we?This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭danno816_ESO wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »When I'm soloing brutal veteran group dungeons, my sorc does NOT have 60 seconds to wait for the next Negate... she will die, it's that simple. Once 1.6 goes live, the backlash over ultimate generation is going to be HUGE. The only way I think ZoS can fix it is to make ultimates much cheaper so you can use them every 20 seconds or so (like now).
Should we really be able to do this?
Why souldn't we?
Mostly because it trivializes group content? Which lead to fewer groups doing stuff, which leads to ESO getting a reputation that it has no challenging content for groups, which leads to fewer subs, which leads to a dead game.
LotRO. Anyone else know what I mean?
Edited by danno8 on January 19, 2015 6:51PM2 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.danno816_ESO wrote: »danno816_ESO wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »When I'm soloing brutal veteran group dungeons, my sorc does NOT have 60 seconds to wait for the next Negate... she will die, it's that simple. Once 1.6 goes live, the backlash over ultimate generation is going to be HUGE. The only way I think ZoS can fix it is to make ultimates much cheaper so you can use them every 20 seconds or so (like now).
Should we really be able to do this?
Why souldn't we?
Mostly because it trivializes group content? Which lead to fewer groups doing stuff, which leads to ESO getting a reputation that it has no challenging content for groups, which leads to fewer subs, which leads to a dead game.
LotRO. Anyone else know what I mean?
Good point, and content is already regarded this way by some...
Still though, if I am to repeat that obnoxious phrase that everyone repeats ad nausium; if someone is capable of playing that way, and that's the way they want to play, should we really forbid that from happening?
(Not disagreeing with you, just debating.)This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭danno816_ESO wrote: »danno816_ESO wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »When I'm soloing brutal veteran group dungeons, my sorc does NOT have 60 seconds to wait for the next Negate... she will die, it's that simple. Once 1.6 goes live, the backlash over ultimate generation is going to be HUGE. The only way I think ZoS can fix it is to make ultimates much cheaper so you can use them every 20 seconds or so (like now).
Should we really be able to do this?
Why souldn't we?
Mostly because it trivializes group content? Which lead to fewer groups doing stuff, which leads to ESO getting a reputation that it has no challenging content for groups, which leads to fewer subs, which leads to a dead game.
LotRO. Anyone else know what I mean?
Good point, and content is already regarded this way by some...
Still though, if I am to repeat that obnoxious phrase that everyone repeats ad nausium; if someone is capable of playing that way, and that's the way they want to play, should we really forbid that from happening?
(Not disagreeing with you, just debating.)
"Play the way you want" was a phrase used to describe the fact that you could use any weapon or armour regardless of class, and viably play a tank, healer or DPS also regardless of the class you choose.
But some have latched on to that same phrase to mean absolutely anything they feel like applying it to.
I bet ZoS regrets ever using the phrase, and wishes they had used something a bit less open to interpretation.
Anyhow, yes I think we should forbid it from happening, because it is in the long-term interest of the game. No class/skill should ever become so powerful as to take all the effort and time of the developers in creating these instanced dungeons and turn it into a joke.
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Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.Let me summarize my biggest concern about the change.
Currently, if you have a correctly speced sap/funnel blade in your group, it is pretty much guarenteed that he will have veil ready when you need it. Solo. If you are in a solid group, other nightblades in the group have the option to run another ultimate.
If the NB sap/funnel build cannot gain ultimate in said fashion, this optional ultimate allowance for nightblades will be gone. It truly will be veil or gtfo.
Any complaints I have are not 'Waaaah! I won't be able to spam ultimates!' But instead, 'I'm deeply concerned about viable build diversity.'Edited by Shunravi on January 19, 2015 7:44PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.danno816_ESO wrote: »danno816_ESO wrote: »danno816_ESO wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »When I'm soloing brutal veteran group dungeons, my sorc does NOT have 60 seconds to wait for the next Negate... she will die, it's that simple. Once 1.6 goes live, the backlash over ultimate generation is going to be HUGE. The only way I think ZoS can fix it is to make ultimates much cheaper so you can use them every 20 seconds or so (like now).
Should we really be able to do this?
Why souldn't we?
Mostly because it trivializes group content? Which lead to fewer groups doing stuff, which leads to ESO getting a reputation that it has no challenging content for groups, which leads to fewer subs, which leads to a dead game.
LotRO. Anyone else know what I mean?
Good point, and content is already regarded this way by some...
Still though, if I am to repeat that obnoxious phrase that everyone repeats ad nausium; if someone is capable of playing that way, and that's the way they want to play, should we really forbid that from happening?
(Not disagreeing with you, just debating.)
"Play the way you want" was a phrase used to describe the fact that you could use any weapon or armour regardless of class, and viably play a tank, healer or DPS also regardless of the class you choose.
But some have latched on to that same phrase to mean absolutely anything they feel like applying it to.
I bet ZoS regrets ever using the phrase, and wishes they had used something a bit less open to interpretation.
Anyhow, yes I think we should forbid it from happening, because it is in the long-term interest of the game. No class/skill should ever become so powerful as to take all the effort and time of the developers in creating these instanced dungeons and turn it into a joke.
@yodased and I agree that given the chance to turn the guy who coined that phrase into a eunuch through blunt force to give a good swift kick to the guy who coined that phrase, we probably wouldn't think to hard about doing it.
As awesome and challenging as it is to solo instances, I honestly would not be opposed to your perspective. For the health of the game if nothing else.Edited by Shunravi on January 19, 2015 10:20PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭I support the changes as a PvE playerChange the ultimate generation is IMO an improvement for PVE, PVP, trials & undaunted quests.
For mainly 2 reasons:
1. Ultimates should be special & powerful and NOT spammable.
2. Ultimate generation was out of control, because too complicated to oversee for a dev all extreme ultimate generation possibilities of normal abilities and IMO at the end conflicting with creating a nice set of normal abilities that should give a wide variation of kinds of builds.
"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU1 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Let me summarize my biggest concern about the change.
Currently, if you have a correctly speced sap/funnel blade in your group, it is pretty much guarenteed that he will have veil ready when you need it. Solo. If you are in a solid group, other nightblades in the group have the option to run another ultimate.
If the NB sap/funnel build cannot gain ultimate in said fashion, this optional ultimate allowance for nightblades will be gone. It truly will be veil or gtfo.
Any complaints I have are not 'Waaaah! I won't be able to spam ultimates!' But not instead, 'I'm deeply concerned about viable build diversity.'
What you are describing shows that some ultimates are simply far better than others for certain situations. Or perhaps simply too powerful.
It also shows a lack of creativity in instance design when the only desirable ultimates are always the same ones. Standard, Veil, Nova, and Negate, the first 3 being extremely similar to each other (big damage + big defense) (lol I almost wrote Talons again instead of Standard!)
It would be more interesting if (just for example) some parts of some dungeons required the enemies to be stunned en masse (creating a need for Soul Shred/Tether) by making them invulnerable to damage while en route to an deadly objective.
In my mind Ultimates are/were suppose to be this games version of the "Oh s**t" button in other games, which are gated by cooldowns due to their strength. But ESO has vowed never to have CD's so it is gated by ultimate generation/ultimate cost.
Right now it is simply too easy to get ultimate in AoE situations.
For the record I have not voted on this poll simply because while I think Ultimate generation needs to be brought down in certain situations, the way they are doing it seems clunky and unintuitive.0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.Change the ultimate generation is IMO an improvement for PVE, PVP, trials & undaunted quests.
For mainly 2 reasons:
1. Ultimates should be special & powerful and NOT spammable.
2. Ultimate generation was out of control, because too complicated to oversee for a dev all extreme ultimate generation possibilities of normal abilities and IMO at the end conflicting with creating a nice set of normal abilities that should give a wide variation of kinds of builds.
Ok, a wide variation of builds....
How does me soloing veil, giving the option for other nightblades to use other ultimates, stunt build variation? We can do that currently, you know. I can get my veil down within the timers present in nearly all encounters. That frees up options for other builds. They don't need to use or worry about that ultimate. My generation build doesn't even do the highest dps.
With this change though, every nightblade will need veil. Every encounter will need more nightblades with veil to ensure its available. There will also be much more restricting margins for error.
I predict a significant increase of PUG failures too. And how will they balance instances, as everyone always says, in order to account for these changes? Change timers? Make things easier? What about elite guilds who are able to more easily field classes required for the instance? They will pull far ahaid in times, and everyone else will lag behind.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.danno816_ESO wrote: »Let me summarize my biggest concern about the change.
Currently, if you have a correctly speced sap/funnel blade in your group, it is pretty much guarenteed that he will have veil ready when you need it. Solo. If you are in a solid group, other nightblades in the group have the option to run another ultimate.
If the NB sap/funnel build cannot gain ultimate in said fashion, this optional ultimate allowance for nightblades will be gone. It truly will be veil or gtfo.
Any complaints I have are not 'Waaaah! I won't be able to spam ultimates!' But not instead, 'I'm deeply concerned about viable build diversity.'
What you are describing shows that some ultimates are simply far better than others for certain situations. Or perhaps simply too powerful.
It also shows a lack of creativity in instance design when the only desirable ultimates are always the same ones. Standard, Veil, Nova, and Negate, the first 3 being extremely similar to each other (big damage + big defense) (lol I almost wrote Talons again instead of Standard!)
It would be more interesting if (just for example) some parts of some dungeons required the enemies to be stunned en masse (creating a need for Soul Shred/Tether) by making them invulnerable to damage while en route to an deadly objective.
In my mind Ultimates are/were suppose to be this games version of the "Oh s**t" button in other games, which are gated by cooldowns due to their strength. But ESO has vowed never to have CD's so it is gated by ultimate generation/ultimate cost.
Right now it is simply too easy to get ultimate in AoE situations.
For the record I have not voted on this poll simply because while I think Ultimate generation needs to be brought down in certain situations, the way they are doing it seems clunky and unintuitive.
Yes, they are very powerful. That is not debatable. But that is also not my argument.
What I am saying is that currently, you only need one guy to handle that ultimate. Everyone else can use others. That's the current game design. You can currently have nightblades running other ultimates.
An aoe stun is exactly one of the primary functions of negate. Nightblades can use soul shred/tether in similar situations. Especially if you have that one guy who always has veil going....
This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Sasky✭✭✭I support the changes as a PvE playerWith this change though, every nightblade will need veil. Every encounter will need more nightblades with veil to ensure its available. There will also be much more restricting margins for error.
Only if the content is built to require a veil as frequently. That, in itself, is a bad design for diversity. If skill X has to be cast every Y seconds or the group won't finish, that limits diversity. However, that's because of the dungeon design itself, not the way ultimate is generated.
As far as rebalancing:
1) This means the current instances of the dungeons/trials isn't a good spot to see how ultimate fares. It'd have to be with the PTS-scaled instances, CP, new skills, and ultimate. (That's probably also why they haven't split part off and rolled out early.)
2) ZOS mentioned timing-based leaderboards are being replaced with a point system in 1.6.0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭danno816_ESO wrote: »Let me summarize my biggest concern about the change.
Currently, if you have a correctly speced sap/funnel blade in your group, it is pretty much guarenteed that he will have veil ready when you need it. Solo. If you are in a solid group, other nightblades in the group have the option to run another ultimate.
If the NB sap/funnel build cannot gain ultimate in said fashion, this optional ultimate allowance for nightblades will be gone. It truly will be veil or gtfo.
Any complaints I have are not 'Waaaah! I won't be able to spam ultimates!' But not instead, 'I'm deeply concerned about viable build diversity.'
What you are describing shows that some ultimates are simply far better than others for certain situations. Or perhaps simply too powerful.
It also shows a lack of creativity in instance design when the only desirable ultimates are always the same ones. Standard, Veil, Nova, and Negate, the first 3 being extremely similar to each other (big damage + big defense) (lol I almost wrote Talons again instead of Standard!)
It would be more interesting if (just for example) some parts of some dungeons required the enemies to be stunned en masse (creating a need for Soul Shred/Tether) by making them invulnerable to damage while en route to an deadly objective.
In my mind Ultimates are/were suppose to be this games version of the "Oh s**t" button in other games, which are gated by cooldowns due to their strength. But ESO has vowed never to have CD's so it is gated by ultimate generation/ultimate cost.
Right now it is simply too easy to get ultimate in AoE situations.
For the record I have not voted on this poll simply because while I think Ultimate generation needs to be brought down in certain situations, the way they are doing it seems clunky and unintuitive.
Yes, they are very powerful. That is not debatable. But that is also not my argument.
What I am saying is that currently, you only need one guy to handle that ultimate. Everyone else can use others. That's the current game design. You can currently have nightblades running other ultimates.
An aoe stun is exactly one of the primary functions of negate. Nightblades can use soul shred/tether in similar situations. Especially if you have that one guy who always has veil going....
Then as I said, ZoS has to do a better job at encouraging build diversity through mechanics.
I don't think however, it is wise to have out of control ultimate generation just so that NB's don't have to run Veil in dungeons.
I also don't think it's so bad if all NB's need Veil for dungeon encounters, as long as they are able to use other builds, like Stamina, and with varying skill lines and still be viable. It is just one skill after all.
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Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.With this change though, every nightblade will need veil. Every encounter will need more nightblades with veil to ensure its available. There will also be much more restricting margins for error.
Only if the content is built to require a veil as frequently. That, in itself, is a bad design for diversity. If skill X has to be cast every Y seconds or the group won't finish, that limits diversity. However, that's because of the dungeon design itself, not the way ultimate is generated.
As far as rebalancing:
1) This means the current instances of the dungeons/trials isn't a good spot to see how ultimate fares. It'd have to be with the PTS-scaled instances, CP, new skills, and ultimate. (That's probably also why they haven't split part off and rolled out early.)
2) ZOS mentioned timing-based leaderboards are being replaced with a point system in 1.6.
All very true. But are these instances really designed with veil in mind, or did we simply work out that veil, nova, and negate are just really efficient at what they do?
And how would you design an instance in which these ultimates are not the preferred option?
Or, how would you rebalance ultimates so one does not become over/underpowered (within the class) to make them a more viable option?
I can think of ways they can change things up, certainly. That's not really any part of the issue I'm on about.
Thing is, it could be argued that their current system was invisioned with any Ult being viable, we just became overly efficient at using certain ones in certain situations. And we adapted. Who's to say that this could not also be the case no matter what mechanics future instances may hold.
But all this is not an argument agaimst one guy being able to consistently use a vital ultamate (and potentially freeing others to use the ones they want to use instead). In fact I would say it supports it.
And would point based be any better than time based when it comes to descrepancies between what a pug can accomplish and what a guild can? Also, what would those points be based off of? Guilds have the ability to determine what would give more points per situation. Also, this system would potentially be even more restricting one margins of error.Edited by Shunravi on January 19, 2015 9:07PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.danno816_ESO wrote: »danno816_ESO wrote: »Let me summarize my biggest concern about the change.
Currently, if you have a correctly speced sap/funnel blade in your group, it is pretty much guarenteed that he will have veil ready when you need it. Solo. If you are in a solid group, other nightblades in the group have the option to run another ultimate.
If the NB sap/funnel build cannot gain ultimate in said fashion, this optional ultimate allowance for nightblades will be gone. It truly will be veil or gtfo.
Any complaints I have are not 'Waaaah! I won't be able to spam ultimates!' But not instead, 'I'm deeply concerned about viable build diversity.'
What you are describing shows that some ultimates are simply far better than others for certain situations. Or perhaps simply too powerful.
It also shows a lack of creativity in instance design when the only desirable ultimates are always the same ones. Standard, Veil, Nova, and Negate, the first 3 being extremely similar to each other (big damage + big defense) (lol I almost wrote Talons again instead of Standard!)
It would be more interesting if (just for example) some parts of some dungeons required the enemies to be stunned en masse (creating a need for Soul Shred/Tether) by making them invulnerable to damage while en route to an deadly objective.
In my mind Ultimates are/were suppose to be this games version of the "Oh s**t" button in other games, which are gated by cooldowns due to their strength. But ESO has vowed never to have CD's so it is gated by ultimate generation/ultimate cost.
Right now it is simply too easy to get ultimate in AoE situations.
For the record I have not voted on this poll simply because while I think Ultimate generation needs to be brought down in certain situations, the way they are doing it seems clunky and unintuitive.
Yes, they are very powerful. That is not debatable. But that is also not my argument.
What I am saying is that currently, you only need one guy to handle that ultimate. Everyone else can use others. That's the current game design. You can currently have nightblades running other ultimates.
An aoe stun is exactly one of the primary functions of negate. Nightblades can use soul shred/tether in similar situations. Especially if you have that one guy who always has veil going....
Then as I said, ZoS has to do a better job at encouraging build diversity through mechanics.
I don't think however, it is wise to have out of control ultimate generation just so that NB's don't have to run Veil in dungeons.
I also don't think it's so bad if all NB's need Veil for dungeon encounters, as long as they are able to use other builds, like Stamina, and with varying skill lines and still be viable. It is just one skill after all.
Again, very true. But I'm using nightblades, as it is both my main class, and it is a good class to illustrate my point. I'm not arguing for the sap/funnel build necessarily, but the concept of ult gain and where it is compared to where it 'may' be with 1.6.
And, yes, it is just one skill. Certain builds specialize in generating it on a frequent basis. Other builds don't.
Should all nightblades have to run veil? No, I don't think so, and I'm arguing for that case. At the moment, certain builds can gain it on a frequent enough basis that others don't have to have it as a focus.
I'm arguing that there are some cases with ' out of control ultimate generation', but that helps to ensure that an ultimate can be that 'big ability' in builds that don't generate as fast. Sure, they could rebalance things... But I don't like nerfs, and would prefer to see buffs in other aspects instead.
A 2h stamina build can use carve to gain ultimate fast, that's a designed ability that suggests to me that ultimate gain was indeed meant to be as fast as it is.Edited by Shunravi on January 19, 2015 9:34PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't know if I would go so far as saying I support the castration of said person, but a quick swift kick is definitely in order.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.0 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭i dont support the changes a PvP playerThe ulti génération need a change but... not that way. I agree actually bigs groups spamming aoes spam ults quite a bit. But next patch, no difference between skilled players and bad players. I'm solo player and when I'm fighting outnumbered, I got a better ult generation than my ennemies. Which is normal in my opinion. Next patch, 1 ult/minute. For everybody. It's just the lazy way.~retired~
EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad officer
Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
rekt you NB AD, AvA 32
Erondil Sorc AD, AvA 23
Denne the Banana Slayer NB EP, AvA 14
Darth Dennegor lv50 Stamina NB DC, AvA 19
Youtube Channel1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭im not sure..until i test it on release.I don't know if I would go so far as saying I support the castration of said person, but a quick swift kick is definitely in order.
Well, I do get extreme sometimes... Maybe a bit overboard there.
*#I do not advocate actual bodily harm to anyone's person, it is simply nice to express emotions in such extreme verbal ways. I hope I do not offend
#* Edited by Shunravi on January 19, 2015 10:29PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
spryler✭✭✭I support the changes as a PvE playertrimsic_ESO wrote: »im super surprised by the amount of pve players who like the change. The people i talk to in game agree with me...but the forums dont. i wonder where the disconnect is ?
The disconnect is quite easy to define: you are so confident in your reasoning that you don't hear the people who disagree with you, and when someone agrees with you, s/he reinforces your feeling that you are right with your reasoning.
This is right on the money 100%. I respect your opinion and your right to that opinion Joejudas, but this guy is right. You are not listening or not believing the people who support this change.
I mean heck, even after the poll results are in you still don't believe that a sizable percentage of PVE players agree with this change, do you?
Again, all respect to you and your opinion, but if you expect other people to be open-minded to your views/arguments, then you need to be open-minded also in return.1 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I dont support the changes as a PvE player.danno816_ESO wrote: »danno816_ESO wrote: »I think I would have preferred a max ult/sec cap instead of a complete rework, thus allowing the same mechanics to be in place, like crit, AoE, damage, blocking etc..
Something like 5-10 max per second would allow for varying builds and still make sure that some ultimates (veil, talons) can only go up once every x amount of time.
And this is the level of game mechanics knowledge representative of the people that support the change.
actually to be fair, at the time of this posting he didn't actually vote on this poll.
I meant Standard not Talons.
A bit disappointed no one here figured that out, perhaps that speaks to the level of intelligence of some people in this thread?
Nah . I had figured it out. It talks more about my willingness to knowingly be an <snip>hole around these parts.
danno816_ESO wrote: »I think I would have preferred a max ult/sec cap instead of a complete rework, thus allowing the same mechanics to be in place, like crit, AoE, damage, blocking etc..
Something like 5-10 max per second would allow for varying builds and still make sure that some ultimates (veil, talons) can only go up once every x amount of time.
And this is the level of game mechanics knowledge representative of the people that support the change.
Talons ulti cost too much. Emp only talons every 10 sec. Nerf cost pls.
Also your statement is ridiculous. I'm sure both sides have plenty of people who don't know game mechanics.
I'm fully competent enough to take full advantage of current ultimate generation, and I still don't like it as for me it negates (pun) parts of the PVE endgame mechanics and teamwork requirements. It also forces me to play certain builds such as funnel health and/or healing springs for suppression to make room for more DKs simply because I can regen more ultimate even if the other builds do the same (or higher) DPS/utility and are more fun to play.
It's still not even on PTS yet, so my decision to like it is not even close to final. I still like the sound of it as I envision it to be. It will make life very hard for uncoordinated groups.
That is complete BS. The only place where that type of heavy support NB build is required may be SO and it is certainly not something that the game forces you but whatever guild group you may be in. I for one enjoy playing that type of build because it does make part of endgame mechanics and actually is teamwork.However I am not forced into it as a NB if you go on YT you will find just a couple of dozens of Stamina DW/Bow NB videos completing the damn thing with very good dps.
Another thing that you actually admitted. The best NB support build(70%crit funnel, resto) is actually very far bellow in the dps department(DW,Bow destro). Those builds will not suffer in the slightest while a type of high support medium dps build will be rendered completely useless.
The ultimate change will not bring more diversity it will just make the highest raw dps build always be the only option.
OK, I don't know how unclear I was.. obviously I know that it's not the highest DPS. What I'm saying is I'd much rather go crushing shock, or a higher DPS build, but to do speedruns that is not an option because that spot would be for a DK instead. So basically, if NB then funnel, otherwise relog to DK. That was what I was saying. Now luckily I don't actually have it that bad.. but if you want to compete at the absolute highest level it is still what it is.
In case that wasn't obvious the reason for funnel would be to eliminate one of the healer spots and at the same time keep full uptime on veils. Well, we actually did AA that way without any healers.. but yeah. My point still stands, this will force class diversity as you cannot have only one of the classes and still rely on their ultimate.
Yes. In 1.6 you will have to have more even out trial groups in term of classes.This may not be the best thing though since filling a group with all you need may be a bit harder and of course we may end up with the best being 5 Nb +5 Sorcs +2 temps for everything.. However in terms of build diversity It is pretty clear to me that now it is going to be ''best possible DPS for that class or gtfo"+ Templar heals.
Still want to be a viable funnel health based dps in 1.6? Good luck with that since you will be 300-600dps lower than DW or Bow and have exactly the same utility.
Hopefully not. Also FH will still allow you to cut away a healer while still doing massively more DPS than that healer would do. It's less damage for more utility. Good enough for me.
I really think you are overestimating the utility of FH especially for 1.6 where Temps will be more required for Novas and are supposedly getting a few buffs.. Even now I do not see my residual heals HF making much of a difference inside trials (although noticeable in all 4 man content). I do not see much chance for that type of build. It wouldn't be much of a problem since I do have also have a Redguard DW dumb DPS NB but it certainly will not be as fun as my lower dps support NB that actually allowed DW NB to not bother with freaking Veils
The change also kills a lot of fun builds that worked well enough in stuff like 4 man vet dungeons but were not that great in trials. For example my Sould thether explody 2H hybrid stunalot NB build.
http://www.esohead.com/calculator/skills#mcmzxxMV0aya08wAvz8wABe8IPSd8IPU48A4hI8IPwB8IPbk8If0n8GFlO8IPU48A4hI8IPwB8L7JcdoQr6MdoQF6MdoQK6MdoQC6MdoQJ8p7JMdBEp6MdBvT6MdBEI6MdBvj6cdBET8x7Grsfd6Lsfw8C7Grzqb8D7GLzds8F7JLbux6LzrO6Lbut6LzrJ8O7MrdeF8U7oLrWe8zk7zzvKVv8zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX
Edited by PBpsy on January 19, 2015 11:35PMESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)1 -
AssaultLemming✭✭✭✭I dont support the changes as a PvE player.For me personally this change sucks. My current fh sap veil build is ruined, the hundreds of k invested in gold gear wasted and my favourite play style and group role gone. I was really enjoying playing a mid dps support class role, providing a lot of off heals and damage mitigation while still contributing some dps. Now it looks like a full respec, totally new gear and join the max dps or gtfo crowd is on the cards. Basically back to square one after being a loyal subscriber since beta.
My nb has 10 bits of gold gear with gold enchantments, at 25k per piece + 3k per enchant that is 280k gold on what are now probably non viable bits of gear. Where's my compensation for that?
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Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭I dont support the changes as a PvE player.AssaultLemming wrote: »For me personally this change sucks. My current fh sap veil build is ruined, the hundreds of k invested in gold gear wasted and my favourite play style and group role gone. I was really enjoying playing a mid dps support class role, providing a lot of off heals and damage mitigation while still contributing some dps. Now it looks like a full respec, totally new gear and join the max dps or gtfo crowd is on the cards. Basically back to square one after being a loyal subscriber since beta.
My nb has 10 bits of gold gear with gold enchantments, at 25k per piece + 3k per enchant that is 280k gold on what are now probably non viable bits of gear. Where's my compensation for that?
A middle finger to the hardcore players is not the way to go3