PvP Destroyed

Yolokin_Swagonborn · November 2014

It's not about the camps. The camps are a symptom of a greater disease that is killing PvP. I have posted this before but this is the list of what is really killing PvP.

Lag: (skill lag, weapon switch lag, door lag, zerg lag, pfx lag, lag lag)
Poor performance in PvP (crashes, lag, memory leaks) after every patch that go unchecked for weeks/months.
Bugs in certain skills that either break the skill completely or make it exploitable that go unchecked for weeks/months
Incorrect tooltips, hidden cooldowns (i.e. templar charge), and ninja nerfs to abilities that are never acknowledged or fixed.
Lack of in game support for duels/battlegrounds/instant action/ way to fight your friends/guildmates
AoE caps (and other mechanics) that favor zergballs
Range vs. Melee imbalance (an oft-neglected subset of the magicka/stamina debate.
Lack of a true overarching balance paradigm between the classes.
Inconsistent nerfs and buffs to certain classes or abilities in response to reactionary flameposts on the forums.
Long periods of neglect, followed by severe reactionary changes to PvP game mechanics.
Lack of a consistent or enforceable polity on "spirit of the game" issues such as trolling or "exploiting."

In summary, it feels like ZOS doesn't care about PvP and has been prioritizing PvE since Craglorn. PvP'ers feel the neglect and leave.

Messy1 · November 2014

^ Agree with the post above. Also please see my post introducing a grouping tool in Cyrodil to foster strategy!
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/140834/grouping-tool-for-alliances#latest

Varicite · November 2014

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

It's not about the camps. The camps are a symptom of a greater disease that is killing PvP. I have posted this before but this is the list of what is really killing PvP.
Lag: (skill lag, weapon switch lag, door lag, zerg lag, pfx lag, lag lag)

Poor performance in PvP (crashes, lag, memory leaks) after every patch that go unchecked for weeks/months.

Bugs in certain skills that either break the skill completely or make it exploitable that go unchecked for weeks/months

Incorrect tooltips, hidden cooldowns (i.e. templar charge), and ninja nerfs to abilities that are never acknowledged or fixed.

Lack of in game support for duels/battlegrounds/instant action/ way to fight your friends/guildmates

AoE caps (and other mechanics) that favor zergballs

Range vs. Melee imbalance (an oft-neglected subset of the magicka/stamina debate.

Lack of a true overarching balance paradigm between the classes.

Inconsistent nerfs and buffs to certain classes or abilities in response to reactionary flameposts on the forums.

Long periods of neglect, followed by severe reactionary changes to PvP game mechanics.

Lack of a consistent or enforceable polity on "spirit of the game" issues such as trolling or "exploiting."

In summary, it feels like ZOS doesn't care about PvP and has been prioritizing PvE since Craglorn. PvP'ers feel the neglect and leave.

I can't argue w/ any of this. Well said.

Wreuntzylla · November 2014

Just caught up on the discussion. After reading through page after page, here is my short summary.

1. It's the first week, people are in PvE leveling undaunted.
2. It's the second week, subs just ran out, you have to expect a lower PvP population. Also, people are adjusting to the new meta.
3.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Sure, perhaps it will take months before the playerbase learns how to play, and if we never do, then it is our own fault, but the game should be set up to give the community a chance of showing brillance.

Love it! Can't wait until next week! Keep it up guys!

Xsorus · November 2014

I hate forward camps, but if they implemented them with their current idea i wouldn't mind it...I view it as a way to appease baddies by giving them 1 free life.

Tintinabula · November 2014

what makes a person a baddie if you need to resurrect? Are we to call all folks who get soul gem resurrections baddies as well?

TiberiusTryton · November 2014

Delete FC's all together! Refund the AP back to the players or G banks and then move on to more important issues like lag, crashes, the fact that a pulse group can take on a faction or the fact that me being a DK can /wave at any bow user until he kills himself

purgation · November 2014

ewhite106b16_ESO wrote: »

Don't bring back forward camps. Removing them is saving PVP, not "destroying" it....I'm actually avoiding Planetside 2 now and playing ESO a great deal more because there isn't the problem of zergs suiciding and teleporting right into the middle of the fight. Fighting at points "between" the keeps/outposts is also great and that again is something that doesn't happen when "suicide and respawn at the forward camp" is a valid tactic.

Would really like to see ZOS be decisive on this, not be motivated into bringing back a feature that was proven to not work based upon who cries loudest on the forums.

Posts like this make me giggle.

Do you even play this game?

People want FCs gone because they don't like zergs => FCs gone and the game is zergier than ever.

People want FCs gone because they want more "strategy" => FCs gone and the only strategy is huge tugs of war over Sejanus/Bleakers/Nikel

People want FCs gone because they think death ports are game breaking => FCs gone and death ports are still in the game... just have to make sure you do it before target keep caps.

So, in a nutshell, everything happened just about the way people like me predicted. Where are all the posters admitting they were dead wrong about their predictions how the game would change without FCs?

To be clear, I never liked FCs but have loudly said that taking them out without adjusting other game mechanics was a bad move. So far, literally nothing has improved in the game that was promised by the "get rid of them crew".

Oh, except more ganking in some limited situations. I'm a healer. Getting one shot with zero chance of any kind of counter measure is TONS of fun. Why didn't I see that before?

What will it take for you to admit you are wrong?

JonnyHadji · November 2014

Do not bring back forward camps

Tintinabula · November 2014

Bring them back. I'm not making this stuff up. Randoms and puggers are not a regular thing to be seen anymore. I don't see them on keep walls..around resources. There's no random sporadic fighting in fields..its the keep or nothing else.

FCs gave people the feeling they were free to PvP.Now they can't

AllPlayAndNoWork · November 2014

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Cooldowns we're talking about range between 2-5 minutes (basically runtime/ridetime back to a fight from a nearby keep or keeps).

For Radius we're still toying with this too but it may turn out to be quite dramatic...such as the size of a keep for example. We'll see how it goes internally with the tech testing and gameplay testing.

We'll also be looking at the cost of them again.

Make them gold only - Leave the AP out of it.

KBKB · January 2015

/ Necro because this game is *** right now

Teargrants · January 2015

Dee Tick does not abide necromancy.

bosmern_ESO · January 2015

The only problem I have with PvP is it takes no skill to be good at fighting 1v1 or small group pvp fights. It comes down to who can stack shields the most, along with following the most popular build that is current which no other build could possibly beat.

-light armor magicka builds are best thing you can get in pvp
-medium armor is only good for ganking
-heavy? Just don't use heavy.

I really hope 1.6 changes PvP and for the better, its just so stupid how it is now. I know there is no such thing as balance but it seems like ZoS was trying to make it as unbalanced as possible.

Snargatron · January 2015

I think the new life in Haderus is fun this week!

/contribution

Teargrants · January 2015

Do you even ESO? 1v1 and small group fights are precisely where player skill makes ALL the difference. Build only determines the tools at your disposal, what matters is how you use it.

Heavy armor needs improvement with resource management, but med is very much competitive for stam builds. Saying med armor is only good for ganking just makes it impossible to take you seriously.

Galalin · January 2015

purgation wrote: »

ewhite106b16_ESO wrote: »

Don't bring back forward camps. Removing them is saving PVP, not "destroying" it....I'm actually avoiding Planetside 2 now and playing ESO a great deal more because there isn't the problem of zergs suiciding and teleporting right into the middle of the fight. Fighting at points "between" the keeps/outposts is also great and that again is something that doesn't happen when "suicide and respawn at the forward camp" is a valid tactic.

Would really like to see ZOS be decisive on this, not be motivated into bringing back a feature that was proven to not work based upon who cries loudest on the forums.

Posts like this make me giggle.

Do you even play this game?

People want FCs gone because they don't like zergs => FCs gone and the game is zergier than ever.

People want FCs gone because they want more "strategy" => FCs gone and the only strategy is huge tugs of war over Sejanus/Bleakers/Nikel

People want FCs gone because they think death ports are game breaking => FCs gone and death ports are still in the game... just have to make sure you do it before target keep caps.

So, in a nutshell, everything happened just about the way people like me predicted. Where are all the posters admitting they were dead wrong about their predictions how the game would change without FCs?

To be clear, I never liked FCs but have loudly said that taking them out without adjusting other game mechanics was a bad move. So far, literally nothing has improved in the game that was promised by the "get rid of them crew".

Oh, except more ganking in some limited situations. I'm a healer. Getting one shot with zero chance of any kind of counter measure is TONS of fun. Why didn't I see that before?

What will it take for you to admit you are wrong?

I disagree with almost every statement you have made... but thats only my opinion

DK Scrub out

Galalin · January 2015

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

The only problem I have with PvP is it takes no skill to be good at fighting 1v1 or small group pvp fights. It comes down to who can stack shields the most, along with following the most popular build that is current which no other build could possibly beat.

-light armor magicka builds are best thing you can get in pvp
-medium armor is only good for ganking
-heavy? Just don't use heavy.

I really hope 1.6 changes PvP and for the better, its just so stupid how it is now. I know there is no such thing as balance but it seems like ZoS was trying to make it as unbalanced as possible.

Im a med armor DK running equal amounts of stam and magicka and i do just fine in both group and solo combat.

Added: i dont use a single shield either.

bosmern_ESO · January 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

Do you even ESO? 1v1 and small group fights are precisely where player skill makes ALL the difference. Build only determines the tools at your disposal, what matters is how you use it.

Heavy armor needs improvement with resource management, but med is very much competitive for stam builds. Saying med armor is only good for ganking just makes it impossible to take you seriously.

Ok, tell me 5 people you know who competitively duel using 7/7 med armor, you probably can't.

I take it that you've never even tried using a stamina build because you are completely ignorant of them (probably because you don't want to risk loosing magicka so you can't bolt escape away like a baby).

The only thing that drains your magicka pool is using an ability. Also with magicka all your class abilities are more effective, and you get a lot more damage shields/armor/spell resistant buffs.

There isn't a single stamina damage shield in the game, not only that, Stamina builds are at a massive disadvantage to magicka because if a stamina build ever wants to sprint, dodge roll, break CC, or block they are reducing their ability pool giving them much less resource to do anything.

What I'm saying is, magicka is 10x more effective than stamina. If a pure magicka build was to go against a pure stamina build and both players were of equal skill, magicka would win easily. 1v1 does not determine skill, it determines builds. Do you even ESO?

kijima · January 2015

1.6 will fix everything

Galalin · January 2015

Personally i feel like if you go full stam or full magicka.... you are gimping yourself.... i see this often and they are usually the easiest kills... those builds tend to kill fast but die just as fast.. with possible exception of the sorc class.

I think its finding a balance in resources that meets the requirements of your type of build that is key.... going balls deep into stam or magicka... well lets just say it doesn't work for me anyhow.

Ppl ask me if im magicka or stam built... and i reply... both

DK Scrub out

JamilaRaj · January 2015

Galalin wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

The only problem I have with PvP is it takes no skill to be good at fighting 1v1 or small group pvp fights. It comes down to who can stack shields the most, along with following the most popular build that is current which no other build could possibly beat.

-light armor magicka builds are best thing you can get in pvp
-medium armor is only good for ganking
-heavy? Just don't use heavy.

I really hope 1.6 changes PvP and for the better, its just so stupid how it is now. I know there is no such thing as balance but it seems like ZoS was trying to make it as unbalanced as possible.

Im a med armor DK running equal amounts of stam and magicka and i do just fine in both group and solo combat.

Added: i dont use a single shield either.

I'd drop shield too, if I had scales.

OtarTheMad · January 2015

I do hope that they make heavy armor a little more viable in Update 6 for PvP. I even, finally, broke down and gave my DK some light armor and a destro staff for him to level those skills. Is it making a difference? Absolutely. Should it? Not by this much. Is it possible to feel squishier in heavy armor versus what I wear now? Because I do think that.

Cathexis · January 2015

How about something other than keeps to fight over! I've said this way too many times already but litter the map with dozens of capturable locations that contribute to overall campaign point scores. Let emp groups fight over keeps, give meaning to the zerg! I want to steamroll over valleys and hills capturing farms and pillaging villages!

Stop forcing the orcs into politics!
*dreams of rampaging territorial wars on the plains of cyrodiil*

Galalin · January 2015

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

The only problem I have with PvP is it takes no skill to be good at fighting 1v1 or small group pvp fights. It comes down to who can stack shields the most, along with following the most popular build that is current which no other build could possibly beat.

-light armor magicka builds are best thing you can get in pvp
-medium armor is only good for ganking
-heavy? Just don't use heavy.

I really hope 1.6 changes PvP and for the better, its just so stupid how it is now. I know there is no such thing as balance but it seems like ZoS was trying to make it as unbalanced as possible.

Im a med armor DK running equal amounts of stam and magicka and i do just fine in both group and solo combat.

Added: i dont use a single shield either.

I'd drop shield too, if I had scales.

It doesnt block mellee... i understand your point... but the point i was trying to make is that i don't believe either magicka or stam builds are better than one another... its the balance of both for the build your trying to achieve... and most important player skill and knowledge of the build they are using.

I have fought several other DK's and won easily.... that doesn't mean im going to walk up to someone like sypher and do the same.

I think player skill far outweighs any spec. But thats just my opinion.

OtarTheMad · January 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

How about something other than keeps to fight over! I've said this way too many times already but litter the map with dozens of capturable locations that contribute to overall campaign point scores. Let emp groups fight over keeps, give meaning to the zerg! I want to steamroll over valleys and hills capturing farms and pillaging villages!

Stop forcing the orcs into politics!
*dreams of rampaging territorial wars on the plains of cyrodiil*

Wouldn't be a bad idea I guess, be able to take over towns and cities... maybe even wrecked/broken down gates.

Cathexis · January 2015

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

How about something other than keeps to fight over! I've said this way too many times already but litter the map with dozens of capturable locations that contribute to overall campaign point scores. Let emp groups fight over keeps, give meaning to the zerg! I want to steamroll over valleys and hills capturing farms and pillaging villages!

Stop forcing the orcs into politics!
*dreams of rampaging territorial wars on the plains of cyrodiil*

Wouldn't be a bad idea I guess, be able to take over towns and cities... maybe even wrecked/broken down gates.

Yes! All sorts of new things to repair! Think of all those mangled wayshrines just sitting in ruins. A whole new tactical frontier!

Make cyrodiil alive.

Galalin · January 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

How about something other than keeps to fight over! I've said this way too many times already but litter the map with dozens of capturable locations that contribute to overall campaign point scores. Let emp groups fight over keeps, give meaning to the zerg! I want to steamroll over valleys and hills capturing farms and pillaging villages!

Stop forcing the orcs into politics!
*dreams of rampaging territorial wars on the plains of cyrodiil*

Wouldn't be a bad idea I guess, be able to take over towns and cities... maybe even wrecked/broken down gates.

Yes! All sorts of new things to repair! Think of all those mangled wayshrines just sitting in ruins. A whole new tactical frontier!

Make cyrodiil alive.

Sounds intersting.... how about wayshrines at one or all resources too.... would give more incentive to capture them before attacking keeps.... say in the same fashion of the keep where when they are flagged you cannot use them.

Teargrants · January 2015

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Ok, tell me 5 people you know who competitively duel using 7/7 med armor, you probably can't.

Aouhildr Hjoras, 7/7 med NB. If dueling Sypher to a draw for 12 min isn't 'competitive' to you, then what is?

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

I take it that you've never even tried using a stamina build because you are completely ignorant of them (probably because you don't want to risk loosing magicka so you can't bolt escape away like a baby).

I've run full med 2 hander, crit rushing blinking sorcs for free noms are some of my fondest memories. But thanks for calling me a blink baby, ppl who QQ when they can't catch me are always a laugh. I currently run 5 heavy 2 light cuz laughing at archers is also amusing.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

There isn't a single stamina damage shield in the game

Bro, Shielded Assault and Cleave.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Stamina builds are at a massive disadvantage to magicka because if a stamina build ever wants to sprint, dodge roll, break CC, or block they are reducing their ability pool giving them much less resource to do anything.

The trade off is stam builds have much more stam and stam regen, so they can sprint/roll/cc break/block more than mag builds, along with heavy atk. If you are running out of stam, I can direct you to my NB friend and his 2600 stam/180 stam regen.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

What I'm saying is, magicka is 10x more effective than stamina. If a pure magicka build was to go against a pure stamina build and both players were of equal skill, magicka would win easily.

I direct you to my first point.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

1v1 does not determine skill, it determines builds. Do you even ESO?

You can have the best build in the world, if you dont have a modicum of skill, it won't matter.

Tankqull · January 2015

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Cooldowns we're talking about range between 2-5 minutes (basically runtime/ridetime back to a fight from a nearby keep or keeps).

For Radius we're still toying with this too but it may turn out to be quite dramatic...such as the size of a keep for example. We'll see how it goes internally with the tech testing and gameplay testing.

We'll also be looking at the cost of them again.

Make them gold only - Leave the AP out of it.

would be an idea sth like 10-20k per tent. that way they would be kept as a strategic tool and not spitten all over the map like roasted sunflower seeds.