Why BoP is a terrible idea.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · January 2015

For those of you who don't know Bind on Pickup or (BoP) is a method MMORPG games use to restrict gear and other items by making them unable to be traded or sold after you pick them up.

In the past it has been used as a band-aide "fix" to items the developers didn't want people passing to others so instead of incentivizing them not to, they simply forced them to not be able to trade or sell the item.

This becomes more poignant when considering the Undaunted Pledges for example when dealing with the 2 pc sets.

The pluses to this mechanic are:

1) Stops developers from letting an item be traded or sold.

The minuses to this are:

1) Deters people who would be motivated to do content in order to "farm" items to sell, gift or trade to friends, family or others.

2) Discourages players who try to get the item over and over and over and over again for their own use while the other members in the group get lots and lots of the item that they will either vend or deconstruct, including ones that this player would use.

3) Takes valuable items from the economy. Currently there are VERY few high value items as the most valuable items are things that are simply rare and not really practical.

4) Discourages re-playability of content. I have several helms of the kind I want so I have no reason to repeat content, this leaves those who want to do the content to get the exact one they want with a smaller pool of players to go with them.

There are more reasons why BoP is detrimental to the health of an MMORPG when overused (or used at all imo) as it is

Keep in mind I am not referring to Bind on Equip which makes sense considering the game mechanics and is practically unavoidable. BoP however is simply poor design.

Some proposed solutions are:

A ) Make all BoP item's BoE (yes including pets why force us to keep or delete pets we don't want?) At the same time greatly reduce the drop rate of said BoP items.

B ) Make BoP gear from dungeons trade-able for a time, this is my least favourite because it really doesn't handle the Gold key shoulder rewards.

C ) Need before Greed system. The group you are with rolls for desirable loot, still doesn't handle shoulder BoP rewards which should be made BoE.

I believe if you implement solution A you will see a much happier economy and healthier game with more replayability of content.

dharbert · January 2015

I absolutely agree, BOP needs to go away. If you've done the Undaunted pledges trying to get a certain trait on a helm or shoulder, or you've got the one you want plus several others, you have no choice but to decon it, sell it to a vendor, or trash it.

Create another source of revenue for players and allow us to sell these and other BOP (Trials, etc..) gear, or at least trade them to our guild mates and friends.

tinythinker · January 2015

I once suggested giving advanced PvPers a chance to earn Alliance specific equipment with an Alliance specific bonus as a reward and as a way to make fighting under a particular banner more meaningful. I would still favor BoP for that equipment if such an idea were ever implemented, but I can't say I am convinced either way on BoP for Undaunted pledges. I assume the reason for using it for pledge equipment is to show that the person wearing the gear actually earned it. It's something that can't just be bought, much like the character achievements, only these achievements can be easily seen by other players.

Ahdora · January 2015

Agreed.

I have no problem farming for an item I want/need, and would opt to do so even if they were sellable. What I hate, however, is having to trash an item someone in my group really wants. I hate that. They were there, a part of that group, and the only reason I could get the item was because they were helping me. Yet I can't give them the reward they want, and instead have to just decon it.

Seems silly, really. At least for Undaunted stuff. Trial stuff, I don't know. But regular dungeon drops? Yeah...

AlnilamE · January 2015

I don't know. I think the number of items in this game that are BoP is small enough that it is an incentive to repeat the content, but not to a burn out point.

Gidorick · January 2015

Could they make items un-mailable so people can only sell them through guild stores?

DDuke · January 2015

Sorry, but the moment items like Vicious Ophidian, or Undaunted sets become BoE (read: instantly available for people with a lot of gold) is the moment I stop PvEing altogether and then spend all days complaining how there's nothing worth doing in the game.

You can't let people work hard to achieve something, then give it away basically for free to players pretty much fresh out of leveling process, that's just backwards thinking. If other players worked hard (and were skillful enough) to achieve those items, then so should you.

I'm not saying there are no faults with the game's loot systems, but BoE loot would only be a step backwards.

Other, more feasible solutions:

Make the loot system less punishing, by introducing a Need/Greed system for the most difficult content only (SO/Vet Arena).
Add a token or a reputation system for Undaunted shoulders (but make sure it's still difficult to get them).

dharbert · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Sorry, but the moment items like Vicious Ophidian, or Undaunted sets become BoE (read: instantly available for people with a lot of gold) is the moment I stop PvEing altogether and then spend all days complaining how there's nothing worth doing in the game.

You can't let people work hard to achieve something, then give it away basically for free to players pretty much fresh out of leveling process, that's just backwards thinking. If other players worked hard (and were skillful enough) to achieve those items, then so should you.

I'm not saying there are no faults with the game's loot systems, but BoE loot would only be a step backwards.

Other, more feasible solutions:
Make the loot system less punishing, by introducing a Need/Greed system for the most difficult content only (SO/Vet Arena).

Add a token or a reputation system for Undaunted shoulders (but make sure it's still difficult to get them).

I would also be fine with need/greed for group dungeons and trials, as well as a token system for Undaunted pledges.

Tankqull · January 2015

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

In the past it has been used as a band-aide "fix" to items the developers didn't want people passing to others so instead of incentivizing them not to, they simply forced them to not be able to trade or sell the item.

ots only purpose is to safe the longevity of the carrot on the stick in front of the player also known as gear grind.
some stupids like that for no understandable reason.

Ahdora · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Other, more feasible solutions:
Make the loot system less punishing, by introducing a Need/Greed system for the most difficult content only (SO/Vet Arena).

Add a token or a reputation system for Undaunted shoulders (but make sure it's still difficult to get them).

Like these ideas, and have discussed similar with guildies/friends.

BoE might water things down too much, I admit, but I am a bit dissatisfied with the current BoP system. I'd actually like to see a Need/Greed type of system for vet dungeons as well, only on loot of a certain quality (i.e. only purple items). That way if *the* helm drops, if one of the four people who participated in that boss kill needs it, they have at least a chance at it. The drop rate for those helms is still low, so it's not like everyone would have it on their first run.

In fact, with that kind of system in place, I'd even be fine with it being lowered [the drop rate]. Anything but me getting the helm when helping a friend farm it, and I won't even use it.

timidobserver · January 2015

I like both. There should be some items that you have to put in the effort to get, but I also like tradable/sellable items as well.

xaraan · January 2015

If BoP went away, items would just get that much more rare, you would need a ton of gold or the ability to farm just for the simplest piece. Making them BoP is part of the control because they know that you can only use so many and they will get vendor/broken down.

A good mix of both types of items is what is needed, that way the market has some cool stuff floating around in it besides stuff from PvP containers and there are still some items you have to go out and get yourself.

The only thing I'd like to see is the ability to trade an item within your group until you leave the dungeon. That way you all have done the content and if someone gets luckier constantly they can trade it away.

Ahdora · January 2015

xaraan wrote: »

The only thing I'd like to see is the ability to trade an item within your group until you leave the dungeon. That way you all have done the content and if someone gets luckier constantly they can trade it away.

The only issue I see with that is that people would then sell the loot right. They'd just get one person to leave the group and the zone, and invite someone else into the group (for a nice sum of gold, of course) to come in and have the item traded to them.

UrQuan · January 2015

I like BoP for trophies, because they are tokens/rewards for completing specific content, and you shouldn't be able to give those to people who haven't completed that content.

For loot like what you get from Undaunted pledges, maybe each piece could be tied to a specific achievement that you get for completing that particular pledge. Then it can only be equipped if you have completed that specific achievement. That way, if RNG keeps giving you a piece that you don't need, you can try to trade that piece to someone who got the piece that you do need, but it's still restricted so that it can't just be sold to anyone and it won't flood the market.

Just an idea, and there are probably flaws with the idea that I haven't thought of.

xaraan · January 2015

Ahdora wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

The only thing I'd like to see is the ability to trade an item within your group until you leave the dungeon. That way you all have done the content and if someone gets luckier constantly they can trade it away.

The only issue I see with that is that people would then sell the loot right. They'd just get one person to leave the group and the zone, and invite someone else into the group (for a nice sum of gold, of course) to come in and have the item traded to them.

Personally, I would have it so that if someone left the instance, then the items all become bound. (So hopefully you are with a group you trust and not a troll) or something similar (I'm not sure what the technical limitations of the system are). But I did think about that and would definitely create an answer for it in the programming in their shoes.

DDuke · January 2015

xaraan wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

The only thing I'd like to see is the ability to trade an item within your group until you leave the dungeon. That way you all have done the content and if someone gets luckier constantly they can trade it away.

The only issue I see with that is that people would then sell the loot right. They'd just get one person to leave the group and the zone, and invite someone else into the group (for a nice sum of gold, of course) to come in and have the item traded to them.

Personally, I would have it so that if someone left the instance, then the items all become bound. (So hopefully you are with a group you trust and not a troll) or something similar (I'm not sure what the technical limitations of the system are). But I did think about that and would definitely create an answer for it in the programming in their shoes.

Wouldn't a need/greed system work in pretty much the same way?

Would be easier to implement & less hassle imo

UrQuan · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

The only thing I'd like to see is the ability to trade an item within your group until you leave the dungeon. That way you all have done the content and if someone gets luckier constantly they can trade it away.

The only issue I see with that is that people would then sell the loot right. They'd just get one person to leave the group and the zone, and invite someone else into the group (for a nice sum of gold, of course) to come in and have the item traded to them.

Personally, I would have it so that if someone left the instance, then the items all become bound. (So hopefully you are with a group you trust and not a troll) or something similar (I'm not sure what the technical limitations of the system are). But I did think about that and would definitely create an answer for it in the programming in their shoes.

Wouldn't a need/greed system work in pretty much the same way?

Would be easier to implement & less hassle imo

What exactly is a need/greed system?

xaraan · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

The only thing I'd like to see is the ability to trade an item within your group until you leave the dungeon. That way you all have done the content and if someone gets luckier constantly they can trade it away.

The only issue I see with that is that people would then sell the loot right. They'd just get one person to leave the group and the zone, and invite someone else into the group (for a nice sum of gold, of course) to come in and have the item traded to them.

Personally, I would have it so that if someone left the instance, then the items all become bound. (So hopefully you are with a group you trust and not a troll) or something similar (I'm not sure what the technical limitations of the system are). But I did think about that and would definitely create an answer for it in the programming in their shoes.

Wouldn't a need/greed system work in pretty much the same way?

Would be easier to implement & less hassle imo

idk, I'm not much for having a "chance" to get an item, then having to go for another "chance" if more than one player wants an item. (Especially in my group where we all have multiple vets/classes and use all kinds of items)

I'd rather be put in a position where if I lucked out and got something, I could decided to gift it and be awesome, or trade it for something or sell it to someone else (depending on what someone desired to do).

But the need/greed thing is ok.

Ahdora · January 2015

xaraan wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

The only thing I'd like to see is the ability to trade an item within your group until you leave the dungeon. That way you all have done the content and if someone gets luckier constantly they can trade it away.

The only issue I see with that is that people would then sell the loot right. They'd just get one person to leave the group and the zone, and invite someone else into the group (for a nice sum of gold, of course) to come in and have the item traded to them.

Personally, I would have it so that if someone left the instance, then the items all become bound. (So hopefully you are with a group you trust and not a troll) or something similar (I'm not sure what the technical limitations of the system are). But I did think about that and would definitely create an answer for it in the programming in their shoes.

Then you run into problems with things like people legitimately needing to leave the group at some point during the run, so you get someone to come in and replace them... at what point are the items then bound? Only after the last boss, or what?

And then what happens if someone gets disconnected from the game (they crashed, their router went out, power outage, etc)?

I agree with DDuke, an NBG system would work as well and be easier to implement/come with less complications.

xaraan · January 2015

Ahdora wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

The only thing I'd like to see is the ability to trade an item within your group until you leave the dungeon. That way you all have done the content and if someone gets luckier constantly they can trade it away.

The only issue I see with that is that people would then sell the loot right. They'd just get one person to leave the group and the zone, and invite someone else into the group (for a nice sum of gold, of course) to come in and have the item traded to them.

Personally, I would have it so that if someone left the instance, then the items all become bound. (So hopefully you are with a group you trust and not a troll) or something similar (I'm not sure what the technical limitations of the system are). But I did think about that and would definitely create an answer for it in the programming in their shoes.

Then you run into problems with things like people legitimately needing to leave the group at some point during the run, so you get someone to come in and replace them... at what point are the items then bound? Only after the last boss, or what?

And then what happens if someone gets disconnected from the game (they crashed, their router went out, power outage, etc)?

I agree with DDuke, an NBG system would work as well and be easier to implement/come with less complications.

As I said, I don't know the technical needs for the programming of it, so it's hard to say, but I have a feeling that it wouldn't take much to sit down with a group for ten minutes and hammer out a dozen different concepts for how to deal with it.

Ahdora · January 2015

xaraan wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

The only thing I'd like to see is the ability to trade an item within your group until you leave the dungeon. That way you all have done the content and if someone gets luckier constantly they can trade it away.

The only issue I see with that is that people would then sell the loot right. They'd just get one person to leave the group and the zone, and invite someone else into the group (for a nice sum of gold, of course) to come in and have the item traded to them.

Personally, I would have it so that if someone left the instance, then the items all become bound. (So hopefully you are with a group you trust and not a troll) or something similar (I'm not sure what the technical limitations of the system are). But I did think about that and would definitely create an answer for it in the programming in their shoes.

Then you run into problems with things like people legitimately needing to leave the group at some point during the run, so you get someone to come in and replace them... at what point are the items then bound? Only after the last boss, or what?

And then what happens if someone gets disconnected from the game (they crashed, their router went out, power outage, etc)?

I agree with DDuke, an NBG system would work as well and be easier to implement/come with less complications.

As I said, I don't know the technical needs for the programming of it, so it's hard to say, but I have a feeling that it wouldn't take much to sit down with a group for ten minutes and hammer out a dozen different concepts for how to deal with it.

Oh I have no doubt that they could figure out solutions. My question is why, when NBG works the same way and is easier all around?

Nestor · January 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

What exactly is a need/greed system?

Basically:

The chest sits there for the entire group to loot, only the group has to determine who gets to pick what from the chest.

There are ups and downs to this. Ups are obvious, the downs are related to how well you know your group and how much you trust them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loot_system#.22Need_Before_Greed.22

BugCollector · January 2015

I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · January 2015

Ahdora wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Other, more feasible solutions:
Make the loot system less punishing, by introducing a Need/Greed system for the most difficult content only (SO/Vet Arena).

Add a token or a reputation system for Undaunted shoulders (but make sure it's still difficult to get them).

Like these ideas, and have discussed similar with guildies/friends.

BoE might water things down too much, I admit, but I am a bit dissatisfied with the current BoP system. I'd actually like to see a Need/Greed type of system for vet dungeons as well, only on loot of a certain quality (i.e. only purple items). That way if *the* helm drops, if one of the four people who participated in that boss kill needs it, they have at least a chance at it. The drop rate for those helms is still low, so it's not like everyone would have it on their first run.

In fact, with that kind of system in place, I'd even be fine with it being lowered [the drop rate]. Anything but me getting the helm when helping a friend farm it, and I won't even use it.

Added it as a possible solution.

spoqster · January 2015

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

For those of you who don't know Bind on Pickup or (BoP) is a method MMORPG games use to restrict gear and other items by making them unable to be traded or sold after you pick them up.

In the past it has been used as a band-aide "fix" to items the developers didn't want people passing to others so instead of incentivizing them not to, they simply forced them to not be able to trade or sell the item.

This becomes more poignant when considering the Undaunted Pledges for example when dealing with the 2 pc sets.

The pluses to this mechanic are:

1) Stops developers from letting an item be traded or sold.

The minuses to this are:

1) Deters people who would be motivated to do content in order to "farm" items to sell, gift or trade to friends, family or others.

2) Discourages players who try to get the item over and over and over and over again for their own use while the other members in the group get lots and lots of the item that they will either vend or deconstruct, including ones that this player would use.

3) Takes valuable items from the economy. Currently there are VERY few high value items as the most valuable items are things that are simply rare and not really practical.

4) Discourages re-playability of content. I have several helms of the kind I want so I have no reason to repeat content, this leaves those who want to do the content to get the exact one they want with a smaller pool of players to go with them.

There are more reasons why BoP is detrimental to the health of an MMORPG when overused (or used at all imo) as it is

Keep in mind I am not referring to Bind on Equip which makes sense considering the game mechanics and is practically unavoidable. BoP however is simply poor design.

Some proposed solutions are:

A ) Make all BoP item's BoE (yes including pets why force us to keep or delete pets we don't want?) At the same time greatly reduce the drop rate of said BoP items.

B ) Make BoP gear from dungeons trade-able for a time, this is my least favourite because it really doesn't handle the Gold key shoulder rewards.

C ) Need before Greed system. The group you are with rolls for desirable loot, still doesn't handle shoulder BoP rewards which should be made BoE.

I believe if you implement solution A you will see a much happier economy and healthier game with more replayability of content.

I am 100% with you. I vote for option A.

spoqster · January 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

I once suggested giving advanced PvPers a chance to earn Alliance specific equipment with an Alliance specific bonus as a reward and as a way to make fighting under a particular banner more meaningful. I would still favor BoP for that equipment if such an idea were ever implemented, but I can't say I am convinced either way on BoP for Undaunted pledges. I assume the reason for using it for pledge equipment is to show that the person wearing the gear actually earned it. It's something that can't just be bought, much like the character achievements, only these achievements can be easily seen by other players.

It would be quite cool to have alliance specific sets. A hint of Starcraft. :-)

spoqster · January 2015

Ahdora wrote: »

Agreed.

I have no problem farming for an item I want/need, and would opt to do so even if they were sellable. What I hate, however, is having to trash an item someone in my group really wants. I hate that. They were there, a part of that group, and the only reason I could get the item was because they were helping me. Yet I can't give them the reward they want, and instead have to just decon it.

Seems silly, really. At least for Undaunted stuff. Trial stuff, I don't know. But regular dungeon drops? Yeah...

Completely with you. The only thing in game design that is more important than providing a sense of achievement, is to avoid creating sources of frustration. BoP creates many sources of frustration. It's frustrating to find a rare item you then have to decon, and it's frustrating to not be able to give it to your friends and not be able to sell it. It's also frustrating to find 5 piece BoP items, knowing there is no realistic chance to ever get 5 pieces together.

DDuke · January 2015

BugCollector wrote: »

I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.

That is the exact reason they (and other good loot) are BoP & hard to get.

If they were BoE, soon everyone & their mothers would have them & they'd be worth nothing, while all the other weapons in game would be rendered obsolete due to easily achievable, superior weapon.

Good example of this is last summer, when they "accidentally" made all trial sets BoE. Within a week, everyone you met was running around in trials sets, before they managed to fix it & make them BoP again.

And since those things don't hold half the appeal the tier 2 (I think we can call them that already) trial sets have, you can imagine the result BoE would have...

spoqster · January 2015

Some of these comments about BoP watering things down make me unhappy. If this were my game, I'd try to find a way to even remove BoE. I am a proponent of a completely free economy and in my opinion restriction mechanics are a sign of lack of resources, lack of creativity or simply lazyness.

JessieColt · January 2015

Personally, I think all gear should be BOA.

If you really do need an item, it is because you need it for the character you are on, or one of your own alts. Not because you "Need" to sell it for coin.

Zershar_Vemod · January 2015

dharbert wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorry, but the moment items like Vicious Ophidian, or Undaunted sets become BoE (read: instantly available for people with a lot of gold) is the moment I stop PvEing altogether and then spend all days complaining how there's nothing worth doing in the game.

You can't let people work hard to achieve something, then give it away basically for free to players pretty much fresh out of leveling process, that's just backwards thinking. If other players worked hard (and were skillful enough) to achieve those items, then so should you.

I'm not saying there are no faults with the game's loot systems, but BoE loot would only be a step backwards.

Other, more feasible solutions:
Make the loot system less punishing, by introducing a Need/Greed system for the most difficult content only (SO/Vet Arena).

Add a token or a reputation system for Undaunted shoulders (but make sure it's still difficult to get them).

I would also be fine with need/greed for group dungeons and trials, as well as a token system for Undaunted pledges.

Would only work if it was not forced on groups and lead could choose to activate that, otherwise, you'll see nothing but people needing on everything.