6 skills + ulti would be the sweet spot imo

5 skills and 2 action bars is the best design choice I have seen in any MMO. Dont touch it.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

This is a new and original post.

The limited actionbar is there to teach you how to do exactly what you aren't doing: use strategy. This is not WoW. This is not a game where you set up a "rotation". Certain abilities synergize well with others, and certain abilities are better in certain situations. But there's a lot of flexibility within every class/skill set.

Stop trying to set up your bars as though you're playing a different game, and you'll find that it's very easy to create an effective build.

Actually this is a game where you set up a rotation, just like any other game out there.

Even though you wouldn't know about such things since you measure DPS by: "MM am I killing this fast enough for my taste", please don't speak nonesence like it's well established facts and when you actually are clueless on the subject.

@Soulborn_Solitude : It sucks, it's done like this because players nowadays crave easy games and more than 5 keys to push is too hard for them, moreover, the game was ported to console and 5 buttons is about the max you can have in a controller without pushing multiple buttons.

Best way to go is to use addons like Wykkyd's outfiter or Alpha tools (if you can get someone who has it to send you the file), prep your different builds in advance and then load them with numpad keys between fights. It's sadly useless to argue about the action bar in forums, most of those players who crave easy games roam the forums and the subject has been discussed countless times and will likely not get addressed.

I don't have anything resembling a "rotation" for DPS. I have key abilities I rely on for damage, and buffs/debuffs that I try to keep applied throughout the fight. But depending on the fight, I may be switching from ranged to melee, AoE to single-target, changing ultimates to suit the fight, etc. Nothing like a "1, 2, 3, 4" rotation that you see in games with that kind of play.

Case in point: Yesterday, for the DSC Veteran Pledge, I had been running with my bow bar set to mostly be used for AoE and execution (Impale). However, the last boss pretty much requires DPS to stay at range, so I changed my bars up: I threw Focused Aim on my ranged bar, and switched my ultimate to Soul Assault. I changed my melee bar to mostly be AoE-focused for the adds, and I changed the ultimate to Soul Harvest to build up ultimate more quickly on those kills.

Again, this is a design choice. It has nothing to do with making things easier for players. Indeed, if one actually reads the threads on the subject, it makes things a bit harder for them. If I wanted easy, I'd be playing a game where someone has literally written a guide for exactly which abilities to use in which order for your class, because it's the only way to be effective.

There are guides for every class describing exactly what abilities to use to be effective. You can't talk about effectiveness and not needing a rotation when you're talking about dungeons, all you need to clear that content is a decent tank and a decent healer and the DPS could take 2h to kill every boss for all they like spamming AOE abilities to single target DPS (I've sadly seen it happen). ESO is in fact one of the easiest MMORPGS on the market and sure as hell 100x easier than morrowind was or even oblivion. As far as dumbing down the game and simplification goes, it's right on par with Skyrim tho.

In order to clear the only hard content the game has to offer which is Santcum and VDSA, you need rotations, you need specific tactics or you will just not pull enough DPS to do it and hit the enrage timers. Before level/attribute points increase made them easy, it was the same for AA and Hel Ra. If you didn't have a rotation, you wouldn't clear the content (unless you're getting carried). Even before that, before they nerfed VR Ranks, you actually needed more than just a couple of skills synergysing to be able to clear the content, but that was too much for players who spent 50 levels rolling their heads on the keyboard to just pew pew mobs, even with 5 skills slotted.

Outside of those two contents, you can just run with 10 skills in your two bars to have enough to clear almost all of the content of the game without breaking a sweat and without needing to change bars, as long as you choose them well and you use a simple rotation.

The people who clear the few hard contents the game has to offer have many different setups, sometimes even different gear depending on the boss or the trash they are killing. And for most of them, all they do is push one binded key to just swap everything in a couple of seconds and they ALL use rotations when DPSing to be able to pull enough DPS to kill the boss in time.

If there where more slots to put skills on you just wouldn't need to swap bars between fights nor have to rely on addons to do things quickly which in the end only advantages people using those addons and removes any hope for casual players or people who don't like addons to actually be competitive in the game. This is even more true nowadays after Alpha Tools addon was discontinued and you got players who have the latest version and keep using it whereas others can't download it from ESOUI anymore because the addon maker decided to remove the addon and keep it for his friends.

As for the "design choice" excuse, it's nonsense that nobody buys anymore. The game was made thinking for console, every single UI element proves it, such as the 5 skills limitation and the continuous dumbing down on the franchise which is what console players like.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

This is a new and original post.

The limited actionbar is there to teach you how to do exactly what you aren't doing: use strategy. This is not WoW. This is not a game where you set up a "rotation". Certain abilities synergize well with others, and certain abilities are better in certain situations. But there's a lot of flexibility within every class/skill set.

Stop trying to set up your bars as though you're playing a different game, and you'll find that it's very easy to create an effective build.

Actually this is a game where you set up a rotation, just like any other game out there.

Even though you wouldn't know about such things since you measure DPS by: "MM am I killing this fast enough for my taste", please don't speak nonesence like it's well established facts and when you actually are clueless on the subject.

@Soulborn_Solitude : It sucks, it's done like this because players nowadays crave easy games and more than 5 keys to push is too hard for them, moreover, the game was ported to console and 5 buttons is about the max you can have in a controller without pushing multiple buttons.

Best way to go is to use addons like Wykkyd's outfiter or Alpha tools (if you can get someone who has it to send you the file), prep your different builds in advance and then load them with numpad keys between fights. It's sadly useless to argue about the action bar in forums, most of those players who crave easy games roam the forums and the subject has been discussed countless times and will likely not get addressed.

I don't have anything resembling a "rotation" for DPS. I have key abilities I rely on for damage, and buffs/debuffs that I try to keep applied throughout the fight. But depending on the fight, I may be switching from ranged to melee, AoE to single-target, changing ultimates to suit the fight, etc. Nothing like a "1, 2, 3, 4" rotation that you see in games with that kind of play.

Case in point: Yesterday, for the DSC Veteran Pledge, I had been running with my bow bar set to mostly be used for AoE and execution (Impale). However, the last boss pretty much requires DPS to stay at range, so I changed my bars up: I threw Focused Aim on my ranged bar, and switched my ultimate to Soul Assault. I changed my melee bar to mostly be AoE-focused for the adds, and I changed the ultimate to Soul Harvest to build up ultimate more quickly on those kills.

Again, this is a design choice. It has nothing to do with making things easier for players. Indeed, if one actually reads the threads on the subject, it makes things a bit harder for them. If I wanted easy, I'd be playing a game where someone has literally written a guide for exactly which abilities to use in which order for your class, because it's the only way to be effective.

There are guides for every class describing exactly what abilities to use to be effective. You can't talk about effectiveness and not needing a rotation when you're talking about dungeons, all you need to clear that content is a decent tank and a decent healer and the DPS could take 2h to kill every boss for all they like spamming AOE abilities to single target DPS (I've sadly seen it happen). ESO is in fact one of the easiest MMORPGS on the market and sure as hell 100x easier than morrowind was or even oblivion. As far as dumbing down the game and simplification goes, it's right on par with Skyrim tho.

In order to clear the only hard content the game has to offer which is Santcum and VDSA, you need rotations, you need specific tactics or you will just not pull enough DPS to do it and hit the enrage timers. Before level/attribute points increase made them easy, it was the same for AA and Hel Ra. If you didn't have a rotation, you wouldn't clear the content (unless you're getting carried). Even before that, before they nerfed VR Ranks, you actually needed more than just a couple of skills synergysing to be able to clear the content, but that was too much for players who spent 50 levels rolling their heads on the keyboard to just pew pew mobs, even with 5 skills slotted.

Outside of those two contents, you can just run with 10 skills in your two bars to have enough to clear almost all of the content of the game without breaking a sweat and without needing to change bars, as long as you choose them well and you use a simple rotation.

The people who clear the few hard contents the game has to offer have many different setups, sometimes even different gear depending on the boss or the trash they are killing. And for most of them, all they do is push one binded key to just swap everything in a couple of seconds and they ALL use rotations when DPSing to be able to pull enough DPS to kill the boss in time.

If there where more slots to put skills on you just wouldn't need to swap bars between fights nor have to rely on addons to do things quickly which in the end only advantages people using those addons and removes any hope for casual players or people who don't like addons to actually be competitive in the game. This is even more true nowadays after Alpha Tools addon was discontinued and you got players who have the latest version and keep using it whereas others can't download it from ESOUI anymore because the addon maker decided to remove the addon and keep it for his friends.

As for the "design choice" excuse, it's nonsense that nobody buys anymore. The game was made thinking for console, every single UI element proves it, such as the 5 skills limitation and the continuous dumbing down on the franchise which is what console players like.

Complete and utter bull.

This had nothing to do with consoles. Players don't use rotations (rotations are only used in games where abilities have cooldowns). And comparing the difficulty to a single-player game that let you pause and swap out abilities at any point is completely ridiculous.

Your dislike of the system does not make it broken or something for players who aren't as good as you. It just makes it a system that you have spent woefully little time thinking about from a design perspective.

I'm pointing out a continuous dumbing down of the games for a while, it's mentality I'm describing, not a straight comparison. Morrowind (119 different spell types, 6 classes of magic, and Attribute raising), had more complex and interesting character progression and gameplay systems (Morrowind had a total of 14 armor slot pieces, characters weren't naked under their armors) than Oblivion which in turn was more complex than Skyrim which was dumbed down to the max to bring a maximum of players. Sam goes for the story lines, Oblivion was still great but Skyrim was just dull and TESO story line isn't great at all either.

The combat system itself was changed and made easier game after game since Daggerfall and ESO, being one of the easiest MMOGs on the market, is just the continuation of the "let's dumb it down" strategy.

Moreover, you have to be blind or an utter fanboy (which I know you are), to actually believe outrageous stuff like the Q-wheel, 5 skills (which once again oddly fits PERFECTLY the number of available buttons in a controler after you cover all the non fighting buttons), bank/inventory interface, character creation, isn't made with consoles in mind.

I don't dislike the system, I make the best out of it like any gamer out there, it's actually easier to only have 5 buttons to press at one time since I can switch the skills in 1s between fights, but it doesn't stop me from thinking it's sad games nowadays need to be made easier to appeal to a broader crowd and at the same time I find the 5 skills limitation stupid because it doesn't really help that crowd to have an easy system since as soon as they face a challenge, they don't have any tools to react since game has been too easy up to that point.

As for players not using rotations, using the same exact sequence of skills and starting over that sequence once it's done over and over again until the boss dies, is called a rotation, and any decent player that has the slightest clue as to what he is doing and what is going on in the game does that in ESO, whether that is applying DOTs then spamming an ability with attacks in the middle until the dots need to be refreshed or more complex rotations that require ~20 key presses (including weaving) in the correct order while weapon swapping in the middle to achieve a perfect rotation and maximize damage.

.

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Concerning rotations I feel like this is more of a disagreement over semantics. In other games, swtor for example, I find the prevalence of "hard rotations" the norm. If you screw up the hard rotation; x followed by y followed by z; you're in for a world of hurt.

ESO seems to have a "fluid rotation" system where in some cases it is possible to go: x followed by y followed by (o no got caught in the red by accident) x followed by z.

Also I've had a feeling since beta's that if we ever got a 6th slot we all would becoming op. The entire content would need to be rescaled. Since im a tanky dk I love talons and cinder storm (cinder storm being by far my favorite), as of now I can't run both without sacrificing something. With a 6th slot oof I would be ecstatic.

Well for the most complex rotations out there, at least for DKs, screwing up (OOM, forgot to refresh DOT etc etc) can quickly cost you 100-200 DPS on long fights and even more on short fights so when you're looking to max out DPS to do a fast run or something it can cost a lot. That being said I agree that as long as you're using the correct skills, you'll always pull decent DPS even if you [snip] up. Regarding the 6th slot, you can always equip the extra skill on 2ndary and switch bars while blocking ^^.

BBSooner wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

This is a new and original post.

The limited actionbar is there to teach you how to do exactly what you aren't doing: use strategy. This is not WoW. This is not a game where you set up a "rotation". Certain abilities synergize well with others, and certain abilities are better in certain situations. But there's a lot of flexibility within every class/skill set.

Stop trying to set up your bars as though you're playing a different game, and you'll find that it's very easy to create an effective build.

Actually this is a game where you set up a rotation, just like any other game out there.

Even though you wouldn't know about such things since you measure DPS by: "MM am I killing this fast enough for my taste", please don't speak nonesence like it's well established facts and when you actually are clueless on the subject.

@Soulborn_Solitude : It sucks, it's done like this because players nowadays crave easy games and more than 5 keys to push is too hard for them, moreover, the game was ported to console and 5 buttons is about the max you can have in a controller without pushing multiple buttons.

Best way to go is to use addons like Wykkyd's outfiter or Alpha tools (if you can get someone who has it to send you the file), prep your different builds in advance and then load them with numpad keys between fights. It's sadly useless to argue about the action bar in forums, most of those players who crave easy games roam the forums and the subject has been discussed countless times and will likely not get addressed.

I don't have anything resembling a "rotation" for DPS. I have key abilities I rely on for damage, and buffs/debuffs that I try to keep applied throughout the fight. But depending on the fight, I may be switching from ranged to melee, AoE to single-target, changing ultimates to suit the fight, etc. Nothing like a "1, 2, 3, 4" rotation that you see in games with that kind of play.

Case in point: Yesterday, for the DSC Veteran Pledge, I had been running with my bow bar set to mostly be used for AoE and execution (Impale). However, the last boss pretty much requires DPS to stay at range, so I changed my bars up: I threw Focused Aim on my ranged bar, and switched my ultimate to Soul Assault. I changed my melee bar to mostly be AoE-focused for the adds, and I changed the ultimate to Soul Harvest to build up ultimate more quickly on those kills.

Again, this is a design choice. It has nothing to do with making things easier for players. Indeed, if one actually reads the threads on the subject, it makes things a bit harder for them. If I wanted easy, I'd be playing a game where someone has literally written a guide for exactly which abilities to use in which order for your class, because it's the only way to be effective.

There are guides for every class describing exactly what abilities to use to be effective. You can't talk about effectiveness and not needing a rotation when you're talking about dungeons, all you need to clear that content is a decent tank and a decent healer and the DPS could take 2h to kill every boss for all they like spamming AOE abilities to single target DPS (I've sadly seen it happen). ESO is in fact one of the easiest MMORPGS on the market and sure as hell 100x easier than morrowind was or even oblivion. As far as dumbing down the game and simplification goes, it's right on par with Skyrim tho.

In order to clear the only hard content the game has to offer which is Santcum and VDSA, you need rotations, you need specific tactics or you will just not pull enough DPS to do it and hit the enrage timers. Before level/attribute points increase made them easy, it was the same for AA and Hel Ra. If you didn't have a rotation, you wouldn't clear the content (unless you're getting carried). Even before that, before they nerfed VR Ranks, you actually needed more than just a couple of skills synergysing to be able to clear the content, but that was too much for players who spent 50 levels rolling their heads on the keyboard to just pew pew mobs, even with 5 skills slotted.

Outside of those two contents, you can just run with 10 skills in your two bars to have enough to clear almost all of the content of the game without breaking a sweat and without needing to change bars, as long as you choose them well and you use a simple rotation.

The people who clear the few hard contents the game has to offer have many different setups, sometimes even different gear depending on the boss or the trash they are killing. And for most of them, all they do is push one binded key to just swap everything in a couple of seconds and they ALL use rotations when DPSing to be able to pull enough DPS to kill the boss in time.

If there where more slots to put skills on you just wouldn't need to swap bars between fights nor have to rely on addons to do things quickly which in the end only advantages people using those addons and removes any hope for casual players or people who don't like addons to actually be competitive in the game. This is even more true nowadays after Alpha Tools addon was discontinued and you got players who have the latest version and keep using it whereas others can't download it from ESOUI anymore because the addon maker decided to remove the addon and keep it for his friends.

As for the "design choice" excuse, it's nonsense that nobody buys anymore. The game was made thinking for console, every single UI element proves it, such as the 5 skills limitation and the continuous dumbing down on the franchise which is what console players like.

Complete and utter bull.

This had nothing to do with consoles. Players don't use rotations (rotations are only used in games where abilities have cooldowns). And comparing the difficulty to a single-player game that let you pause and swap out abilities at any point is completely ridiculous.

Your dislike of the system does not make it broken or something for players who aren't as good as you. It just makes it a system that you have spent woefully little time thinking about from a design perspective.

As for players not using rotations, using the same exact sequence of skills and starting over that sequence once it's done over and over again until the boss dies, is called a rotation, and any decent player that has the slightest clue as to what he is doing and what is going on in the game does that in ESO, whether that is applying DOTs then spamming an ability with attacks in the middle until the dots need to be refreshed or more complex rotations that require ~20 key presses (including weaving) in the correct order while weapon swapping in the middle to achieve a perfect rotation and maximize damage.

.

If you want to call it a rotation that's fine ... though the bolded is what makes it not a rotation at all.

if you know you can only do CS 3x before switching bar to reapply DOTs it's still a rotation. In no way do you need ability CD to call it a rotation.

Edit: I guess it's less true when you're just spamming Funnel Health till you have to reapply crippling grasp.