Guild Traders a lesson in elitist trading

newtinmpls · January 2015

Wow. Interesting thread.

I agree that I don't want things to be 'easy'; it's much more interesting to explore. And yes, some guilds have ridiculously high prices. I ended up joining the East Empire Trading company because 1-the name, I mean really anyone who has ever played Morrowind will understand that I actually squealed when I saw it. 2-they were selling blue motifs for 50-200 when I was seeing them at 300+ in other trader's stalls. I thought 'hey, this is a group of much more reasonable folks'

Granted they really push for the members to have a certain number of items up for sale at any given time, and I'm an intermittant player at best, so at some point I'll probably be booted, but its fun while it lasts.

All that being said, I think that the crafted armor sets are much more fun, have better ability combos and are much more customizable (trait and level-wise) so I generally don't buy gear.

I don't grind; I'm here to play. So I'm mostly broke most of the time. I'm never going to have 1k of money to throw around (heck most of my characters have 200-300g on them at any given time) so I'll never join a guild that requires fees or charges membership.

All my characters have hirelings, and between that and the deconstructing, I'm usually close to 100 for any given 'trait' stone. When I get just over, reduce my stack to 90 and sell what's left (usually about 13-20) for 3 pennies, cause 1-they were free to me, and 2-I remember being broke and wanting to craft and not having the dratted stupid 15 pennies to buy a stone.

I also recall being right out of cold harbor and not having decent gear, so I sometimes trot over to a special crafting station and make a pile of 4th or 6th level gear to sell for 20-60g a peice. Gets rid of my piles of supplies and hopefully helps out some 'new' players. I like the game to be fun.

Woolenthreads · January 2015

And yet there are empty kiosks in some places, imagine that. On Betnikh, for instance, which my VR1 went through, there are 4 untended kiosks and one active one. Of course I might be mistaken, perhaps those kiosks are simply un-biddable

SteveCampsOut · January 2015

Woolenthreads wrote: »

And yet there are empty kiosks in some places, imagine that. On Betnikh, for instance, which my VR1 went through, there are 4 untended kiosks and one active one. Of course I might be mistaken, perhaps those kiosks are simply un-biddable

There's only 1 stall on Betnikh with a Trader NPC. Empty stalls do not count.

Woolenthreads · January 2015

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Woolenthreads wrote: »

And yet there are empty kiosks in some places, imagine that. On Betnikh, for instance, which my VR1 went through, there are 4 untended kiosks and one active one. Of course I might be mistaken, perhaps those kiosks are simply un-biddable

There's only 1 stall on Betnikh with a Trader NPC. Empty stalls do not count.

* thoughtfully* so they've got places where they have empty stalls that can't be bid on. I think that's foolish but it's ZOS's game, I'm just a player.

SteveCampsOut · January 2015

Woolenthreads wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Woolenthreads wrote: »

And yet there are empty kiosks in some places, imagine that. On Betnikh, for instance, which my VR1 went through, there are 4 untended kiosks and one active one. Of course I might be mistaken, perhaps those kiosks are simply un-biddable

There's only 1 stall on Betnikh with a Trader NPC. Empty stalls do not count.

* thoughtfully* so they've got places where they have empty stalls that can't be bid on. I think that's foolish but it's ZOS's game, I'm just a player.

There are empty stalls all over Tamriel. They may be awaiting occupation or the bandits may have driven off the NPC's. We just don't know for sure. Kenarthi's Roost has them, Glenumbra has them,Greenshade has them and I'm sure there are more in just about every zone that I haven't run across yet. A stall does not neccesarily mean it's a kiosk location.

ashlee17 · January 2015

As a guild Admin- I really love the idea of guild traders and kiosks - But i do agree the system for bidding on the guild traders is not optimal- Its very hard to know how much to bid and there is a huge "unknown" factor each week. With the current system i have even considered creating a shell guild just to bid on a smaller trader that can be released and handed over to my main guild should we lose out on our weekly bid. I have decided against this course of action as having a shell guild occupy a trader each week would not be of benefit to the rest of tamriel.

I would really like to see an overhaul of the current trader system. Something that would allow guilds to plan there trader locations in advance and based on their budget. I would also like to see restrictions on guilds occupying traders when they have a ridiculously low amount of items for sale in their store. (something like less then 30).

Being able to plan ahead can help guilds grow and flourish.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

Seems it would be much more fair to allow multiple guilds to occupy the same traders. The blind bid is just a guild bank gold sink.

Digiman · January 2015

It pretty much corners the market on the more successful powerful trading guilds making the idea of creating a new one a daunting task.

They should just get one vendor and have all the guilds wanting to trade pay a fee to list the items they put up for trade.

SteveCampsOut · January 2015

Digiman wrote: »

It pretty much corners the market on the more successful powerful trading guilds making the idea of creating a new one a daunting task.

They should just get one vendor and have all the guilds wanting to trade pay a fee to list the items they put up for trade.

Like an Auction House?

ashlee17 · January 2015

Firstly I love trader kiosk and enjoy how they fit into the game world. Unfortunately I believe that "if" the guild trader system is ultimately or even party designed to be just a gold sink it is still woefully ineffective. I have placed bids of over 100k that have been refunded to me after losing a kiosk bid. That's 100k I would have been happy to part with and zos would have been happy to have "sink". Instead it is refunded to me (bad for zos) and my guild is left without a trader for a week (bad for me). So it's a lose lose situation. I would say it's time for change. Thanks for reading and happy adventuring.

martinhpb16_ESO · January 2015

Digiman wrote: »

It pretty much corners the market on the more successful powerful trading guilds making the idea of creating a new one a daunting task.

They should just get one vendor and have all the guilds wanting to trade pay a fee to list the items they put up for trade.

The most sensible thing on this thread.

Yes just one trader that we can access from every bank that correlates all of the items for sale everywhere.

All this gibberish about things being to easy makes me laugh.

Travelling around to access only a few trading guilds, some with too high prices, some with no items to sell. Big guilds controlling the best spots, some guilds having no access to the market.

The system needs improving, just like other systems in the game. And it needs to be more open and fairer.

Competition should be dictated by prices not the price of the ability to sell.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

Everything would be dirt cheap if all sales were global. I just think the kiosks should have room for four or five guilds instead of just one.

Cody · January 2015

I don't even pay attention to the kiosks.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

Cody wrote: »

I don't even pay attention to the kiosks.

Then you have yet to discover a pretty fun minigame.

martinhpb16_ESO · January 2015

Cody wrote: »

I don't even pay attention to the kiosks.

Then you have yet to discover a pretty infuriating time sink.

martinhpb16_ESO · January 2015

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Everything would be dirt cheap if all sales were global. I just think the kiosks should have room for four or five guilds instead of just one.

Why will everything be dirt cheap?

Is everything dirt cheap on Ebay?

SFBryan18 · January 2015

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Everything would be dirt cheap if all sales were global. I just think the kiosks should have room for four or five guilds instead of just one.

Why will everything be dirt cheap?

Is everything dirt cheap on Ebay?

People on eBay aren't gaining a huge quantity of items by playing a video game. The comparison is not even close.

SteveCampsOut · January 2015

SFBryan18 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Everything would be dirt cheap if all sales were global. I just think the kiosks should have room for four or five guilds instead of just one.

Why will everything be dirt cheap?

Is everything dirt cheap on Ebay?

People on eBay aren't gaining a huge quantity of items by playing a video game. The comparison is not even close.

An Auction House comparison is exactly relevant. People all over the friggin world sell on eBay and since it is immensely searchable, they even price their items comparably! Your denial of this example shows a decided bit of tunnel vision on your part.

Woolenthreads · January 2015

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Woolenthreads wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Woolenthreads wrote: »

And yet there are empty kiosks in some places, imagine that. On Betnikh, for instance, which my VR1 went through, there are 4 untended kiosks and one active one. Of course I might be mistaken, perhaps those kiosks are simply un-biddable

There's only 1 stall on Betnikh with a Trader NPC. Empty stalls do not count.

* thoughtfully* so they've got places where they have empty stalls that can't be bid on. I think that's foolish but it's ZOS's game, I'm just a player.

There are empty stalls all over Tamriel. They may be awaiting occupation or the bandits may have driven off the NPC's.

The thing is, those kiosks have gear there and look like the trader just walked away for a smoko or to get a meal. IRL Bandits would make it look as if it had been pillaged and if it was awaiting occupation there wouldn't be goods sitting in the stall. It fools players into thinking the Guilds aren't interested in anything but a few places for trading. It's just graphically inconsistent and badly done on ZOS's part.

Alphashado · January 2015

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Everything would be dirt cheap if all sales were global. I just think the kiosks should have room for four or five guilds instead of just one.

Why will everything be dirt cheap?

Is everything dirt cheap on Ebay?

People on eBay aren't gaining a huge quantity of items by playing a video game. The comparison is not even close.

An Auction House comparison is exactly relevant. People all over the friggin world sell on eBay and since it is immensely searchable, they even price their items comparably! Your denial of this example shows a decided bit of tunnel vision on your part.

Sorry, but @SFBryan18 is correct. If you want to see what an auction house on a global server looks like, just play Gw2. There are so many of every possible item on the auction house that the sale price is literally pennies above vendor cost. In some cases even cheaper than vendor cost because people don't pay attention and post items for less than they could get at the vendor.

Ebay is not an accurate comparison because there is an almost infinite amount of items for sale there. A game only has so many items that can possibly be for sale. Imagine 1.2 million people all using the same auction house. Now imagine how many magicka potions are listed. Now imagine what they cost because there are tens of thousands of them listed.

You really have to see it for yourself to understand.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

In the real world, everything costs money. People don't work jobs where they get free stuff by looting crates and bodies. They have to work real jobs and pay for everything they need. In the game, there isn't really anything that you must buy. Sure, you could make your character stronger, but it's nothing like the real world. You have thousands of players accumulating the same stuff in huge stacks, and they all sell to the same consumers. Since the gold is not essential, they could practically give it away without consequence.

People on eBay are trying to make real money. Their property is finite and won't be easily aquired by killing random enemies by the hundreds. Items in ESO are practically free, and are always replaceable. If you have thousands of players trying to sell the same stuff, they will undercut each other until the items are practically free because the supply is much greater than the demand. Only gold and purple items would have any value, and anyone who doubts this simply does not understand.

kongkim · January 2015

If you are not a elite trader guild don't expect to have a trader in the larger cities.. Try get some of the other you are more likely to get.

SteveCampsOut · January 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Everything would be dirt cheap if all sales were global. I just think the kiosks should have room for four or five guilds instead of just one.

Why will everything be dirt cheap?

Is everything dirt cheap on Ebay?

People on eBay aren't gaining a huge quantity of items by playing a video game. The comparison is not even close.

An Auction House comparison is exactly relevant. People all over the friggin world sell on eBay and since it is immensely searchable, they even price their items comparably! Your denial of this example shows a decided bit of tunnel vision on your part.

Sorry, but @SFBryan18 is correct. If you want to see what an auction house on a global server looks like, just play Gw2. There are so many of every possible item on the auction house that the sale price is literally pennies above vendor cost. In some cases even cheaper than vendor cost because people don't pay attention and post items for less than they could get at the vendor.

Ebay is not an accurate comparison because there is an almost infinite amount of items for sale there. A game only has so many items that can possibly be for sale. Imagine 1.2 million people all using the same auction house. Now imagine how many magicka potions are listed. Now imagine what they cost because there are tens of thousands of them listed.

You really have to see it for yourself to understand.

I've seen global AH's in action going all the way back to DAoC where they added global access to each guild store at the entrance to housing zones. I think I have a firm enough understanding of gaming AH's. Not all AH's are the same nor do they all produce the same results. And if you want to see Kiosks Gone Wild, Go check out Perfect World International. It's F2P. Talk about running from Kiosk to Kiosk and not being able to find what you're looking for! Sheesh!

AlexDougherty · January 2015

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

I don't even pay attention to the kiosks.

Then you have yet to discover a pretty infuriating time sink.

Usefull for motifs and gear who's traits you have yet to find though.
Also useful for mats and ingredients, and jewellery.
Basically anything you might want to buy.

martinhpb16_ESO · January 2015

SFBryan18 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Everything would be dirt cheap if all sales were global. I just think the kiosks should have room for four or five guilds instead of just one.

Why will everything be dirt cheap?

Is everything dirt cheap on Ebay?

People on eBay aren't gaining a huge quantity of items by playing a video game. The comparison is not even close.

That is ridiculous

martinhpb16_ESO · January 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Sorry, but @SFBryan18 is correct. If you want to see what an auction house on a global server looks like, just play Gw2. There are so many of every possible item on the auction house that the sale price is literally pennies above vendor cost. In some cases even cheaper than vendor cost because people don't pay attention and post items for less than they could get at the vendor.

Ebay is not an accurate comparison because there is an almost infinite amount of items for sale there. A game only has so many items that can possibly be for sale. Imagine 1.2 million people all using the same auction house. Now imagine how many magicka potions are listed. Now imagine what they cost because there are tens of thousands of them listed.

You really have to see it for yourself to understand.

Sorry, but in my experience it doesn't work like that.

LOTRO has a perfectly fine AH where prices are reasonable according to factors of supply & demand peculiar to an MMO. What you are condoning is over-inflated prices and a market where the buyer may be exploited through lack of choice.

Also in ESO people are already selling materials for less than vendor value, so your argument doesnt hold.

In MMOs prices are dictated by three things.

A.) The rarity of that item e.g. rare armor like hawkeye or jewelery from chests like Soulshine. Even though there may be a few of these around prices will remain high because of rarity. The vendor knows the buyer will have to go through hoops to get one.

B.) The amount of time that a player will have to put in to get an item e.g. from crafting, farming or PVE dungeons. So you will see hides that are easy to farm and easy to obtain from decon, selling for less than vendor value, whereas you will see tri-stat pots selling for premium because the farming for the mats takes a long time.

C.) The introduction of a new crafting tier, crafting component or level etc. where an item is in high demand for a short period therefore spiking demand and prices. As supply increases prices level to a natural rate according to A. or B.

All of the above will always dictate prices in an MMO as they will dictate supply.

This thread is about giving everyone a fair and equal opportunity to sell.

Your argument condones closed markets, lack or buyer awareness and inflated prices thereby confusing the factors of MMO supply listed above.

The current system is limiting the supply of goods, not by player effort but by ability to sell based on bidding for a few limited selling outlets. Further confused by a minimalist searching UI.

Grao · January 2015

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

So this week none of my 3 trading guilds have a trader.

One of them was ousted even though the bid was 280,000g in Wayrest

We don't need a system with so many barriers to effective trading.

This is a far cry from the assertion that not having an AH would create an egalitarian system.

So now my 3 trading guilds have no trader for a whole week, making less money, making it harder to bid, and inevitably losing members. Effectively these guilds now have no access to the open market.

The elite guilds control the market.

We just want to trade, buy & sell and not have to put so much effort into bidding, recruiting etc.

If we are not to have an AH the current system needs some serious reworking.

I will have to disagree with you OP, sorry.

I've played WoW specially during Cataclysm and while the AH made it seem easier to sell items, it really didn't. Why? Because some of us with better market strategy and more time in our hands could completely take over the Market and control it nearly perfectly.

I know that was possible and a practice because I was one of the controllers on the server I played. Together with a guild mate I controlled both Blacksmith and Jewel Crafting Markets by buying every useful item bellow what we agreed was the right price for gems and reselling those at a higher price. We also undercut people with no mercy when we thought their price wasn't low enough to justify a buy off.

The Trading System in ESO is not perfect, but I don't think it was ever meant to be. It is meant to mimic trading in a semi medieval society, trade relying on Guilds, small stands all over the place and mouth-to-mouth deals between people. That system actually protects casual crafters from people like me... Jackasses that enjoy piling up gold like dragons.

Ps. My main has all professions leveled to max and I have at least a stack of every crafting material in the game. If an AH was released today in ESO, me and others like me would pounce it claws and fangs and would take complete control over it... You would not like that. ^^

If your Trade Guilds are having problems they should definitely try entering a trade alliance, those are forming in every server and they can be very useful when securing stands, determining prices for new items in game, etc. Have your guild leaders look into it.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Sorry, but @SFBryan18 is correct. If you want to see what an auction house on a global server looks like, just play Gw2. There are so many of every possible item on the auction house that the sale price is literally pennies above vendor cost. In some cases even cheaper than vendor cost because people don't pay attention and post items for less than they could get at the vendor.

Ebay is not an accurate comparison because there is an almost infinite amount of items for sale there. A game only has so many items that can possibly be for sale. Imagine 1.2 million people all using the same auction house. Now imagine how many magicka potions are listed. Now imagine what they cost because there are tens of thousands of them listed.

You really have to see it for yourself to understand.

Sorry, but in my experience it doesn't work like that.

LOTRO has a perfectly fine AH where prices are reasonable according to factors of supply. What you are condoning is over-inflated prices and a market where the buyer may be exploited through lack of choice.

Also in ESO people are already selling materials for less than vendor value.

In MMOs prices are dictated by three things.

- The rarity of that item e.g. rare dungeon armor or jewelery from chests like Soulshine.

- The amount of time that a player will have to put in to get an item e.g. from crafting, farming or PVE. So you will see hides that are easy to farm and easy to obtain from decon selling for less than vendor value, whereas you will see tri-pots selling for premium because the farming for the mats takes a long time.

- The introduction of a new crafting tier, crafting component or level etc. where an item is in high demand for a short period therefore spiking demand and prices.

All of the above will always dictate prices in an MMO as they will dictate supply.

This thread is about giving everyone a fair and equal opportunity to sell[/b][/b]

Your argument condones closed markets, lack or buyer awareness and inflated prices.

Players sell for less than the vendor because no one would buy the item if the vendor was cheaper. They will never sell for cheaper than what the vendor would give them because they might as well take the item to the vendor and sell it to them.

I think you are under the assumption that items are rare in ESO. Most items are not rare and you would know this if you traveled to different guild kiosks. There is a huge supply of everything in ESO, and the only reason it has value is because you have to track it down to get it. If you eliminate that process, all you will have is supply without much demand and prices will drop to the floor.

You also want to eliminate the process of having to actually shop around. This is your opinion and I feel the current system is much more immersive. Yes, it wastes time, but searching around for bargains feels like real shopping. Tamriel doesn't have eBay, and they shouldn't because they don't have that type of technology.

And while you are entitled to your own preferences and opinions, I personally hope they keep the market from going global because it would eliminate an aspect of the game that has revived my interest in ESO. Buying cheap and selling for average would not be possible, and I spend half my time now playing a merchant. You want things to be easy for you. I don't.

SteveCampsOut · January 2015

SFBryan18 wrote: »

You want things to be easy for you. I don't.

At least you're honest about one thing!

Grao wrote: »

Ps. My main has all professions leveled to max and I have at least a stack of every crafting material in the game. If an AH was released today in ESO, me and others like me would pounce it claws and fangs and would take complete control over it... You would not like that. ^^

If your Trade Guilds are having problems they should definitely try entering a trade alliance, those are forming in every server and they can be very useful when securing stands, determining prices for new items in game, etc. Have your guild leaders look into it.

Sounds to me like you're already involved in price setting in the market and haven't changed your tactics just because there are Kiosks instead of an AH. So basically more of the same and you recommend people just follow your lead.

martinhpb16_ESO · January 2015

Grao wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

So this week none of my 3 trading guilds have a trader.

One of them was ousted even though the bid was 280,000g in Wayrest

We don't need a system with so many barriers to effective trading.

This is a far cry from the assertion that not having an AH would create an egalitarian system.

So now my 3 trading guilds have no trader for a whole week, making less money, making it harder to bid, and inevitably losing members. Effectively these guilds now have no access to the open market.

The elite guilds control the market.

We just want to trade, buy & sell and not have to put so much effort into bidding, recruiting etc.

If we are not to have an AH the current system needs some serious reworking.

I will have to disagree with you OP, sorry.

I've played WoW specially during Cataclysm and while the AH made it seem easier to sell items, it really didn't. Why? Because some of us with better market strategy and more time in our hands could completely take over the Market and control it nearly perfectly.

I know that was possible and a practice because I was one of the controllers on the server I played. Together with a guild mate I controlled both Blacksmith and Jewel Crafting Markets by buying every useful item bellow what we agreed was the right price for gems and reselling those at a higher price. We also undercut people with no mercy when we thought their price wasn't low enough to justify a buy off.

The Trading System in ESO is not perfect, but I don't think it was ever meant to be. It is meant to mimic trading in a semi medieval society, trade relying on Guilds, small stands all over the place and mouth-to-mouth deals between people. That system actually protects casual crafters from people like me... Jackasses that enjoy piling up gold like dragons.

Ps. My main has all professions leveled to max and I have at least a stack of every crafting material in the game. If an AH was released today in ESO, me and others like me would pounce it claws and fangs and would take complete control over it... You would not like that. ^^

If your Trade Guilds are having problems they should definitely try entering a trade alliance, those are forming in every server and they can be very useful when securing stands, determining prices for new items in game, etc. Have your guild leaders look into it.

And as the OP in my original post you will see that I say,

"If we are not to have an AH the current system needs some serious reworking."

Hopefully this thread and others like it will prompt the Devs to improve the current system.