Sword and Board: The new mandatory

Pancake-Tragedy · January 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

Allright I'm a very bad DK and I make up numbers. For the other sorcs who are curious about how to kill a S&B DK, you can whisper me ingame and I will be glad to provide some guidance with my friend Skaffa who has a sorc on the AD side spec properly.

Have a good day.

I've faced Skaffa and I am pretty interested in his build. The times that I faced him he was able to streak around and pick off targets with crit charge pretty well. I just wonder about it's effectiveness in a large group setting, since it doesn't have much as far as AoE is concerned (from what I can see anyways).

WIth that being said, I don't think I am willing to give up my build (which is effective in most settings and against most builds) just to take out a build that is generally a waste of time to fight against (DK SnB), but that's due to my own stubbornness.

GorraShatan · January 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Hahahah.

No need to thank me, but I do appreciate it.

It's no so much the DK class, though their sustainability abilities certainly contribute, but how the whole mess of S/B + Light Armor + DK rolls into one nasty, OP mess.

I've been working on a toon to try and punish this. Been going bow+destro on my DK. Basic idea is to use the "double reflect" trick while* using bow to get past their bat wings at long distance, and do use AoEs from the destro staff and class skills to wear them down up close. Burning embers really helps supplement Green Dragon Blood and Igneous shield for sustain too.

Oh, and caltrops of course.

Still leveling the toon (level 47 I believe) so obviously still pretty weak, but I've been enjoying it so far.

* the "double reflect trick" is where you put a reflect up so that when they reflect your arrow back at you, it reflects again back to them. It cannot be reflected a third time, so it breaks through.

Also, as we say on AD, Frozn = the best emp since the Lion King.

Oughash · January 2015

thelordoffelines wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Once again, for all the sorcs who QQ about S&B being the only counter to S&B, that is not true. If you want a real counter, you should try 2hand / resto. Streak / Critical Charge / Curse combo drains the stamina really fast.

I have dueled many experienced players spec properly, with my S&B DK and there is no way I could beat them.

If I dare to go offensive, I die in 10-15 seconds.
If I focus on survivability, I can last 45 seconds top.

Your DK skills must be underdeveloped.

Said combo costs the sorc around 450 Magicka and 200 Stam for the first use at least, in 7/7 light. If you want to pressure you have to repeat it in short sequence, means streak will cost double and no magicka regen for 4 seconds. So we are at 700 Magicka and 200 Stam for the follow up combo.

With s&b and def stance/absorb on bar you pay around a 100 stam per block without block reduc rings. So the first time the combo hits you trade 300 stam for 450 Mag and 200 stam - you win. Follow up combo you win by an even larger margin ressourcewise.

A full light sorc`s stam pool rarely exceeds 1.6k. Nonetheless he also has to waste stam offensively to pressure you and additionally pays a higher price for blocking than you do with s&b. Let`s say we go another route and assume the sorc is wearing some medium pieces to reduce the crit charge cost, his magicka expenses increase dramatically (5l/2m: 600 Magicka & 180 Stam first combo, 950 Magicka & 180 Stam follow up). Since streak is essential to put on pressure, he would be out of magicka within seconds going full pressure mode.

If your stam pool and stam regen have decent values as s&b dk and if you know how to abuse cinderstorm to make the light/heavy weaves miss after charge, there is no chance the sorc can keep the pressure up.

You shouldn`t even be in need to pop GDB before the sorc has to switch resto to regain ressources. The damage done by unblockable curse 450 every 4 secs is a joke. 50 HP regen and Mutagen ticks alone neglect that damage almost completely. Damage shields and stuff not even accounted for.

Yawn, I seriously doubt you and the sorc were as experienced as you think.

There is always a counter to everything so you are not prouving anything by saying that there is a way to kill that sorc. Of course it is possible, because everything has a hard counter.

First of all, I am not resto, I am S&B + Destro. Second, I don't use Cinder Storm. Third, did I mention that Critical Charge hits for 950dmg even if I hold block? 950dmg. So if I dare to go offensive and forget to refresh Igneous Shield only one second, I'm screwed.

Another point, it is very easy for a sorc to stun a DK by streaking. A DK has to constantly weapon swap and it happens very often that I get caught off guard. If I get stunned by streak, I MUST cc break it otherwise I'm dead. That's already alot of stamina spent right there.

Once again, if you don't believe me, I challenge you to duel Skaffa ingame and talk to me about it after.

I'm not really in theory crafting so you kinda lost me with all your numbers. On the other side, I know how and when to use my abilities to be efficient and I have a good situation awareness in general. I have several recordings of me killing multiple vr14s in the same battle 1vX so I would not consider myself an unexperienced player.

There is a counter to perma block shield builds.... get a shield yourself!! and its about all most people can do:D shows the glorious balance ESO has....

"How do we put out that fire? Its so out of control it seems like it doesn't have a counter!"~fireman 1

"uhhh hmmm.... Throw a fire on it!"~fireman 2

You realize that Firefighters actually do this, right? (They start a fire to put out a fire)

Rylana · January 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

thelordoffelines wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Once again, for all the sorcs who QQ about S&B being the only counter to S&B, that is not true. If you want a real counter, you should try 2hand / resto. Streak / Critical Charge / Curse combo drains the stamina really fast.

I have dueled many experienced players spec properly, with my S&B DK and there is no way I could beat them.

If I dare to go offensive, I die in 10-15 seconds.
If I focus on survivability, I can last 45 seconds top.

Your DK skills must be underdeveloped.

Said combo costs the sorc around 450 Magicka and 200 Stam for the first use at least, in 7/7 light. If you want to pressure you have to repeat it in short sequence, means streak will cost double and no magicka regen for 4 seconds. So we are at 700 Magicka and 200 Stam for the follow up combo.

With s&b and def stance/absorb on bar you pay around a 100 stam per block without block reduc rings. So the first time the combo hits you trade 300 stam for 450 Mag and 200 stam - you win. Follow up combo you win by an even larger margin ressourcewise.

A full light sorc`s stam pool rarely exceeds 1.6k. Nonetheless he also has to waste stam offensively to pressure you and additionally pays a higher price for blocking than you do with s&b. Let`s say we go another route and assume the sorc is wearing some medium pieces to reduce the crit charge cost, his magicka expenses increase dramatically (5l/2m: 600 Magicka & 180 Stam first combo, 950 Magicka & 180 Stam follow up). Since streak is essential to put on pressure, he would be out of magicka within seconds going full pressure mode.

If your stam pool and stam regen have decent values as s&b dk and if you know how to abuse cinderstorm to make the light/heavy weaves miss after charge, there is no chance the sorc can keep the pressure up.

You shouldn`t even be in need to pop GDB before the sorc has to switch resto to regain ressources. The damage done by unblockable curse 450 every 4 secs is a joke. 50 HP regen and Mutagen ticks alone neglect that damage almost completely. Damage shields and stuff not even accounted for.

Yawn, I seriously doubt you and the sorc were as experienced as you think.

There is always a counter to everything so you are not prouving anything by saying that there is a way to kill that sorc. Of course it is possible, because everything has a hard counter.

First of all, I am not resto, I am S&B + Destro. Second, I don't use Cinder Storm. Third, did I mention that Critical Charge hits for 950dmg even if I hold block? 950dmg. So if I dare to go offensive and forget to refresh Igneous Shield only one second, I'm screwed.

Another point, it is very easy for a sorc to stun a DK by streaking. A DK has to constantly weapon swap and it happens very often that I get caught off guard. If I get stunned by streak, I MUST cc break it otherwise I'm dead. That's already alot of stamina spent right there.

Once again, if you don't believe me, I challenge you to duel Skaffa ingame and talk to me about it after.

I'm not really in theory crafting so you kinda lost me with all your numbers. On the other side, I know how and when to use my abilities to be efficient and I have a good situation awareness in general. I have several recordings of me killing multiple vr14s in the same battle 1vX so I would not consider myself an unexperienced player.

There is a counter to perma block shield builds.... get a shield yourself!! and its about all most people can do:D shows the glorious balance ESO has....

"How do we put out that fire? Its so out of control it seems like it doesn't have a counter!"~fireman 1

"uhhh hmmm.... Throw a fire on it!"~fireman 2

You realize that Firefighters actually do this, right? (They start a fire to put out a fire)

I actually know a guy that fights oilwell fires. Know what the primary solution to an oilwell fire is?

High explosives. Not to seal it, no no, that wouldnt even work. To create an oxygen vacuum long enough to extinguish combustion.

Similar principle.

Oughash · January 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

thelordoffelines wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Once again, for all the sorcs who QQ about S&B being the only counter to S&B, that is not true. If you want a real counter, you should try 2hand / resto. Streak / Critical Charge / Curse combo drains the stamina really fast.

I have dueled many experienced players spec properly, with my S&B DK and there is no way I could beat them.

If I dare to go offensive, I die in 10-15 seconds.
If I focus on survivability, I can last 45 seconds top.

Your DK skills must be underdeveloped.

Said combo costs the sorc around 450 Magicka and 200 Stam for the first use at least, in 7/7 light. If you want to pressure you have to repeat it in short sequence, means streak will cost double and no magicka regen for 4 seconds. So we are at 700 Magicka and 200 Stam for the follow up combo.

With s&b and def stance/absorb on bar you pay around a 100 stam per block without block reduc rings. So the first time the combo hits you trade 300 stam for 450 Mag and 200 stam - you win. Follow up combo you win by an even larger margin ressourcewise.

A full light sorc`s stam pool rarely exceeds 1.6k. Nonetheless he also has to waste stam offensively to pressure you and additionally pays a higher price for blocking than you do with s&b. Let`s say we go another route and assume the sorc is wearing some medium pieces to reduce the crit charge cost, his magicka expenses increase dramatically (5l/2m: 600 Magicka & 180 Stam first combo, 950 Magicka & 180 Stam follow up). Since streak is essential to put on pressure, he would be out of magicka within seconds going full pressure mode.

If your stam pool and stam regen have decent values as s&b dk and if you know how to abuse cinderstorm to make the light/heavy weaves miss after charge, there is no chance the sorc can keep the pressure up.

You shouldn`t even be in need to pop GDB before the sorc has to switch resto to regain ressources. The damage done by unblockable curse 450 every 4 secs is a joke. 50 HP regen and Mutagen ticks alone neglect that damage almost completely. Damage shields and stuff not even accounted for.

Yawn, I seriously doubt you and the sorc were as experienced as you think.

There is always a counter to everything so you are not prouving anything by saying that there is a way to kill that sorc. Of course it is possible, because everything has a hard counter.

First of all, I am not resto, I am S&B + Destro. Second, I don't use Cinder Storm. Third, did I mention that Critical Charge hits for 950dmg even if I hold block? 950dmg. So if I dare to go offensive and forget to refresh Igneous Shield only one second, I'm screwed.

Another point, it is very easy for a sorc to stun a DK by streaking. A DK has to constantly weapon swap and it happens very often that I get caught off guard. If I get stunned by streak, I MUST cc break it otherwise I'm dead. That's already alot of stamina spent right there.

Once again, if you don't believe me, I challenge you to duel Skaffa ingame and talk to me about it after.

I'm not really in theory crafting so you kinda lost me with all your numbers. On the other side, I know how and when to use my abilities to be efficient and I have a good situation awareness in general. I have several recordings of me killing multiple vr14s in the same battle 1vX so I would not consider myself an unexperienced player.

There is a counter to perma block shield builds.... get a shield yourself!! and its about all most people can do:D shows the glorious balance ESO has....

"How do we put out that fire? Its so out of control it seems like it doesn't have a counter!"~fireman 1

"uhhh hmmm.... Throw a fire on it!"~fireman 2

You realize that Firefighters actually do this, right? (They start a fire to put out a fire)

I actually know a guy that fights oilwell fires. Know what the primary solution to an oilwell fire is?

High explosives. Not to seal it, no no, that wouldnt even work. To create an oxygen vacuum long enough to extinguish combustion.

Similar principle.

Yes, this is what I was talking about. Also, forest firefighters will often start a fire in the path of one that is burning so that you can prevent it from going farther (i.e. remove the combustible material).

yodased · January 2015

Fires are also set to control future fires! Its called a control burn and it happens every year in any state that has drought conditions for wildfires.

Burn what will be a small fire that could start a huge fire.

Yeah also burn the fuel that a large fire would need to become a massive fire before it gets there.

Fighting fire with fire is a cliche for a reason lol. Most are.

Gorthax · January 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Once again, for all the sorcs who QQ about S&B being the only counter to S&B, that is not true. If you want a real counter, you should try 2hand / resto. Streak / Critical Charge / Curse combo drains the stamina really fast.

I have dueled many experienced players spec properly, with my S&B DK and there is no way I could beat them.

If I dare to go offensive, I die in 10-15 seconds.
If I focus on survivability, I can last 45 seconds top.

Your DK skills must be underdeveloped.

Said combo costs the sorc around 450 Magicka and 200 Stam for the first use at least, in 7/7 light. If you want to pressure you have to repeat it in short sequence, means streak will cost double and no magicka regen for 4 seconds. So we are at 700 Magicka and 200 Stam for the follow up combo.

With s&b and def stance/absorb on bar you pay around a 100 stam per block without block reduc rings. So the first time the combo hits you trade 300 stam for 450 Mag and 200 stam - you win. Follow up combo you win by an even larger margin ressourcewise.

A full light sorc`s stam pool rarely exceeds 1.6k. Nonetheless he also has to waste stam offensively to pressure you and additionally pays a higher price for blocking than you do with s&b. Let`s say we go another route and assume the sorc is wearing some medium pieces to reduce the crit charge cost, his magicka expenses increase dramatically (5l/2m: 600 Magicka & 180 Stam first combo, 950 Magicka & 180 Stam follow up). Since streak is essential to put on pressure, he would be out of magicka within seconds going full pressure mode.

If your stam pool and stam regen have decent values as s&b dk and if you know how to abuse cinderstorm to make the light/heavy weaves miss after charge, there is no chance the sorc can keep the pressure up.

You shouldn`t even be in need to pop GDB before the sorc has to switch resto to regain ressources. The damage done by unblockable curse 450 every 4 secs is a joke. 50 HP regen and Mutagen ticks alone neglect that damage almost completely. Damage shields and stuff not even accounted for.

Yawn, I seriously doubt you and the sorc were as experienced as you think.

There is always a counter to everything so you are not prouving anything by saying that there is a way to kill that sorc. Of course it is possible, because everything has a hard counter.

First of all, I am not resto, I am S&B + Destro. Second, I don't use Cinder Storm. Third, did I mention that Critical Charge hits for 950dmg even if I hold block? 950dmg. So if I dare to go offensive and forget to refresh Igneous Shield only one second, I'm screwed.

Another point, it is very easy for a sorc to stun a DK by streaking. A DK has to constantly weapon swap and it happens very often that I get caught off guard. If I get stunned by streak, I MUST cc break it otherwise I'm dead. That's already alot of stamina spent right there.

Once again, if you don't believe me, I challenge you to duel Skaffa ingame and talk to me about it after.

I'm not really in theory crafting so you kinda lost me with all your numbers. On the other side, I know how and when to use my abilities to be efficient and I have a good situation awareness in general. I have several recordings of me killing multiple vr14s in the same battle 1vX so I would not consider myself an unexperienced player.

lol to all of this most DKs do not have to weapon swap. It is a rare thing to see a DK weapon swap.

frozywozy · January 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Allright I'm a very bad DK and I make up numbers. For the other sorcs who are curious about how to kill a S&B DK, you can whisper me ingame and I will be glad to provide some guidance with my friend Skaffa who has a sorc on the AD side spec properly.

Have a good day.

i´m by far not an awsome Sorc (wave Derra (*●⁰ꈊ⁰●)ﾉ ) even though i have had my fair share of killed DKs but your numbers are totally out of line. all the amounts you listed are critical values wich simply do not happen in cyrodiil against anyone with half a braincell thx to impenetrable, shild spells and physical shields wich all negate any possible crit and on top blocking drastically lower the dmg dealt.

and as a small hint you can switch weapons while blocking

The numbers I have mentionned apply to me holding block with stamina.

The numbers I have mentionned apply to me without a shield up, as I mentionned in my post.

Like I mentionned in one of my posts in this thread, there is a split second when you swap weapon that you lose your block stance. If you would pvp enough and if you would have a DK, you would understand this concept.

I swap weapon every second or two second on my DK and when fighting a sorc using streak, I get stunned often because of weapon swapping.

Also happens often to get stunned or disabled while fighting multiple enemies because random CCS can go through easily mid swap.

If you don't believe me, ask Sypher, got the confirmation from him.

Gorthax · January 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Allright I'm a very bad DK and I make up numbers. For the other sorcs who are curious about how to kill a S&B DK, you can whisper me ingame and I will be glad to provide some guidance with my friend Skaffa who has a sorc on the AD side spec properly.

Have a good day.

i´m by far not an awsome Sorc (wave Derra (*●⁰ꈊ⁰●)ﾉ ) even though i have had my fair share of killed DKs but your numbers are totally out of line. all the amounts you listed are critical values wich simply do not happen in cyrodiil against anyone with half a braincell thx to impenetrable, shild spells and physical shields wich all negate any possible crit and on top blocking drastically lower the dmg dealt.

and as a small hint you can switch weapons while blocking

The numbers I have mentionned apply to me holding block with stamina.

The numbers I have mentionned apply to me without a shield up, as I mentionned in my post.

Like I mentionned in one of my posts in this thread, there is a split second when you swap weapon that you lose your block stance. If you would pvp enough and if you would have a DK, you would understand this concept.

I swap weapon every second or two second on my DK and when fighting a sorc using streak, I get stunned often because of weapon swapping.

Also happens often to get stunned or disabled while fighting multiple enemies because random CCS can go through easily mid swap.

If you don't believe me, ask Sypher, got the confirmation from him.

That is your first mistake as a S&B DK. You dont weapon swap especially not every 1 to 2 seconds. Hold block call it good, continue to block cast. Doing that I bet will increase your kill to death ratio. However, if permablock casting LOLZ QQ maker does not tickle your fancy as a play style then I fully commend you!! No sarcasm! Seriously, kudos to you!

frozywozy · January 2015

Gorthax wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Allright I'm a very bad DK and I make up numbers. For the other sorcs who are curious about how to kill a S&B DK, you can whisper me ingame and I will be glad to provide some guidance with my friend Skaffa who has a sorc on the AD side spec properly.

Have a good day.

i´m by far not an awsome Sorc (wave Derra (*●⁰ꈊ⁰●)ﾉ ) even though i have had my fair share of killed DKs but your numbers are totally out of line. all the amounts you listed are critical values wich simply do not happen in cyrodiil against anyone with half a braincell thx to impenetrable, shild spells and physical shields wich all negate any possible crit and on top blocking drastically lower the dmg dealt.

and as a small hint you can switch weapons while blocking

The numbers I have mentionned apply to me holding block with stamina.

The numbers I have mentionned apply to me without a shield up, as I mentionned in my post.

Like I mentionned in one of my posts in this thread, there is a split second when you swap weapon that you lose your block stance. If you would pvp enough and if you would have a DK, you would understand this concept.

I swap weapon every second or two second on my DK and when fighting a sorc using streak, I get stunned often because of weapon swapping.

Also happens often to get stunned or disabled while fighting multiple enemies because random CCS can go through easily mid swap.

If you don't believe me, ask Sypher, got the confirmation from him.

That is your first mistake as a S&B DK. You dont weapon swap especially not every 1 to 2 seconds. Hold block call it good, continue to block cast. Doing that I bet will increase your kill to death ratio. However, if permablock casting LOLZ QQ maker does not tickle your fancy as a play style then I fully commend you!! No sarcasm! Seriously, kudos to you!

If you think that a DK doesn't have to weapon swap, then I don't know what else to say, guess I'm done with you.

Once again, have a good day sir.

Derra · January 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Allright I'm a very bad DK and I make up numbers. For the other sorcs who are curious about how to kill a S&B DK, you can whisper me ingame and I will be glad to provide some guidance with my friend Skaffa who has a sorc on the AD side spec properly.

Have a good day.

i´m by far not an awsome Sorc (wave Derra (*●⁰ꈊ⁰●)ﾉ ) even though i have had my fair share of killed DKs but your numbers are totally out of line. all the amounts you listed are critical values wich simply do not happen in cyrodiil against anyone with half a braincell thx to impenetrable, shild spells and physical shields wich all negate any possible crit and on top blocking drastically lower the dmg dealt.

and as a small hint you can switch weapons while blocking

The numbers I have mentionned apply to me holding block with stamina.

The numbers I have mentionned apply to me without a shield up, as I mentionned in my post.

Like I mentionned in one of my posts in this thread, there is a split second when you swap weapon that you lose your block stance. If you would pvp enough and if you would have a DK, you would understand this concept.

I swap weapon every second or two second on my DK and when fighting a sorc using streak, I get stunned often because of weapon swapping.

Also happens often to get stunned or disabled while fighting multiple enemies because random CCS can go through easily mid swap.

If you don't believe me, ask Sypher, got the confirmation from him.

In all seriousness. I have no idea how anybody will hit for 950 dmg with crit charge on block.
Every other bit you say is correct. But your dmg numbers are beyond anything i have ever seen in pvp. They are not off by a bit from everything i have encountered or seen myself - 950 dmg on block with a therefor noncrit critcharge has to be atleast double of what i have seen so far.

If this was possible you´d see a lot more ppl running 2h.

Edit: As i mentioned there is a bug where the block animation is displayed but you don´t get the block benefits. Then i could see 950 dmg happen. This would be inconsistent though.
Regular 800+ dmg hits through block with a blockable ability is just something i have not seen a single time since release.