Should Cyrodiil buffs carry over into PvE?

AnteCoyote · January 2015

I've been thinking about this for a while. Being both a PvP and PvE player, I like to home in Thornblade, where any alliance rarely has any meaningful buffs for very long. Even having no Cyrodiil buffs, end game content isn't a problem for me. Without the extra crit chance and health, I can still pull decent DPS and tank effectively. I'm not the absolute cutting edge when it comes to DPS, but it still gets me through dungeons, trials, and on a leaderboard or two. Obviously, the PvE content is balanced in such a way that it is possible without Cyrodiil buffs, which are just a bonus that also allows for faster trial times.

Now, with the trial leaderboards being ranked differently in 1.6 and presumably being wiped, now would be the time to remove the Cyrodiil buffs and put competitive PvE players on an equal level whether or not they choose to home in a buff campaign or the other alliances have decided to take their buffs from them.

So, what are the benefits of removing the buffs from PvE? PvP players would no longer be pressured into homing on dead campaigns just to be the most effective they can be in PvE. PvE players would not be expected to fight for buffs in PvP to stay competitive. There would be no need to hold an entire map in PvP campaigns and the populations may even out in the lower population campaigns once PvP is all about PvP.

But shouldn't good performance in PvP be rewarded? Of course. The buffs should stay, but remain in Cyrodiil only, in my opinion. The buffs, especially the emperor alliance health buffs, are a wonderful reward when you get them, and they do help out a bit in defending from the inevitable double teaming from the non-emperor alliances. In active PvP campaigns, the buffs don't last very long. You should never expect to have these buffs. In buff campaigns, you can lose every single buff you had over the course of a dungeon run, as well. I feel like if you are doing PvP, you should be rewarded in PvP. If you are doing PvE and just homing in a buff campaign, assuming that others will work to keep your buffs and the campaign will remain uncontested, do you really deserve those buffs anyway? And even if they were gone, what's so bad about being on level footing with other players no matter what campaign they choose to home in?

There are benefits to the buffs being available in PvE, such as promoting PvP from PvE players, but I feel like, for the most part, what they end up doing is PvE anyway. Of course some people do defend buff servers, but when large, organized groups decide to take a buff server, they generally succeed and people wait for them to leave before taking the buffs back anyway.

So, obviously my opinion on the matter is clear. What does everyone else think? Any arguments for keeping things the way they are?

Cody · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

NO.

It causes people to ruin the game for others and makes the people in PvP that DONT do it just for the buffs look bad(for an example go find my comments in the haderus thread where I rage like an a*** at lacidon, whom I believed was one of those despicable people)

Not only that, but people DO NOT need PvP buffs for the PvE content. Iv done everything save vet CoA and the trials without PvP buffs(and even with the trials, I managed to get a good way thru AA with a group where half of us were below VR6, with no PvP buffs. I am sure a high vet level team can do it without PvP buffs) and the only reason I have yet to do vet CoA is I have yet to find a group for it.

Anyone that claims they need PvP buffs for the PvE content really needs to practice and get better at the game. PvP buffs out to just be removed outright in my opinion. They are a plague on ESO and have caused way too much drama and demoralization.

AnteCoyote · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

Cody wrote: »

Not only that, but people DO NOT need PvP buffs for the PvE content. Iv done everything save vet CoA and the trials without PvP buffs(and even with the trials, I managed to get a good way thru AA with a group where half of us were below VR6, with no PvP buffs. I am sure a high vet level team can do it without PvP buffs) and the only reason I have yet to do vet CoA is I have yet to find a group for it.

Trials are 100%, totally doable without PvP buffs. With a good team that knows what they are doing and are properly geared, PvP buffs really only mean finishing them a bit faster. Some people may spec themselves assuming they'll receive a emperor health buff, but they can easily spec away from DPS a bit to get their health up to the required levels for survival, like I do (all stats into health, everything else into stamina).

Roechacca · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

Yes because the forum arguments and stories are entertaining . Also , I really pvp so any buffs I get from Thornblade are deserved on my DC Alts im leveling . I put in the work an didn't whine when the go away .

Cody · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

AnteCoyote wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Not only that, but people DO NOT need PvP buffs for the PvE content. Iv done everything save vet CoA and the trials without PvP buffs(and even with the trials, I managed to get a good way thru AA with a group where half of us were below VR6, with no PvP buffs. I am sure a high vet level team can do it without PvP buffs) and the only reason I have yet to do vet CoA is I have yet to find a group for it.

Trials are 100%, totally doable without PvP buffs. With a good team that knows what they are doing and are properly geared, PvP buffs really only mean finishing them a bit faster. Some people may spec themselves assuming they'll receive a emperor health buff, but they can easily spec away from DPS a bit to get their health up to the required levels for survival, like I do (all stats into health, everything else into stamina).

and there we have it.

PvP buffs are not needed for PvE, therefore, they should either stay in PVP, or just go.

ToRelax · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

ZOS is slow when they do something so I just hope in this case they just act a bit slower than usual.

Roechacca · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

Keep in mind that if you take away all the interest for PvE players to pvp , the collection data bots that tell the company what activities players participate in will start showing lower results for pvp . This usually means even less devolpment time for pvp content . You maybe cutting off your nose to spite your face here . Just a thought . We already get next to no attention already ...

Fissh · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

I love more health/crit/damage as much as the next person. I also enjoy pvp'ing. Removing the 'imaginary' need I have for my "home" buffs will make my decision clear on where to truly home campaign for that actual benefit of being on a pvp leaderboard. Sure, this is my decision for the benefit of buffs in PvE, as PvE is my main hobby. I understand that. However, for me and what I assume to be many, removing the option opens me up to commit to a campaign. Thus, getting me into that campaign more often with more incentive....end of campaign reward. Too many options confuse the choices, just my opinion.
Clarity with direction, removing such options, will only benefit campaign stability. This is a more than obvious logical sensible reasonable rational solution

NordJitsu · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

"PvE players would not be expected to fight for buffs to stay competitive."

Exactly why I want them to stay. I don't think Cyrodiil should be a separate game. It should have effects on the whole world. It's already overly segregated for my taste and most of what you do in PvP is meaningless as a result.

Players, all players, should care about what happens in Cyrodiil. Buffs are one of the only ways to make that happen.

If people don't like the idea of buff campaigns then home somewhere other than TB where another alliance is dominant and take it away from them.

Artemiisia · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

I voted yes, because of a couple of things:

it do nut harm pvp players, that pve players have them, so let them/us enjoy them
its an incentive for pve players to do pvp, and even learn to like it, I have for one, now I play pvp in thornblade that dont have the buffs that often.
the buffs even at Azure Star right now, aint really on all the time, so again pve players need to do pvp if they want them.

ToRelax · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

roechacca wrote: »

Keep in mind that if you take away all the interest for PvE players to pvp , the collection data bots that tell the company what activities players participate in will start showing lower results for pvp . This usually means even less devolpment time for pvp content . You maybe cutting off your nose to spite your face here . Just a thought . We already get next to no attention already ...

Artemiisia wrote: »

I voted yes, because of a couple of things:
it do nut harm pvp players, that pve players have them, so let them/us enjoy them

its an incentive for pve players to do pvp, and even learn to like it, I have for one, now I play pvp in thornblade that dont have the buffs that often.

the buffs even at Azure Star right now, aint really on all the time, so again pve players need to do pvp if they want them.

(I just answer you two together if you think a statement of mine does only fit to the other quote treat it as if I only reacted to that one with it.)

No, I think you are wrong here.
Buff server mechanichs do harm PvP. They push PvP players away from those servers to the more crowded ones, into the lag and finally out of the game. Because few really want to fight constantly against a heavily overpopulated faction that tries to kill PvP rather than encourage it. It's just no fun in long term.

You say they don't care much about PvP already, but removing PvP buffs from PvE would already be caring for PvP a bit more.

It is also a way to make terrible PvE PvP (edit) players, those who "protect" their buff servers won't get better with just being farmed over and over again and certainly won't ask the PvPers nicely for advice often. Some may become decent players in PvP but there is no evidence that those wouldn't try PvP at some point without those buffs anyway. In my guild I have an achievement hunter who entered Cyrodiil to farm the PvP achievements, thats a way to get PvEers into PvP without harming PvP.

And please, who is happy about a huge zerg of PvEers nightcapping their buffcampaigns when someone takes over and tells me they get to love PvP with that? Most probably didn't kill a single player in their ESO life by themselves...

badmojo · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

No, because it actually feels like you're inhabiting a living world when you see a flood of PvE'ers coming into the campaign when a message is thrown on their screen. Removing the buffs will make it just like any other game, servers for this, servers for that. No community interaction between the two.

Perichor · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

the buffs dont apply to pvpers
so the buffs should not belong to pvers

ToRelax · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

badmojo wrote: »

No, because it actually feels like you're inhabiting a living world when you see a flood of PvE'ers coming into the campaign when a message is thrown on their screen. Removing the buffs will make it just like any other game, servers for this, servers for that. No community interaction between the two.

Oh, I would agree to that if there was just one Cyrodiil. But you can just choose one. If some PvEers would try making Thornblade a buff server that would be "Immersion".
There already ARE servers for this (PvP) and that (buffs for PvE).

badmojo · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

ToRelax wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

No, because it actually feels like you're inhabiting a living world when you see a flood of PvE'ers coming into the campaign when a message is thrown on their screen. Removing the buffs will make it just like any other game, servers for this, servers for that. No community interaction between the two.

Oh, I would agree to that if there was just one Cyrodiil. But you can just choose one. If some PvEers would try making Thornblade a buff server that would be "Immersion".
There already ARE servers for this (PvP) and that (buffs for PvE).

Except there's lots of PVP'ing on the so called buff servers. Also, why would any PvE'er home on Thornblade? That would be the dumbest thing they could possibly do. There isn't just one Cyrodiil, so imagining there was, is pointless. We have, what we have. In what we have, I enjoy the buffs carrying over to PvE because of things I've witnessed playing on Chillrend. I'm a firm believer that removing buffs in PvE will only hurt PvP.

ToRelax · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

badmojo wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

No, because it actually feels like you're inhabiting a living world when you see a flood of PvE'ers coming into the campaign when a message is thrown on their screen. Removing the buffs will make it just like any other game, servers for this, servers for that. No community interaction between the two.

Oh, I would agree to that if there was just one Cyrodiil. But you can just choose one. If some PvEers would try making Thornblade a buff server that would be "Immersion".
There already ARE servers for this (PvP) and that (buffs for PvE).

Except there's lots of PVP'ing on the so called buff servers. Also, why would any PvE'er home on Thornblade? That would be the dumbest thing they could possibly do. There isn't just one Cyrodiil, so imagining there was, is pointless. We have, what we have. In what we have, I enjoy the buffs carrying over to PvE because of things I've witnessed playing on Chillrend. I'm a firm believer that removing buffs in PvE will only hurt PvP.

badmojo wrote: »

No, because it actually feels like you're inhabiting a living world when you see a flood of PvE'ers coming into the campaign when a message is thrown on their screen. Removing the buffs will make it just like any other game, servers for this, servers for that. No community interaction between the two.

I pointed out the inconsistency of your argument - you say the only thing the removal of PvP buffs in PvE would do is making ESO like every other game: servers for this and servers for that. But that is already the case. This system is being maintained by players, but supported by ZOS.

Sanct16 · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

badmojo wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

No, because it actually feels like you're inhabiting a living world when you see a flood of PvE'ers coming into the campaign when a message is thrown on their screen. Removing the buffs will make it just like any other game, servers for this, servers for that. No community interaction between the two.

Oh, I would agree to that if there was just one Cyrodiil. But you can just choose one. If some PvEers would try making Thornblade a buff server that would be "Immersion".
There already ARE servers for this (PvP) and that (buffs for PvE).

Except there's lots of PVP'ing on the so called buff servers. Also, why would any PvE'er home on Thornblade? That would be the dumbest thing they could possibly do. There isn't just one Cyrodiil, so imagining there was, is pointless. We have, what we have. In what we have, I enjoy the buffs carrying over to PvE because of things I've witnessed playing on Chillrend. I'm a firm believer that removing buffs in PvE will only hurt PvP.

There is barely PvP happening. Every now and then groups go there and farm some PvE heroes. After those groups left the PvE heroes paint the whole map to their colour again.

Roechacca · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

It would be nice to find a solution that pleases pvp'ers and attracts more people to pvp . I'm just not so sure this will do the trick . Maybe ... I've been wrong before but I doubt it .

daemonios · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

roechacca wrote: »

Keep in mind that if you take away all the interest for PvE players to pvp , the collection data bots that tell the company what activities players participate in will start showing lower results for pvp . This usually means even less devolpment time for pvp content . You maybe cutting off your nose to spite your face here . Just a thought . We already get next to no attention already ...

Sorry, not good enough a reason. If they put PvP development on hold for too long, players who only or mostly PvP will leave (i.e. less subscription money in the bank). And the result of the PvP/PvE tie-in is disastrous (dead campaigns which factions see as being "their" buff servers, and people crowding 1 or 2 campaigns where something actually happens).

AnteCoyote · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

There are plenty of reasons to play PvP even if you mainly PvE. Some of the PvP weapons and armor are really good and can only be bought with AP, there are two skill lines that can only be unlocked by ranking up in PvP, reward tier 3 gets you more gold, and the end of campaign rewards are very nice for the top 2%. I've always done both PvE and PvP and I've never needed buffs to convince me to do both.

Bouvin · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

I say yes.

But they need to find a solution to buff servers (that's not EP taking over haed

If there were only 1 campaign, the buffs would give some more incentive to win. BUt as it is, it's just "find an empty campaign and control it".

Roechacca · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

daemonios wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Keep in mind that if you take away all the interest for PvE players to pvp , the collection data bots that tell the company what activities players participate in will start showing lower results for pvp . This usually means even less devolpment time for pvp content . You maybe cutting off your nose to spite your face here . Just a thought . We already get next to no attention already ...

Sorry, not good enough a reason. If they put PvP development on hold for too long, players who only or mostly PvP will leave (i.e. less subscription money in the bank). And the result of the PvP/PvE tie-in is disastrous (dead campaigns which factions see as being "their" buff servers, and people crowding 1 or 2 campaigns where something actually happens).

Not a good enough reason for you but I challenge the op to put this poll in the PvE section and see the results . They pay the same money as you an I . ZOS always listens to the PVE community first . Pvp is a mere after thought .

Xexpo · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

This ongoing debate is like some sort of theological argument, and reeks of the territorial pissings of hardcore pvpers.
It has nothing to do with anything being wrong or broken with the game.
BUT IT MUST CHANGE CAUSE ABOMINATIONS!! RARQRW!

What is the downside exactly to these buffs carrying over to pve? (besides having to listen to "pvpers" moan about it)
Dead servers? is that why? How much more dead will they be if they take away the buffs?
I don't get it.
If you don't care about the buffs ... then... ya know... stop caring.

Seems like some people just want change just for the sake of making themselves happy.

I personally think the pvp/pve buff cross-over mechanic is cool. Wish more games had something similar.
I am in Cyrodiil whenever I'm not in a Trial or grinding Undaunted gear with my guilds. Honestly I feel like that isn't a strange thing, to play all aspects of a MMO just about equally.
I was homed on Chillrend when it used to be an EP buff server.
I love going back to Chillrend now when EP and AD are feeling frisky. Fighting for those buffs is fun ( and you sort of get that feeling of 'defending your kingdom' for all you rpers out there).

I am sorry that AS and Had got wrecked recently, although haderous was fun

.
Maybe spend less time in the forums trying to change the game and go kill some players instead... or just QQ.

disclaimer: this mini-rant was not directed at the OP or anyone in this thread specifically , it's more of a retort to this topic in general, as it's been getting lots of forum play recently

AnteCoyote · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

Bouvin wrote: »

I say yes.

But they need to find a solution to buff servers (that's not EP taking over haed

If there were only 1 campaign, the buffs would give some more incentive to win. BUt as it is, it's just "find an empty campaign and control it".

If there was only one campaign, no alliance would hold buffs for very long at all. Because these buffs people get faster times on trials, PvE guilds will move to whichever alliance is perceived as the strongest and try their hardest to get the buffs for themselves and away from other alliances to get higher up on PvE leaderboards.

I don't think which alliance you choose should put you in a stronger position in PvE content or it's rankings. Removing these buffs isn't "taking away" anything from PvE players. It's just leveling the playing field and making it so it's the player's gear and build that matter and now how much stuff their alliance has in Cyrodiil.

AnteCoyote · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

kaer426 wrote: »

This ongoing debate is like some sort of theological argument, and reeks of the territorial pissings of hardcore pvpers.
It has nothing to do with anything being wrong or broken with the game.
BUT IT MUST CHANGE CAUSE ABOMINATIONS!! RARQRW!

I know you said this isn't directed at me, but I feel like deflecting the arguments by basically calling us mad is a little uncalled for. Yeah, people are mad. It's not PvPers, though. The people I PvE with are always whining that they'll never see there precious buffs again and every time, here I am, homed on Thornblade, almost never having buffs, ready to take on any of this PvE content with or without the buffs.

MMOs have min/maxers. When the "max" in PvE requires your alliance to hold onto an entire PvP campaign, that hurts the game. Currently, it has created "buff campaigns". If they drop one campaign, the whole balance is shot. PvE players then must stack one alliance to get their buffs. Currently, the balance is already a little shot since EP is overpopulated and flowing into other PvP campaigns to, well, PvP, which is fine. They should. However, it breaks the buff campaign meta game for other alliances and gives EP a distinct advantage in scoreboards. It would be interesting to have PvP affect PvE in a more long-term manor, but as it stands, you can lose all of your buffs in 15 minutes and gain them back overnight. It's not about who is doing the best. It's about who is taking the other alliance off guard at that particular moment.

ToRelax · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

kaer426 wrote: »

I was homed on Chillrend when it used to be an EP buff server.
I love going back to Chillrend now when EP and AD are feeling frisky. Fighting for those buffs is fun ( and you sort of get that feeling of 'defending your kingdom' for all you rpers out there).

Yes, it can be fun, at least when you are outnumbered. Hopesfire EU was no fun the last month of the 1st period when we owned everything because the enemy just left.
And you know what? I had groups of RPers on "my" server several times during those 5 months and of whatever faction they were and whatever faction was dominating at that time, you can still "protect" them :P .

About the buffs, when we took over emperorship on Haderus over New Year's Eve, the empress decided to purposely take all buffs from AD for their "terrorizing of the server in the past". Good decision

!

We want to do PvP without lagging and zerging all the time and without outnumbering our opponents by far, there are 4 campaigns we can enter, two are lag&zerg, while on one (AS) we are even outnumbering our enemies, the other two campaigns are/were practically dead mainly due to buffs in PvE.
Of course I want them gone!

We do bring action to Haderus at times, along with other fellow EP, but I would rather fight with more even numbers and against better players then being zerged down with high population against a half dozen

.

(You don't even have to rant about this discussion if you have no arguments, that's pretty stupid. You can still give your vote, fine, but that's it. Please.)

Edit: repaired quote

Thejollygreenone · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

The real problem I see is that PvE players, if looking to compete in PvE, are almost forced to use their alliances respective buff campaign, instead of actually being able to enjoy PvE and PvP both to their fullest. (For some roles it's more forgiving to not use a buff server in PvE than others, though.)

Likewise PvP players who choose Thornblade as their home campaign because they prioritize their experience in PvP, they will face a permanent obstacle in trying to compete with PvE players to the fullest in such PvE situations while retaining their PvP experience.

Essentially you get to min/max in PvE, OR you get to have the full PvP experience of an active server and the buffs and rewards associated with it. As of now both isn't an option, unless alternating at different times :P

Some on this thread argue that buffs translating from PvP to PvE is good because it brings the two together. I would argue that the current implementation does quite the opposite, and separates the areas of play instead for exactly the reason I explain above.

I like the idea of buffs translating from PvP to PvE, but its current implementation is counter productive. If it could be changed but not removed to get the desired effect, that'd be great. If not, removing buffs from PvE might become necessary if the dev team wants its player base to be able to effectively play in either area of the game.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I know there is a problem, and a solution is necessary.

(Edited for clarity)

Domander · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

Azura's is currently a fine example of what would happen if pvp buffs were ever removed from the game. The buffs are currently stuck.

It would be bad. The buffs give a nice incentive for players to go to cyrodiil who might otherwise not care at all.

DDuke · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

How about...

PvP buffs become attached to keep/resource ownership, being granted to the guild that owns a keep/resource.

Projection:

Buffs servers are no more.
People care about keeps & defending more than zerging around.
Keeps get some real significance & character.
More sandboxy, player driven PvP.

This would require:

Being able to choose one guild which to represent.
More objectives around the map.

Xsorus · January 2015

Remove Cyrodiil buffs from PvE

The only way to fix having buff servers is to remove Guesting, or remove PvP buffs working in PvE

Domander · January 2015

Keep Cyrodiil buffs in PvE

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

The only way to fix having buff servers is to remove Guesting, or remove PvP buffs working in PvE

If you do this, you might as well take out 2 of the campaigns because there won't be enough players on them to do anything.

Oh wait, that would fix the "buff" server complaint too.

I guess it wouldn't be the only way, would it.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Should Cyrodiil buffs carry over into PvE?

Should Cyrodiil buffs carry over into PvE? 147 votes