lordrichter wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I am speaking specifically to ZOS development of features on ESO. There are many, MANY features that seem like they should just be part of the core game, such as inventory management add-ons, map add-ons, statistics add-ons, that I wonder if ZOS sees that there’s an add-on for a particular feature so they aren’t worrying about developing it as a part of the core game.

I surely hope this isn’t the case. It would be preferable for ZOS to take the most popular add-ons and implement those features into the core game so ALL players can have the benefit of those features without using 3rd party software.

Considering console players will not have access to add-ons it would seem imperative that they implement some of the design concepts as optional features of the game so that version has the playability of the PC version.

I mean... c’mon… Khajiit Speak is such a simple yet effective add-on. So much so that it makes NO sense that this wasn’t considered prior to full release and that it hasn’t been made a standard part of the game by now.

Anyone know ZOS’ official stance on adding the features of popular add-ons to the core game?

It's a touch more complicated than you are making it seem.

Certain add-ons would never be added to the UI, others should have been, others are in a grey area of "you can see why they should added, but you can also see why they shouldn't".

But Yes, certain features should have been incorporated into the UI, for example if you need to know when a boss is at a certain percentage in order to start dodging (certain quests/bosses), then the UI should have an option to show the enemy health as a percentage.

On the other hand, if certain features are incorporated then they would become mandatory to use (we all know people who won't play with others because they don't use addons), and that could spoil some peoples experience.

Others require updating, and you wouldn't want that taken out of the hands of the person who understands how the addon works.

Butr as I said, it's more complicated than it first appears.

I will offend people here, but I think of many add-ons as a crutch, but not for ZOS. For the players.

Yes, there are certain add-ons that could be added to the UI, and they might be thinking of adding them were it not that they were fully committed to the Console launch and the Console UI right now. There are some add-on improvements to inventory, banks, and stores that would not hurt if added to the game.

I am a long time opponent of combat information add-ons because of that first statement that I made to make sure y'all were in a proper post-holiday bad mood. I really don't want them in the game. Not even a little.

If you need to know that a boss is at a certain health so you can dodge, then yes, some indication, preferably not a number, should be present to tell you. The example was intentionally vague, but you probably do not need to know. You want to know. You can eye-ball the health bar like everyone else and estimate the %Health.

That is the real criteria that I see about the UI in this game, particularly the combat UI. Information that we need to know to play the game should be indicated in the UI and be included by ZOS. Information that we want to know... so that we can attack on cue, so that we know when buffs expire, so that we know how much damage we are doing... should not.

This ceaseless search for a pecking order, this need to establish who the better players are and, by extension, better people, is tiresome.

And, again, as a person who has had to use crutches for 47 years because I needed to, I object to the use of the term. It seeks a pecking order too. People who don't use crutches are better than people who do. They're more fortunate certainly but not better people.

There is no other way to interpret the use of this term. Yes, lots of people use it. Few people think. They don't mean anything bad but, once informed by someone with every right to object, you need to cut it out. Period.

As for the game, you can be the finest player ESO will ever see and it makes you no better in any important way than the worst player who ever played this game. Good at a game? Good for you! Bad at a game? Just kill yourself

Executive Summary: lose the bigotry and nix the nonsense. In a game absent all consequence it doesn't matter.

bellanca6561n wrote: »

And, again, as a person who has had to use crutches for 47 years because I needed to, I object to the use of the term. It seeks a pecking order too. People who don't use crutches are better than people who do. They're more fortunate certainly but not better people.

You should not be taking umbrage over the use of a common colloquialism, such as the term crutch in this thread.

It does not imply a pecking order in any manner of the context that it is being used. It does not imply that one person is "better people" than another. There is no elite or casual in that term, as used by either myself or the OP title.. It certainly does not refer to anyone in real-life who needs to use an assistive mobility device of any type.

Certain popular combat add-ons breed "habitual laziness" in the players who use them. They encourage people who do not need them to use them anyway. The add-ons, and what they do, represent an evil that seduces the player with promises of glorious successes at much reduced cost.

If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.

This is not just ESO. Other MMOs that I have played are filled with these things as add-on enhancements to the game.

Where I draw the line with Combat assistive devices is where they provide the player with an edge over those who do not use them. I am not saying that people are better for the use of them, they are probably worse. I am saying that no matter what add-on you use or have available during combat, none of them should provide more information than what comes naturally from the stock UI.

So, yeah, crutches. And, like real-life crutches, I don't want someone who does not need them coming along and bonking me on the head with one.

Elloa wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

I'm playing the game without a single Addons, and I'm very happy.

With all respect, does this mean everyone should play without add-ons and have the same experience as you?

No, I didn't meant more than what I wrote.
I though it was interesting to add my point of view to the discussion that the game - for some persons, like myself - is very enjoyable without any addons.

Thanks for a civil reply. I'm glad you enjoy the game without add-ons. Just don't ever try any, because you might find how much fun they can add, but also get the add-on headaches that go with them .

That's one of my main reasons to not use addons aswell. I really hate the headache that comes with it. I do it in game like WOW (and as little as I can), because you have some sort of mendatory addons if you wanna raid, but here... I prefer endure the badly designed area than having bugs and interference caused by addons that doesn't match with the current coding or are not updated anymore.

Gidorick wrote: »

I feel the same since I created my Khajiit character. The Khajiit-Speak add-on is such a simple add-on but it is INTEGRAL to my experience as a Khajiit that I think ZOS is doing a disservice to any player that is playing a Khajiit and they are not providing them with the experience they should be having.

You intrigue me sir. I'm planning to create a Khajiit alt in update6. What is this addon about?

The following conversation was with the same character. I simply turned on Khajiit speak and spoke to the NPC again.

WITHOUT Khajiit Speak


WITH Khajiit Speak


It's such a simple add-on and adds SO much to the feeling of being Khajiit.

I also have this add-on enabled JUST for my Khajiit character. It only activates when I play Dar-Ja'Taba.

Dar-Ja'Taba is an Ebonheart Khajiit. Feel free to add this one if Elloa joins the Pact. Ja'Taba is still young.

I won't get into the "Addons are a Crutch" debate, but I will say that ESO's Default UI leaves a lot to be desired.

A Few Examples that should be in the game with Zero Addons installed.

1) Everything in the UI should be moveable so we can adjust to our liking. Thankfully it has a scale option built in already.

2) Chat box needs work. A simple start would be an option to eliminate the background from fading. Some of us like the chat box to stay constant.

3) An option to lock our 3 attribute bars into a scaled size of our liking. As you build stats those bars get long and intrusive, especially if you have have your chat box down in the lower left hand corner. I put my chat box there out of habit because that's where old school mmo's had them.

4) Moveable and Scalable Buffs/ Debuffs. I still don't understand how this game doesn't show buffs or debuffs to start with.

I can live with no addons if those things were simply built into the default UI. As it is now, I run several addons to fix the things listed above.

I also have to admit I run a few more addons I don't actually need for convenience. ^.^

Ourorboros wrote: »

no matter what add-on you use or have available during combat, none of them should provide more information than what comes naturally from the stock UI.

You realize that add-ons exist only by permission from ZOS. And the things that can be done with add-ons are controlled and determined by ZOS, including what can be used in combat. I don't use combat add-ons but saying others shouldn't is a little silly, since the only reason those add-ons can even be created is by using information provided by ZOS.

I sure don't have a perfect solution for this add-on quandary, but I do think ZOS handled it poorly. Some add-ons like ADVANCEDFILTERS and AWESOMEGUILDSTORE just make it evident how bad the stock UI is. My favorite example of this poor design is the fact that, in a game heavily invested in questing, there is no way to view completed quests. Yet ZOS, in this forum, acknowledged this missing feature, and created a way completed quests can be viewed, provided someone uses the feature in an add-on.This shows ZOS is clearly advocating the use of add-ons, IMO. What seems like a double standard however, is to encourage add-on use but withhold any add-on support. The biggest problem with add-ons is when they break due to official patches.

Forum polls clearly show at least that the majority of forum posters are add-on users. We use them for various reasons. Obviously, all add-ons could not and should not be part of the UI, but I do think some of the most popular ones should be added as game options. Maybe not now, but at some point.

Maybe my evil plot is more sinister.

"ESO ain't done 'til FTC don't run"



I would agree that the AwesomeGuildStore has features that should be included in the base game. I will also argue that no one would be inconvenienced by Research Assistant being added to the base game.

Breaking add-ons is a fact of life. They could mitigate things like this by having a transition period before the remove something, but the fact is that the API is going to change over time and that will break add-ons. With the rapid deployment of features, it is going to break a lot. I write add-ons; the type that you can download and use yourself and the type that you will never get to use. I know that each Update requires that I will have to sit down and fix them.

You might have the burden of having to update your add-ons, sometimes waiting while the author updates it, if, in fact, the author is updating it. That is a luxury that I do not get. I have to update only 12 add-ons, but half of those won't get updated until I do the work.