Are Add-Ons a crutch for ZOS?

Gidorick · December 2014

I am speaking specifically to ZOS development of features on ESO. There are many, MANY features that seem like they should just be part of the core game, such as inventory management add-ons, map add-ons, statistics add-ons, that I wonder if ZOS sees that there’s an add-on for a particular feature so they aren’t worrying about developing it as a part of the core game.

I surely hope this isn’t the case. It would be preferable for ZOS to take the most popular add-ons and implement those features into the core game so ALL players can have the benefit of those features without using 3rd party software.

Considering console players will not have access to add-ons it would seem imperative that they implement some of the design concepts as optional features of the game so that version has the playability of the PC version.

I mean... c’mon… Khajiit Speak is such a simple yet effective add-on. So much so that it makes NO sense that this wasn’t considered prior to full release and that it hasn’t been made a standard part of the game by now.

Anyone know ZOS’ official stance on adding the features of popular add-ons to the core game?

s7732425ub17_ESO · December 2014

Get 100 of your friends to buy a monthly subscription to ESO. Get those friends to also recruit 100 of their friends to come pay for ESO. Then ZOS can hire 30 more programmers and implement all the features that addons currently provide.

ers101284b14_ESO · December 2014

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Get 100 of your friends to buy a monthly subscription to ESO. Get those friends to also recruit 100 of their friends to come pay for ESO. Then ZOS can hire 30 more programmers and implement all the features that addons currently provide.

I don't like using addons but since they are already there..... Would it really take 30 programmers to copy and paste? I mean essentially they could do that.

As far as a crutch. No I don't think so. I think they had a certain design in mind and that's what they wanted. They also understood that the straight MMO crowd might not accept it so they allowed add ons. But some of us like vanilla UI and that's ok too.

Gidorick · December 2014

Have there been ANY features added that were previously added with an add-on?

While I understand that every single feature can't be added because... well... gameplay design, but some seem so simple that it seems to be adding things that are missing and SHOULD have been included.

I actually don't care to use add-ons and the two I use are Khajiit Speak and an Inventory organizational tool.

Khajiit responses are in the 3rd person "Khajiit will find him for you". The inventory adds sub-categories. BOTH seem to be add-ons for things that should have been added in the original design of the game and have yet to be added to the core game.

Razzak · December 2014

It depends on who you ask, but for me, personally, they are a necessity. I know I wouldn't be able to play with as much enjoyment as I do, if there was nothing to change my skill sets. I can do it, but only because I use an add-on called Wykkyd's outfitter.
There are several others, that have also proven to make my playing either easier or more enjoyable. I am not concerned with immersion as I see that as a crutch which everyone uses when they feel like it and not because it was really needed.

Ourorboros · December 2014

Add-ons are a crutch for players, not ZOS. They are a boon for ZOS.

They allowed ZOS to ship a game with a stripped down UI, saving developer costs.
They get a PR selling point: "Look, you can customize the UI with add-ons."
They get a scapegoat for game problems: :"Are you using any add-ons?"
They have no cost or responsibility to maintain add-ons with patches.

Can't think of anymore at the moment, but feel free to add-on any other advantages ZOS gets from Add-ons.

bellanca6561n · December 2014

I object to the tile because I object to that figure of speech.

I've never known a person to use crutches who didn't need them.

It's sort of like the expression, confined to a wheelchair. Imagine the confinement a person without the use of their lower limbs would have without a wheelchair

Not trying to make anyone feel bad....I just prefer people to employ a bit more precision and thought when they communicate.

Gidorick · December 2014

@bellanca6561n‌ It means that ZOS is relying and depending on add-ons to offer support and functions that it is missing that it should have. The choice of words is applicable because some add-ons add functionality that ESO 100% absolutely should have... in other words... it needs them to offer a complete experience.

While you're more than welcome to disagree with the words I used, I don't feel bad and I don't think hijacking the point of this thread to talk about the semantics of a phrase is really helpful. Just because I didn't communicate with words that you don't find palatable doesn't mean I shouldn't use them to make my point.

"As a crutch" illustrates how I feel about add-ons perfectly and @Ourorboros‌ is right though, the crutch is the player's. I don't WANT to use add-ons but I feel I must in order to get a full experience.

zaria · December 2014

Add-ons are a simple way to get most people to get happy.
In short its two sort of players, one want loads of features on screen, the other want an clean interface.
Worse you have addons like resource maps and combat messages and logs who other calls exploits.
Even worse, in game content has to integrate better with the game than most addon does.
I know from personal experiences that adding lots of features to an UI adds a lot of bugs / features and that is web applications.

In short if they did not have addons but did everything in house we would loose out a lot of functions that is even if they added more resources to this.
More likely we might get an few features, nothing like the helper apps like research assistant and other stuff we have now.

dharbert · December 2014

Zenimax doesn't use addons as a crutch, players use addons as a crutch. I, however, am not one of them. I've got multiple max level characters and I've done every bit of content that can be done in this game without addons. Some are nice to have and make things easier, but they aren't necessary by any means.

Tandor · December 2014

A minimalist UI together with add-ons have always been a fundamental part of ES, and it was inconceivable that ESO would have been created with a more traditional MMORPG UI and no add-on facility.

The present setup offers the best of all worlds in that those who feel the need for add-ons can use them, while those who see no need for them can ignore them. I see no reason why ZOS would want to change that situation, and I personally hope they do not.

bellanca6561n · December 2014

Gidorick wrote: »

@bellanca6561n‌ It means that ZOS is relying and depending on add-ons to offer support and functions that it is missing that it should have. The choice of words is applicable because some add-ons add functionality that ESO 100% absolutely should have... in other words... it needs them to offer a complete experience.

While you're more than welcome to disagree with the words I used, I don't feel bad and I don't think hijacking the point of this thread to talk about the semantics of a phrase is really helpful. Just because I didn't communicate with words that you don't find palatable doesn't mean I don't shouldn't use them to make my point.

"As a crutch" illustrates how I feel about add-ons perfectly and @Ourorboros‌ is right though, the crutch is the player's. I don't WANT to use add-ons but I feel I must in order to get a full experience.

Not helpful to you, perhaps. And you would have used fewer words if it hadn't made you think. I would have preferred a more thoughtful and less defensive response but I didn't expect one.

We don't need more ways to make people feel badly - about how they want to play this game or what they need to get around.

Ourorboros · December 2014

dharbert wrote: »

Zenimax doesn't use addons as a crutch, players use addons as a crutch. I, however, am not one of them. I've got multiple max level characters and I've done every bit of content that can be done in this game without addons. Some are nice to have and make things easier, but they aren't necessary by any means.

Kinda hard to tell here for sure, but it seems like you think add-ons have no place in the game. I applaud you for accomplishing what you have without add-ons, but I don't think that makes other players wrong for wanting add-ons. The majority of add-ons I use are the ones that save my game time for questing and exploring, instead of housekeeping.

Tandor wrote: »

A minimalist UI together with add-ons have always been a fundamental part of ES, and it was inconceivable that ESO would have been created with a more traditional MMORPG UI and no add-on facility.

The present setup offers the best of all worlds in that those who feel the need for add-ons can use them, while those who see no need for them can ignore them. I see no reason why ZOS would want to change that situation, and I personally hope they do not.

Carrying over from my comments above, I think there is a distinct difference between a clean HUD and a minimalist system of menus for common transactions. People use add-ons like AWESOMEGUILDSTORE, SHOPKEEPER, and ADVANCEDFILTERS because they offer so much more functionality than the base UI. That is on ZOS for shipping what many feel is an under-developed UI in this area. Yes, we have add-ons that do the job, but add-ons present many problems, such as limiting great functionality to only the add-on users, and leaving those users at the mercy of add-on authors to keep said add-ons updated. It's all WIN for ZOS, but add-on users get the shaft.

Elloa · December 2014

I'm playing the game without a single Addons, and I'm very happy.

timidobserver · December 2014

I personally would prefer new additions. If there is an addon that does a good enough job, I can live with the addon until later and let them spend their time doing other stuff.

Ourorboros · December 2014

Elloa wrote: »

I'm playing the game without a single Addons, and I'm very happy.

With all respect, does this mean everyone should play without add-ons and have the same experience as you?

kongkim · December 2014

Hmm i would more like ZOS to make some new to the game and not something you alrady can get as a add-on.

timidobserver · December 2014

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Get 100 of your friends to buy a monthly subscription to ESO. Get those friends to also recruit 100 of their friends to come pay for ESO. Then ZOS can hire 30 more programmers and implement all the features that addons currently provide.

I don't like using addons but since they are already there..... Would it really take 30 programmers to copy and paste? I mean essentially they could do that.

As far as a crutch. No I don't think so. I think they had a certain design in mind and that's what they wanted. They also understood that the straight MMO crowd might not accept it so they allowed add ons. But some of us like vanilla UI and that's ok too.

My mind was blown when I read this. Do you really think that this is how development works. Just ignoring the fact that addons are copywritten and just stealing them would not fly, you really think that they can just copy and paste all of the addons they like into the default UI and that would be it?

Tandor · December 2014

Ourorboros wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

I'm playing the game without a single Addons, and I'm very happy.

With all respect, does this mean everyone should play without add-ons and have the same experience as you?

I very much doubt it means that. Whilst it's just one player's personal experience of the game, it underlines the view that not everyone considers the present UI to be inadequate, or plays therefore with add-ons, and that the present arrangement whereby people have a choice of sticking with the default UI or using add-ons is fine.

Ourorboros · December 2014

Tandor wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

I'm playing the game without a single Addons, and I'm very happy.

With all respect, does this mean everyone should play without add-ons and have the same experience as you?

I very much doubt it means that. Whilst it's just one player's personal experience of the game, it underlines the view that not everyone considers the present UI to be inadequate, or plays therefore with add-ons, and that the present arrangement whereby people have a choice of sticking with the default UI or using add-ons is fine.

As I see it, the problem with this approach is that only ZOS and non-add users are truly happy. First, ZOS encourages add-on use, going so far as to make the ability to customize the UI a selling point. If the add-on system was great, I would absolutely agree with your POV. Unfortunately, there are problems with add-ons, and those who like them basically get a kiss-off from those who don't use them, and from ZOS, who set up and encouraged the system to begin with.

Ommamar · December 2014

Since Morrorwind the ability of players to customize the game has been a part of the TES universe draw. If you don't like add-on don't use them, as to including them in an update as one poster mentioned you get in to all sorts of area of copy write and proprietary subjects. I think ZOS was smart enough to realize not everyone would like the original UI so they created a path to allow for player customization.
As to the console mentioned this has always been a trade off for users of those systems. Since there would be other parties involved besides ZOS it would be very difficult to get third party software approved by the console developers. Look at how long the consoles have been delayed, and that is with major developers trying to work things out.

Elloa · December 2014

Ourorboros wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

I'm playing the game without a single Addons, and I'm very happy.

With all respect, does this mean everyone should play without add-ons and have the same experience as you?

No, I didn't meant more than what I wrote.
I though it was interesting to add my point of view to the discussion that the game - for some persons, like myself - is very enjoyable without any addons.

Ourorboros · December 2014

Elloa wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

I'm playing the game without a single Addons, and I'm very happy.

With all respect, does this mean everyone should play without add-ons and have the same experience as you?

No, I didn't meant more than what I wrote.
I though it was interesting to add my point of view to the discussion that the game - for some persons, like myself - is very enjoyable without any addons.

Thanks for a civil reply. I'm glad you enjoy the game without add-ons. Just don't ever try any, because you might find how much fun they can add, but also get the add-on headaches that go with them

.

Gidorick · December 2014

I was in the camp of "We don't NEED add-ons" and I was playing the game "as designed". I'm the type of player that is less concerned with statistics and ratios and am more concerned with immersion and atmosphere. Then there were a few add-ons that I used that added to my own personal immersion, such as removing the compass, adding an "unexplored" fog to my map, a journal that LOOKS like a journal. All things I think would be NICE if they were built in, but I didn't think ZOS should spend the time adding them to the game.

Then this update then that update and my add-ons were reset and they became more trouble then they were worth, so I went to no add-ons. Played like that for a month or so.

Then I added Advanced Filters (an inventory add-on). While I was perfectly happy, like @Elloa‌, without that add-on, the addition of the add-on really puts a spotlight on just how poorly designed our inventory management system is.... This is one add-on that adds a function I think is MISSING from the game, not just a function I like to have in the game.

I feel the same since I created my Khajiit character. The Khajiit-Speak add-on is such a simple add-on but it is INTEGRAL to my experience as a Khajiit that I think ZOS is doing a disservice to any player that is playing a Khajiit and they are not providing them with the experience they should be having.

My preference is to not have any add-ons installed but there really are some add-ons that add functions that ESO should have. Couple this to the fact that the upcoming console players will NOT have access to add-ons and I feel like ZOS should be looking at these add-ons for features that can be added to the core ESO game.

Heck, why not "officialize" add-ons and buy them from the creator, if developer resources is an issue? Both the above mentioned add-ons are good to go to be in-game, right now.

Gidorick · December 2014

Ourorboros wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

I'm playing the game without a single Addons, and I'm very happy.

With all respect, does this mean everyone should play without add-ons and have the same experience as you?

No, I didn't meant more than what I wrote.
I though it was interesting to add my point of view to the discussion that the game - for some persons, like myself - is very enjoyable without any addons.

Thanks for a civil reply. I'm glad you enjoy the game without add-ons. Just don't ever try any, because you might find how much fun they can add, but also get the add-on headaches that go with them .

LOL. you guys have just pointed to my EXACT issue... I was happy without add-ons... then I tried them and found out how much they can add.

badmojo0777b14_ESO · December 2014

core Add Ons like....Khajit speak....

Harleyquincey · December 2014

Thing is.. not everyone would agree on what exactly they'd want in their favorite MMO. Myself, I use around 45 addons (give or take a few when they fall out of favor or new ones get released e.g.) constantly. One of them adds a Minimap to the game, despite being a singleplayer-TES-enthusiast. Why? Because I am extremely challenged when it comes to navigation, heck, I twice got lost in simple hallways (!) due to turning around too much during a fight

. I'm a constant victim of rightfully earned ridicule among my mates but without that addon? It'd be far, far worse on the outside e.g.

The same can be said for many an addon - Player X would love it, Player Y would not and they'd have to support and update all of it nevertheless.

So I think addons are a great addition and it's perfectly fine how it is handled right now

Elloa · December 2014

Ourorboros wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

I'm playing the game without a single Addons, and I'm very happy.

With all respect, does this mean everyone should play without add-ons and have the same experience as you?

No, I didn't meant more than what I wrote.
I though it was interesting to add my point of view to the discussion that the game - for some persons, like myself - is very enjoyable without any addons.

Thanks for a civil reply. I'm glad you enjoy the game without add-ons. Just don't ever try any, because you might find how much fun they can add, but also get the add-on headaches that go with them .

That's one of my main reasons to not use addons aswell. I really hate the headache that comes with it. I do it in game like WOW (and as little as I can), because you have some sort of mendatory addons if you wanna raid, but here... I prefer endure the badly designed area than having bugs and interference caused by addons that doesn't match with the current coding or are not updated anymore.

Gidorick wrote: »

I feel the same since I created my Khajiit character. The Khajiit-Speak add-on is such a simple add-on but it is INTEGRAL to my experience as a Khajiit that I think ZOS is doing a disservice to any player that is playing a Khajiit and they are not providing them with the experience they should be having.

You intrigue me sir. I'm planning to create a Khajiit alt in update6. What is this addon about?

AlexDougherty · December 2014

Gidorick wrote: »

I am speaking specifically to ZOS development of features on ESO. There are many, MANY features that seem like they should just be part of the core game, such as inventory management add-ons, map add-ons, statistics add-ons, that I wonder if ZOS sees that there’s an add-on for a particular feature so they aren’t worrying about developing it as a part of the core game.

I surely hope this isn’t the case. It would be preferable for ZOS to take the most popular add-ons and implement those features into the core game so ALL players can have the benefit of those features without using 3rd party software.

Considering console players will not have access to add-ons it would seem imperative that they implement some of the design concepts as optional features of the game so that version has the playability of the PC version.

I mean... c’mon… Khajiit Speak is such a simple yet effective add-on. So much so that it makes NO sense that this wasn’t considered prior to full release and that it hasn’t been made a standard part of the game by now.

Anyone know ZOS’ official stance on adding the features of popular add-ons to the core game?

It's a touch more complicated than you are making it seem.

Certain add-ons would never be added to the UI, others should have been, others are in a grey area of "you can see why they should added, but you can also see why they shouldn't".

But Yes, certain features should have been incorporated into the UI, for example if you need to know when a boss is at a certain percentage in order to start dodging (certain quests/bosses), then the UI should have an option to show the enemy health as a percentage.

On the other hand, if certain features are incorporated then they would become mandatory to use (we all know people who won't play with others because they don't use addons), and that could spoil some peoples experience.

Others require updating, and you wouldn't want that taken out of the hands of the person who understands how the addon works.

Butr as I said, it's more complicated than it first appears.

kevlarto_ESO · December 2014

I played from level 1 to vr14 with no add-ons, I decided to try a couple after vr14, I tried them found they are really not all that, I think maybe more of a crutch for players and just a pain for ZOS, I believe a lot of issues people have with the game are caused by add-ons out of date, and the lack of the mod community to keep them updated, just my personal opinion.

Elsonso · December 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I am speaking specifically to ZOS development of features on ESO. There are many, MANY features that seem like they should just be part of the core game, such as inventory management add-ons, map add-ons, statistics add-ons, that I wonder if ZOS sees that there’s an add-on for a particular feature so they aren’t worrying about developing it as a part of the core game.

I surely hope this isn’t the case. It would be preferable for ZOS to take the most popular add-ons and implement those features into the core game so ALL players can have the benefit of those features without using 3rd party software.

Considering console players will not have access to add-ons it would seem imperative that they implement some of the design concepts as optional features of the game so that version has the playability of the PC version.

I mean... c’mon… Khajiit Speak is such a simple yet effective add-on. So much so that it makes NO sense that this wasn’t considered prior to full release and that it hasn’t been made a standard part of the game by now.

Anyone know ZOS’ official stance on adding the features of popular add-ons to the core game?

It's a touch more complicated than you are making it seem.

Certain add-ons would never be added to the UI, others should have been, others are in a grey area of "you can see why they should added, but you can also see why they shouldn't".

But Yes, certain features should have been incorporated into the UI, for example if you need to know when a boss is at a certain percentage in order to start dodging (certain quests/bosses), then the UI should have an option to show the enemy health as a percentage.

On the other hand, if certain features are incorporated then they would become mandatory to use (we all know people who won't play with others because they don't use addons), and that could spoil some peoples experience.

Others require updating, and you wouldn't want that taken out of the hands of the person who understands how the addon works.

Butr as I said, it's more complicated than it first appears.

I will offend people here, but I think of many add-ons as a crutch, but not for ZOS. For the players.

Yes, there are certain add-ons that could be added to the UI, and they might be thinking of adding them were it not that they were fully committed to the Console launch and the Console UI right now. There are some add-on improvements to inventory, banks, and stores that would not hurt if added to the game.

I am a long time opponent of combat information add-ons because of that first statement that I made to make sure y'all were in a proper post-holiday bad mood.

I really don't want them in the game. Not even a little.

If you need to know that a boss is at a certain health so you can dodge, then yes, some indication, preferably not a number, should be present to tell you. The example was intentionally vague, but you probably do not need to know. You want to know. You can eye-ball the health bar like everyone else and estimate the %Health.

That is the real criteria that I see about the UI in this game, particularly the combat UI. Information that we need to know to play the game should be indicated in the UI and be included by ZOS. Information that we want to know... so that we can attack on cue, so that we know when buffs expire, so that we know how much damage we are doing... should not.