"The change to making the ultimate generation buff proc only on light attacks/healing those with the buff rewards one type of play style while discouraging others. They said themselves that they found it unfair that tanker players generate little ultimate. As many have already argued, tanker players don’t use light attacks as that opens themselves up to taking significantly larger damage with their block down."


yup this sucks, since now I would still generate ulti while blockbasting, but with the new system I HAVE TO do light attacks so tanks are screwed ...and the rest of the issues to with the new system mentioned, sometimes the changes made from zeni really baffle me how bad they're thought out...

They should just remove the whole ultimate generation on attacks, change it into a constant stream (while in combat) and make finesse an extension of that stream.

To make you understand, lets throw out some random numbers

With this change : While in combat you generate 2ult/sec,
so to use an ultimate ability which cost 200 ultimate (for instance) you need to fight about 100sec before you are able to get to the requierement cost.

But you can also use finesse to increase the rate at which you get your ultimate available.
For instance, lets say you earn 5 ult each time you use finesse (finesse = succesfull interupts/dodge/exploits weakness/etc).
In this case : "If your target use a power attack against you, you shield bash it (earn 5ult/ for interupting) and you heavy attack it (earn 5ult/ again for exploiting its weakness), you will earn 10ult/ for the basic Interupt/exploit combo."

So instead of having to fight 100sec to get to the requierement cost, you only have to fight for 90sec anymore and even less if you further use the basic mechanics accordingly.

And in my honest oppinion, it seems a much more balanced approach and it follows a similar philosophy to the devs current ideas of revamp. But instead of oversimplifying it and making the generation rotational, it makes skillfull play still an important factor in the game.

"Right now on live, Ultimate generation is really confusing, because there are a lot of systems like blocking, dodging, damaging, and healing which all generate ultimate."

Did ZOS really say that!? Blocking and dodging don't earn Ultimate. Empowering Sweep only costs 72 ultimate but it takes my tank, who blocks and dodges all the time, a good minute or two between activations. And I think that 72 ultimate is all coming from Inner Beast and Blazing Shield doing some minor damage, not blocking or dodging!

Dropping block to do a light/heavy attack every 8 seconds will be suicide for tanks.

Please add ultimate generation to taunting similar to light attacks. Something like, "3 ultimate per second while 1 or more NPCs are taunted."

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

They should just remove the whole ultimate generation on attacks, change it into a constant stream (while in combat) and make finesse an extension of that stream.

To make you understand, lets throw out some random numbers

With this change : While in combat you generate 2ult/sec,
so to use an ultimate ability which cost 200 ultimate (for instance) you need to fight about 100sec before you are able to get to the requierement cost.

But you can also use finesse to increase the rate at which you get your ultimate available.
For instance, lets say you earn 5 ult each time you use finesse (finesse = succesfull interupts/dodge/exploits weakness/etc).
In this case : "If your target use a power attack against you, you shield bash it (earn 5ult/ for interupting) and you heavy attack it (earn 5ult/ again for exploiting its weakness), you will earn 10ult/ for the basic Interupt/exploit combo."

So instead of having to fight 100sec to get to the requierement cost, you only have to fight for 90sec anymore and even less if you further use the basic mechanics accordingly.

And in my honest oppinion, it seems a much more balanced approach and it follows a similar philosophy to the devs current ideas of revamp. But instead of oversimplifying it and making the generation rotational, it makes skillfull play still an important factor in the game.

Did you hear that part where they said that they want to make the ultimate generation in this game be comprehensible to people that can't really understand the intricacies of a 3 stat rpg system? Your system is way beyond that level even though it is still as bad as the thing they want to do .

Ultimate generation speed should be a matter of choice in a build and should have its own rewards and consequences. At the moment this is the case since the fastest ultimate generation build are not always the best DPS. Also some roles should have different ultimate generation. There are reasons why a tank shouldn't generate ultimate like a DPS.

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

"Right now on live, Ultimate generation is really confusing, because there are a lot of systems like blocking, dodging, damaging, and healing which all generate ultimate."

Did ZOS really say that!? Blocking and dodging don't earn Ultimate. Empowering Sweep only costs 72 ultimate but it takes my tank, who blocks and dodges all the time, a good minute or two between activations. And I think that 72 ultimate is all coming from Inner Beast and Blazing Shield doing some minor damage, not blocking or dodging!

Dropping block to do a light/heavy attack every 8 seconds will be suicide for tanks.

Please add ultimate generation to taunting similar to light attacks. Something like, "3 ultimate per second while 1 or more NPCs are taunted."

This is ridiculous, if droping your shield to swing a single time, every 8sec, on a target is suicide you need to ask yourself why your build can't take that swing without blocking, and why can't you land a blow between attack frames when most ennemies swings every 2sec...

It should not matter if you are tanking with 10000 armor and 4000 health or tanking naked with 1000 health. The entire concept of, "Tanks must drop block every 8 seconds to gain ultimate," is ridiculous. What if they made it where DPS had to stop doing damage every 8 seconds and drop a heal to gain ultimate? Or healers had to stop healing every 8 seconds and block a power attack to gain ultimate? You are basically making tanks stop tanking every 8 seconds to gain ultimate! How does that make any sense?

And what about when we are tanking multiple enemies? Like a council style boss battle, or a boss and several dangerous adds that I don't want to leave loose to run after the healer? Dropping block every 8 seconds is inevitably going to lead to more damage and, even if not fatal, now smart heals will be wasted on the tank that would have been better spent on the other members of the group.

ZoS - please read the OP.

We (mostly) liked your original intention of ultimate based on skillful play. Why stray from this design and TRY (you will fail) to put all of us, the skilled and the sucked, the same?

I think I can speak for the entire community in that it was admirable that you wanted to make ultimate generation fair for tanks. This was needed. To do this, you are asking them to make a light attack? Huh? I understand that a decent tank SHOULD be able to squeeze in a light attack at some point every 8 seconds but that's the problem: the have to "squeeze" in something DPS and heals do naturally. And if you think the tank will generate as much ultimate as my Resto secondary weapon funnel health nightblade who uses carve, you really need to either reconsider this system or explain it to us better how ultimate is gained.
- The better solution is to simply reward tanks ultimate for damage mitigation, number of enemies engaged, interrupts...you know, things a skillful tank would do and something that is commensurate with your original good idea.

I think I can speak for most of us that ultimate general via healing out of combat was highly dubious. While I will miss prepping my ultimate, this step will better the game.

I'm not sure the old system of tying critical hits to ultimate gain was the best, but surely you can devise something better than awarding the same amount of ultimate to someone who does 10000000 damage to 100000 enemies as someone who does 10 damage to 1 enemy. Somewhere the is a nice balance between the AoE spammer who, even if many people may dislike their style, nevertheless makes a legitimate contribution to a team's success and the single-target lock-down specialist who prefers to neutralize foes as opposed to merely damaging them. I ma paying you $15 a month to come up with this. Please go back to the drawing board.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Wouldnt it be simpler to just say "everyone gets 3 ultimate per second while in combat"?

Simplier? Yes. More fun? No.

I've put a lot of work into creating a build that generates rapid ultimates (lot's Fighter's Guild passives, Siphoning passives that generate ulitmates from Soul Siphon); I also carryDeath Stroke which passively increases Ultimate charge on kills. It's hardly a disparity (in an unfair sense) if I've given up on other bonuses for a particular build.

How is all this going to be affected by the new system; will they remain in place or am I going to be severely penalised?

I really think smart play can be summed up as how much health you can maintain throughout a fight. Although I think blocking power attacks, interrupting, etc should be rewarded with ultimate generation, a good way to implement the general idea of gaining ultimate for skillful play is a basic generation in combat, which is diminished when you lose health. Let's say you gain 5/s at 100% health, 4/s at 80%, 3/s at 60%, 2/s at 40% and 1/s at 20%, none below that.
This means a good tank will generate ultimate just for doing a good job, and a good healer will ensure the whole group generates their maximum ultimate.

The new system should have a good effect on tanks that aren't always stuck behind block. This game has really made tanking easy where players didn't really have to learn the timing of attacks (all though the timing is messed up on a lot of attacks damage registering right at the beginning of animations). Coming from Tera as my last MMO, what they are doing is nothing that sounds that detrimental to tanks. Lancers in Tera had to learn when to block as they couldn't attack at the same time, people got to the point where they had block up for less then a second and then continued attacking. While this system isn't as smooth as Tera was, you can still learn when damage is being applied by enemies and time your attacks so you wont get hit by their attacks.

While I do think there should still be builds that can focus on ultimate gain to be able to use them more frequently, the method they currently have really didn't promote "skill full" playing. The system promoted basically maximizing damage, and critical rate / status effects (burning)... This concept didn't add anything to the game other then allowing some builds to throw down ultimates extremely fast. Choosing the right passives ( champion passives too), armor sets, and skills should play a greater roll then tacking on ultimate gain on to what players will already be doing, as this will mean you are sacrificing something in order to gain increased ultimate use.

PBpsy wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

They should just remove the whole ultimate generation on attacks, change it into a constant stream (while in combat) and make finesse an extension of that stream.

To make you understand, lets throw out some random numbers

With this change : While in combat you generate 2ult/sec,
so to use an ultimate ability which cost 200 ultimate (for instance) you need to fight about 100sec before you are able to get to the requierement cost.

But you can also use finesse to increase the rate at which you get your ultimate available.
For instance, lets say you earn 5 ult each time you use finesse (finesse = succesfull interupts/dodge/exploits weakness/etc).
In this case : "If your target use a power attack against you, you shield bash it (earn 5ult/ for interupting) and you heavy attack it (earn 5ult/ again for exploiting its weakness), you will earn 10ult/ for the basic Interupt/exploit combo."

So instead of having to fight 100sec to get to the requierement cost, you only have to fight for 90sec anymore and even less if you further use the basic mechanics accordingly.

And in my honest oppinion, it seems a much more balanced approach and it follows a similar philosophy to the devs current ideas of revamp. But instead of oversimplifying it and making the generation rotational, it makes skillfull play still an important factor in the game.

Did you hear that part where they said that they want to make the ultimate generation in this game be comprehensible to people that can't really understand the intricacies of a 3 stat rpg system? Your system is way beyond that level even though it is still as bad as the thing they want to do .

I've heard it and I don't care if people are capable/willing to comprehend it or not. The current mechanics are far from difficult in this game, the difficulty level already has been reduced to almost nothing and promotes mindless AoE spam + block because of it. If people for once can't follow the very basics of a game they should loose or at least be handicaped for it.

PBpsy wrote: »

Ultimate generation speed should be a matter of choice in a build and should have its own rewards and consequences. At the moment this is the case since the fastest ultimate generation build are not always the best DPS. Also some roles should have different ultimate generation. There are reasons why a tank shouldn't generate ultimate like a DPS.

No, ultimate generation should be a matter of skill and not some mindless block spam like Siphoning builds are about. It's about balance, ultimates are not your bread and butter abilties, they are supposed to be powerfull and situational abilities turning the tide of a battle and are in no ways supposed to be used like they currently are.

You say my system is bad, then why? Because people playing the game with every tools at their disposal to counter ennemies get rewarded? Does it got flaws that can be exploited, yes! Can those flaws be prevented with some good insight of the game mechanics, definitly yes!

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Some issues I have with the system:

• The change to making the ultimate generation buff proc only on light attacks/healing those with the buff rewards one type of play style while discouraging others. They said themselves that they found it unfair that tanker players generate little ultimate. As many have already argued, tanker players don’t use light attacks as that opens themselves up to taking significantly larger damage with their block down.
• Battle Roar passive. I don’t even play a DK, but I understand that the only major class sustainability of DK’s relies entirely on smart ultimate generation. While they may (and those of the community as well) consider ultimate generation to be out of control resulting in this passives overpoweredness, this seems to be a strong overcompensation. This means that (without pots, heavy attacks, or spell symmetry), DKs will be out of resources until that 1:07 passes by.
• Lack of skill involved with the system. If a smart player and a dumb player both use the same skills, but the smart player actively blocks, dodge rolls, counters, and evades attacks, they both will be generating the same ultimate. How is this fair? How does this reward smart play?
• If a player is fighting 50 enemies, doing damage and taking damage, they are generating 3 ultimate every three seconds. Then there’s the player who is attacking once every couple of seconds with a light attack from the safety of the top of a keep, generating 3 ultimate every three seconds. While I understand that AoE ultimate generation could be toned down a bit, how does it make sense to give a player who is contributing significantly the same amount of ultimate as a player who is barely even doing anything?

I agree.

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

It seems like they really wanted to address the way that critical chance stacking has been crucial to generating ultimate, as well as the way doing AoE has generated ultimate. I understand these issues, but think that the way they are going about it completely wrong. Here are the ways that I would address these issues while maintaining balance:

• I am 100% on board with denying out of combat healing ultimate generation. This has always been an iffy issue, and I find it completely fair that you shouldn’t be generating points for an ultimate skill by healing your buddies in safety.
• Lower the coefficient that is used in giving ultimate for critical hits. I honestly think that critical hits shouldn’t even be considered during ultimate generation (just damage dealt, as I’ll talk about).
• Find a decent ratio to reward ultimate for the following variables: damage dealt, damage taken, blocking done, healing done, evaded attacks done, etc. Include a diminishing effect for AoE skills when calculating ultimate generation for damage dealt or healing done if it seems like AoE spam is still too strong.
• With this system, a tank would be generating a similar amount of ultimate by taken damage and blocking as a damage dealer who is dealing damage and as a healer who is healing his teammates.
• For example: damage taken = 2 ultimate/200 damage taken, blocking = 1 ultimate/block, damage dealt = 2 ultimate/500 damage dealt, healing done = 2 ultimate/200 heals done. This is obviously an example and the ratios I’m sure are off, but would incentivize smart play.

While I like that they acknowledged the disparity in ultimate generation, this new system they proposed seems oversimplified and doesn’t reward smart decisions. I feel that a more appropriate system should be developed to counter the issues they (rightfully) discussed.

I would love to hear others feedback and encourage a discussion of the proposed upcoming changes.

I suggested something similar after I finishing watching the part of the ESO Live episode I missed. Nice to compare/contrast with your own proposal as a lot of what I am seeing early on have many strong commonalities with each other. Hope to see good discussion and an acknowledgement of the concerns/options you, I, and others have articulated from ZOS. This is honestly the only thing I'm not looking forward to for Update 6.

Usual problem when you fire all your good devs and are stuck with the inexpensive/inexperienced staff working on the code/fixing ''problems''

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

[T]he fact the concept of a light attack rotation every 8sec to generate ultimate is just wrong.

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

You know what's the problem with this game? People are so fixated on speedruns and specialised roles they completely forget about the versatility a player can bring with its own skillset. You end up with tanks only Blocking (with dresses), healers only healing and Dps using perfect rotations to make up for the lack of dps by those 2 previous roles.

Whether or not it works I think that's what ZOS wanted to addresswith the CS. Other than the ult gen change, Update 6 sounds promising in this regard.