Why the Champion System will Fail to achieve its objective.

Rune_Relic · December 2014

Once you have unlocked enough Passives you gain access to unique passives deeper in the trees.

We’ve already shown a picture of the Champion System constellations, the way that works is that you spend points in each star sign to work your way through the constellation and unlock further passives. Originally we were looking at having players invest several hundred points into each constellation, but it made it feel like each point was not that meaningful. Now that number has been reduced from around 400 down to 100 points per star sign to unlock the highest tier passive bonuses. As you continue to spend points in the constellation, you unlock powerful passives at thresholds of 10, 20, 40, 60, and 100. Each constellation has a top tier passive, for example the Steed has “War Mount” at 100 points which makes it far more difficult for you to be knocked off your mount by taking damage.

Powerful passives unlocked at 10,20,40,60,100

There are nine constellations that you can spend points in, which are variants of the three major constellations; “The Warrior” (red), “The Mage” (blue), and “The Thief” (green). The Warrior presides over Health, as you spend points in any of the three constellations under the Warrior sign, those points will increase your health. Many of the passives in those constellations relate to defenses and defensive abilities. Similarly, The Thief is focused on stamina, sneaking, regeneration, and mounts. The Mage presides over Magicka, and passive abilities in Mage constellations assist with damage and offensive ability, but not just spell-based offense. It is technically possible to max out every constellation, but it would take a really really long time. Probably what you will want to do is pick what your character is good at and choose passives that work well for your character. The capstone ability in one of the Mage constellations (tentatively named “Butcher”) increases your damage against low health targets. Each of the minor constellations within the major star sign have variations to affect offense, defense, and utility.

Characters can obtain all passives.

This diminishing return encourages players to rotate around through multiple star systems in order to invest their points, this encourages players to deviate and seek creative places to invest Champion Points and prevents there from being obvious “best ways” to implement your character progression.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/12/champion-system-details/

Criticism

1. Who cares about diminishing return when super passives are unlocked at x points and all passives can be obtained eventually ?
How can players be unique if they all have the same passives in the end ?

2. 1 point every hour means in 100 points x 9 constellations = 900 hours... everyone will max out every CS passive.
How is this a horizontal progression system when all points can be obtained within a linear and finite period ?
How is this system future proof when it can be completed in a finite period ?

Suggestion.

1. Limit the points to no more then 50% or so of the total. This forces players to make choices and create unique builds rather than FOTM cookie cutters in 12 months time.

2. Make the points take longer and longer to obtain. In such a way that the last point to make 50% would take an eternity to get. This makes the CS system future proof as no one can ever get all of the available passive and it lets new players catch up with the veterans (in both passive power and passives gained). It also makes the dimishing return values a much more important factor when there is a time penalty applied. You must choose your most important passives 1st and the ones your character most desperately needs.

This is no different then the research process taken in crafting which takes longer and longer to learn.

NB. We will also get to the stage where people will get points in every pre 1.6 existing passive and active much further down the line.
New players with limited weapon/class/etc passives will then be up against someone with every existing passive maxed out with all the extra buffs.
How will you limit this game age problem to keep new players from being dominated ?
How will you prevent players being skilled in everything and switching to any FOTM cookie cutter at leisure with no respec cost ?

As a whole I like a lot of the champion system so far revealed. I just worry about what happens when everyone has obtained every passive in the game....and new people arrive.

Sharee · December 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

1. Who cares about diminishing return when super passives are unlocked at x points and all passives can be obtained eventually ?
How can players be unique if they all have the same passives in the end ?

The unlocked passives are not the only good thing you can get from the champion system. The other passives (that you manually put points into) are powerful as well.**

Rune_Relic wrote: »

2. 1 point every hour means in 100 points x 9 constellations = 900 hours... everyone will max out every CS passive.
How is this a horizontal progression system when all points can be obtained within a linear and finite period ?
How is this system future proof when it can be completed in a finite period ?

1 point every hour while you are enlightened, otherwise 4 hours/point. If we assume that the average will be 3 hours/point, that's 2700 hours to max it.

At 2 hours per day gameplay time, that's 3.69 years of constant playing to max all champion points. Of course there may be players who on average play more than 2 hours per day, but even then you are looking at a year+ to max it all.

** in fact from what i saw, the 'manual' passives are more powerful by some margin. From the tower, the automatic passives make your horse not lose stamina out of combat, on death you explode in a healing shower, your bash has a chance to apply a 20% snare, and you gain crafting XP faster.

On the other hand, the manual passives reduce ability stamina cost, roll dodge stamina cost... this is way more useful for me.

Rune_Relic · December 2014

Sharee wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

1. Who cares about diminishing return when super passives are unlocked at x points and all passives can be obtained eventually ?
How can players be unique if they all have the same passives in the end ?

The unlocked passives are not the only good thing you can get from the champion system. The other passives (that you manually put points into) are powerful as well.**

Rune_Relic wrote: »

2. 1 point every hour means in 100 points x 9 constellations = 900 hours... everyone will max out every CS passive.
How is this a horizontal progression system when all points can be obtained within a linear and finite period ?
How is this system future proof when it can be completed in a finite period ?

1 point every hour while you are enlightened, otherwise 4 hours/point. If we assume that the average will be 3 hours/point, that's 2700 hours to max it.

At 2 hours per day gameplay time, that's 3.69 years of constant playing to max all champion points. Of course there may be players who on average play more than 2 hours per day, but even then you are looking at a year+ to max it all.

** in fact from what i saw, the 'manual' passives are more powerful by some margin. From the tower, the automatic passives make your horse not lose stamina out of combat, on death you explode in a healing shower, your bash has a chance to apply a 20% snare, and you gain crafting XP faster.

On the other hand, the manual passives reduce ability stamina cost, roll dodge stamina cost... this is way more useful for me.

I wont argue with your time scales. Well ..aside from some people putting in way more than 4 hours a day TBH.

IMHO 1 year+ is not really a long time in the desired lifetime of an MMO or it becomes financially suicidal. I would expect the game to have a minimum life expectancy of 10 year judging by other MMOs. I do hope ZOS intends the game to be around for 10+ years TBH.

This then is the problem I am thinking of. This Champion system is supposed to be the final achievement of character builds. It is supposed to "differentiate" and "define" unique builds. Its is supposed to be horizontal progression to let new players catch up. It fails on both fronts.

The only way to get new players to catch up with vet players on that kind of time scale is to force a time penalty on veteran players that gets progressively steeper. Nothing else will work.

There is also no way builds can be unique if they all possess the same passives...even worse all available passives.

Samadhi · December 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

...
2. 1 point every hour means in 100 points x 9 constellations = 900 hours... everyone will max out every CS passive.
How is this a horizontal progression system when all points can be obtained within a linear and finite period ?
How is this system future proof when it can be completed in a finite period ?
...

Isn't it 100 points for each individual passive in each constellation rather than just 100 points per constellation?

Rune_Relic · December 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

...
2. 1 point every hour means in 100 points x 9 constellations = 900 hours... everyone will max out every CS passive.
How is this a horizontal progression system when all points can be obtained within a linear and finite period ?
How is this system future proof when it can be completed in a finite period ?
...

Isn't it 100 points for each individual passive in each constellation rather than just 100 points per constellation?

Could be.....thats the point Sharee was making I think. Still doesnt amount to much more than 1-2 years for many people IMHO. Still wont cover the life expectancy of the game.

bosmern_ESO · December 2014

Good to see we are Optimistic!

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2014

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Elsonso · December 2014

This is based on Tamriel Foundry, so some clarification is necessary that changes numbers above.

There are 3 major constellations, Warrior, Mage, and Thief, each with minor constellations, where you can spend champion points. Points have to be spent in all three major constellation groups on a rotation.

Each of the 9 constellations has 4 stars that are passives that champion points can be spent on, plus 4 passives that you get for "free" just by spending points in the constellation.

You can spend up to 100 points in any single star. (Edit: these seem to be things that change the character stats and skills)

The free passives are unlocked at 10, 30, 75, and 120 points spent in a constellation. (Edit: these seem to be things that buff your character in some way other than changing stats or skill numbers)

You can spend a maximum of 400 points in a single constellation.

To max out all stars in all constellations will take 3600 points.

Each point is estimated to be 1 point every 4 hours, unless Enlightened, which is 1 point every hour.

Ok, clarification is done.

Audigy · December 2014

Every talent can get 100 stars, so if we have 3 constellations and each constellation has 9 of those then we do have 27 * 100 = 2700 stars in total.

If we now assume that a casual players gains 5 stars a week, then it would take a player 540 weeks to max out. A year has about 52 weeks, you can do the math I guess

It will take many years (10) if they fix all the loopholes and exploits prior release of 1.6.

Sure a 24/7 nerd will get the stars faster, 6 a day = 42 a week but its still 64 weeks in total, which is more than a year. Those nerds however are in such a small minority that a game cant and should never be balanced around their needs.

Rune_Relic · December 2014

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Good to see we are Optimistic!

I think they are doing a good job with it for the most part. lol.
This wasnt a CS is a failure thread....just dont think it does what it sets out to do.

There is a couple of flaws that need fixing. Better to do it now than try and pick up the peices in 2-3 years time with some kind of bodge. Thats all I am saying.

@lordrichter ...thanks for the clarification.
They quoted 10, 20,40,60,100 though ?????

Rev Rielle · December 2014

I hope the 'powerful passives' that are unlocked at 20,40,60,80 and 100 under each star sign will depend upon how you allocate those points. Otherwise, yes character diversity will be significantly compromised.

Rune_Relic · December 2014

Audigy wrote: »

Every talent can get 100 stars, so if we have 3 constellations and each constellation has 9 of those then we do have 27 * 100 = 2700 stars in total.

If we now assume that a casual players gains 5 stars a week, then it would take a player 540 weeks to max out. A year has about 52 weeks, you can do the math I guess

It will take many years (10) if they fix all the loopholes and exploits prior release of 1.6.

Sure a 24/7 nerd will get the stars faster, 6 a day = 42 a week but its still 64 weeks in total, which is more than a year. Those nerds however are in such a small minority that a game cant and should never be balanced around their needs.

Clearly we need to get a handle on the figures.....below shows the tower with 8x upto 100 pnts. Perhaps this is old system numbers ?!?! I though we had 3 constellations under each of the main to give 9 with 100 in each. Something doesnt add up.

see OP...

Now that number has been reduced from around 400 down to 100 points per star sign to unlock the highest tier passive bonuses

You gain Champion Points on your entire account, so each character will have the exact same number of points. The system limit is every point, so 3600 points, once you hit that limit every character would have those 3600 points to spend.

Q&A Answer

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/12/champion-system-details/

Elsonso · December 2014

9 constellations, 4 star passives in each that come from direct point expenditures, 4 earned passives each that come from any point expenditure, for a total of 8 passives per constellation.

In the Tower, a minor constellation in the Thief constellation, the stars are Warlord, Tumbling, Magician, and Bashing Focus and a total of 120 points are distributed among three of the stars.

At 120 points, all four of the other passives are unlocked, War Mount, Inspiration Boost, Mara's Gift, and Ensnare.

Edit: I want to point out that this represents ~360 champion points earned by the player. This is 1/10th of the total possible points and represents 1440 hours of unenlightened game play.

Second edit: If I understand rotations, only one in three earned points can be spent in a single constellation. For every point visible in the screen shot, 2 other points must exist, one in Warrior and one in Mage.

Ysne58 · December 2014

Why predicting failure when you haven't even seen it in action yet? Particularly when you don't even have all your facts right. It's 3 constelations, 4 stars in each constellation that can get 100 points. That is 3600 points. Your logic is flawed.

I don't know whether your prediction will pan out or not, but at least get your facts down properly.

TequilaFire · December 2014

All I know is it is going to take a lot more brain power to set the passives up than
a lot of casual gamers are going to want to expend.
I see that redistribute points selection, I hope that is free! (wishful thinking)

Elsonso · December 2014

Ysne58 wrote: »

Why predicting failure when you haven't even seen it in action yet? Particularly when you don't even have all your facts right. It's 3 constelations, 4 stars in each constellation that can get 100 points. That is 3600 points. Your logic is flawed.

I don't know whether your prediction will pan out or not, but at least get your facts down properly.

This is an interesting thread, despite the title, since it actually discusses the system.

That said there have been some errors in this thread because it is based on the faulty information that is (still) available at Tamriel Foundry.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

1. Who cares about diminishing return when super passives are unlocked at x points and all passives can be obtained eventually ?
How can players be unique if they all have the same passives in the end ?

2. 1 point every hour means in 100 points x 9 constellations = 900 hours... everyone will max out every CS passive.
How is this a horizontal progression system when all points can be obtained within a linear and finite period ?

9 constellations x 8 passives per constellation.

There are 72 passives in the system, 36 which must be purchased using CP. I expect that each of these can be unlocked at the 1% level with a single CP expended. That means 36 CP are required to get a foot in the door of each star in each constellation.

The 36 other passives, the super passives as you call them, require 120 CP to get all of them in a constellation. This means 1080 CP to unlock them all.

So, 1080 CP gets you all 72 passives unlocked.

Now, my understanding is that the "super passives" are passive ability buffs, like resistance to toenail fungus, ability to drink Ale in one gulp, etc. The other passives that you have to purchase directly adjust stats and skills by a certain percentage, like health buffs, armor buffs, critical strike, etc. This is not really clear, so I reserve the right to change this understanding.

To "get it all" at the "entry level" and collect the necessary 1080 CP will require between 1050 and 4200 hours, depending on Enlightenment. That is a month and a half if you can manage to keep earning 1 CP every hour every day all day for a month and a half. It is obviously a finite value and this can be attained, in time.

But it is unrealistic to think anyone will go for this build. It is more realistic that someone will spend 36 CP to get each of the stars at 1% since that only requires 6 hours of enlightened play.

(I am assuming players with an existing Veteran character and the free 30 CP from that. EDIT: 30 FREE CP FOR EVERY PLAYER WITH A VETERAN IS AN INSANELY LARGE AMOUNT GIVEN THE SIZE OF THE SYSTEM. I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO CLAIM THAT IT SHOULD BE HALF AS MUCH, OR LESS.)

There is no way that someone will not create an OP list of passives and the path to get there. These will focus on certain passives, rather than all passives, and certain levels of points in the passives in order to achieve the proper results. My hope is that the system is balanced enough so that people argue over what is the best mix of passives.

It is impossible to estimate the cost of such paths at this time, but yes, it is a finite value, although large.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

How is this system future proof when it can be completed in a finite period ?

They can add passives to constellations at any time. If they add a star, it is just a single point to unlock. However, if they add a "super passive" then there will be a new, larger, minimum for the constellation that will have to be reached to get it all.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

1. Limit the points to no more then 50% or so of the total. This forces players to make choices and create unique builds rather than FOTM cookie cutters in 12 months time.

2. Make the points take longer and longer to obtain. In such a way that the last point to make 50% would take an eternity to get. This makes the CS system future proof as no one can ever get all of the available passive and it lets new players catch up with the veterans (in both passive power and passives gained). It also makes the dimishing return values a much more important factor when there is a time penalty applied. You must choose your most important passives 1st and the ones your character most desperately needs.

I am not liking the 50% of the total. I do not see where this actually accomplishes anything.

Right now, there is really no reason to invest all 3600 CP into the system. The diminishing return means that the last point spent will be almost completely worthless in terms of real stat value. No one is going to get excited about spending 1 CP to get 0.1% increase. I predict unused points long before anyone gets close to 3600 CP.

Increasing the hours to earn them is even worse. If you are at 3599 CP and you want that last one, are you going to really spend an eternity for 0.1%? No. If anything, as diminishing returns starts to impact results, the actual value of the CP becomes smaller and smaller. If the time to earn matched the value, you would be able to see the numbers tick up as you watch them.

(EDIT: The 0.1% diminishing return is a made up value for the purpose of discussion)

(EDIT 3: Accidentally used 125 points instead of 120 points for the constellation top tier passive, which threw off my calculations)

Sublime · December 2014

For those thinking that the current amount of passives in the CS caps out to early: Did you ever hear someone saying that they won't be adding new cs passives in future updates?

I'm not saying that it will be the case, but it's an easy way to expand the system, without putting new players behind, since they would still get more stats for their points at the beginning (etc.).

Elsonso · December 2014

Sublime wrote: »

For those thinking that the current amount of passives in the CS caps out to early: Did you ever hear someone saying that they won't be adding new cs passives in future updates?

I'm not saying that it will be the case, but it's an easy way to expand the system, without putting new players behind, since they would still get more stats for their points at the beginning (etc.).

Actually, the fact that the "super passives" (thread specific reference) max out at 120 CP spent but the constellation allows up to 400 CP to be spent in it makes me think that they are actually planning to expand them.

Elsonso · December 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

@lordrichter ...thanks for the clarification.
They quoted 10, 20,40,60,100 though ?????

Sorry, I missed this. Tamriel Foundry did a good job summarizing the ESO Live, but there are some errors and omissions.

In fact, the numbers that Maria used in ESO Live were as I stated: 10, 30, 75, 120.

Tamriel Foundry also omitted some information about the Enlightened benefit by not including that it takes an hour to earn a CP when Enlightened.

This is why I restated everything in my first post, so that everyone knew the facts without me having to fact check the information from Tamriel Foundry. If you read the comments, there is also a bit of confusion over there about some of the Champion System details. Repeating the details is probably helpful.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · December 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

...
2. 1 point every hour means in 100 points x 9 constellations = 900 hours... everyone will max out every CS passive.
How is this a horizontal progression system when all points can be obtained within a linear and finite period ?
How is this system future proof when it can be completed in a finite period ?
...

Isn't it 100 points for each individual passive in each constellation rather than just 100 points per constellation?

Could be.....thats the point Sharee was making I think. Still doesnt amount to much more than 1-2 years for many people IMHO. Still wont cover the life expectancy of the game.

lets just assume that they will keep adding to the game.... i cant believe this worries people. oh no people will max out in a year or two! so what it will keep evolving like all games of this sort.

Rune_Relic · December 2014

@lordrichter

Thanks so much for taking the trouble to expand on the numbers and point out the errors on Tamriel foundry.
That is the problem that was throwing me.
My understanding was this using TF....

The Tower.

4x User Selectable Passives...
Magician = 0-100 points (manual)
Tumbling = 0-100 points (manual)
Bashing Focus = 0-100 points (manual)
Warlord = 0-100 points (manual)

Total points investable = 9x 4x 100 points per constellation (3600)

4x Auto-unlock Passives...
Ensnare = Auto-unlock 1 @ 20 points ?
Inspiratio boost = Auto-unlock 1 @ 40 points ?
Maras Gift = Auto-unlock 1 @ 60 points ?
War Mount = Auto-unlock 1 @ 100 points ?

Total points to level auto-level passives = 9x 100 point (900 points)

9x consteallations
Each have 4 manual passives
Each have 4 auto-level passives

This obviously now needs correcting to this....

4x Auto-unlock Passives...
Ensnare = Auto-unlock 1 @ 10 points ?
Inspiratio boost = Auto-unlock 1 @ 30 points ?
Maras Gift = Auto-unlock 1 @ 75 points ?
War Mount = Auto-unlock 1 @ 125 points ?

Total points to level auto-level passives = 9x 125 point (1125 points)

..thanks for the heads up.

After clearing that up it still worries me.
This is a diminishing return system where investing 100% into each passive is pointless.
You only need 31 points in each passive to unlock the 10,30,75,125 point super-passives.
Given the diminishing return, how pointless would investing more than 31 of the 100 points in each passive be anyway ?
Would 1125 points not only be enough for all super-passives but also the most potent effect of the other passives too ?
Even given 4 hours per point with someone playing 4 hours per day (like I do) thats only 1125 days or 3 years (without inspiration).
Any one after this point will be running around with all worthwhile passives.
How does making an army of clones make us unique ?
What is there to work towards after this ?

What happens after this ?
Yes maybe they add new staff.
But the point of the CS system is to deal with that problem now.
If it doesnt...it failed.

Then a new player comes along.
(I realise a lot of poeple here really dont give a crap about future players...but they bring money to the game and keep it afloat).
Not only is it going to take A while to get to level 50.
He now needs to spend 3 years or so before he becomes competitive with the Vets.
3 years of arse kicking for new players.
That would put me off a little to be frank.
Thats why WOW offers "instant level 90" because they too never fixed this problem.

Well I have pointed out my concerns in this post.
I leave it upto ZOS to act on it or ignore it.
It wont effect me unless they cant keep new customers for some reason

Thanks for the input everyone...especially the bad info on TF.

AshySamurai · December 2014

@Rune_Relic‌ nice post! I agree with you about new players. It's no benefit to me, but I want all new players feel them comfortable and not forsaken in this VR world. I don't know how fair it would be, but if we'll get 30 champion points at the beginning, then maybe if any other player hit VR level (50 lvl in future) will automaticly get 30 CP for free? It will allow all new players get one passive in 3 constellation. Let's say, if this CP account wide, so every account can get this gift only once. Well, what you all think about it?

Rune_Relic · December 2014

AshySamurai wrote: »

@Rune_Relic‌ nice post! I agree with you about new players. It's no benefit to me, but I want all new players feel them comfortable and not forsaken in this VR world. I don't know how fair it would be, but if we'll get 30 champion points at the beginning, then maybe if any other player hit VR level (50 lvl in future) will automaticly get 30 CP for free? It will allow all new players get one passive in 3 constellation. Let's say, if this CP account wide, so every account can get this gift only once. Well, what you all think about it?

Anything helps. That's the only thing that really worries me ..maintaining the playerbase. If you cant keep/entice new customers we all have a problem.

So... we have to stop a massive skill/power gap opening up between new and veteran players in one way or another. But to balance that we also still need to allow for some kind of progression even for players that have been here 10 years or more.

I thought the point of the champion system was to address that. I just cant see how it does. The diminishing return is a start, but it still leaves a massive gulf between those that have filled the CS system and those that have not.

It definitely does nothing to stop clone builds (everyone can get all passives) and encourage uniqueness which is my other concern.

Sharee · December 2014

He now needs to spend 3 years or so before he becomes competitive with the Vets.
3 years of arse kicking for new players.

The new players should be able to diminish their disadvantage fairly soon, since it becomes exponentially harder to increase a champion passive the higher it already is. The first few points put into a champion passive have a much bigger effect then the last ones.

Govalon · December 2014

Sharee wrote: »

He now needs to spend 3 years or so before he becomes competitive with the Vets.
3 years of arse kicking for new players.

The new players should be able to diminish their disadvantage fairly soon, since it becomes exponentially harder to increase a champion passive the higher it already is. The first few points put into a champion passive have a much bigger effect then the last ones.

This and do you really need to have all passives for a single build to be viable? If you are mage and not using much stamina or stealth or whatever, do you still need all the stamina passives and stealth passives? I think not. Do you absolutely need the war horse passive to be viable and have fun?

Rune_Relic · December 2014

Govalon wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

He now needs to spend 3 years or so before he becomes competitive with the Vets.
3 years of arse kicking for new players.

The new players should be able to diminish their disadvantage fairly soon, since it becomes exponentially harder to increase a champion passive the higher it already is. The first few points put into a champion passive have a much bigger effect then the last ones.

This and do you really need to have all passives for a single build to be viable? If you are mage and not using much stamina or stealth or whatever, do you still need all the stamina passives and stealth passives? I think not. Do you absolutely need the war horse passive to be viable and have fun?

To be fair if you have a specific build in mind then no you don't need all passives...unless they are useful. I haven't seen all the passives ...but they have already said different constellations all have useful passives for any build.

Unfortunately there is a reason people go 100% health too.
So they can respec into any build they like by changing gear instead.

Same thing with this champion system
If you gain all passives... you don't need the respec.

Elsonso · December 2014

The numbers they rattled off for the diminishing returns sounded like "for example" numbers rather than absolute numbers from the design of the game.

They said that the first point gets the full 1% benefit, the second one gets 0.9%, and it gets worse from there. Getting to a +10% would take 20-30 champion points. By example, they said that we would get down into the 0.1% per champion point range but it is not clear what the bottom is. They also did not state what the total bonus would be for investing all 100 pts into a star.

Given the diminishing return, how pointless would investing more than 31 of the 100 points in each passive be anyway ?

It sounds like investing 31 pts into a passive will net you around a 10% bonus in the stat controlled by the passive.

They did say, by example, that investing more points could get into the 15% range, but it will be 0.1% at a step.

Aside: Has anyone counted to see if there are actually 36 stats that can be increased by the 36 passives?

I do agree that once you get all of the passives unlocked the system radically changes and the reward potential drops dramatically.

Given the free 30 points at the onset of the system, only 1095 points are needed to reach this point. They intend that Enlightenment will be easy to get, so I expect that most players will be enlightened most of the time, so assuming close to 1 hour per champion point is not outside of the realm of possibility. I am going to estimate 1 CP every 90 minutes across the entire endeavor for about 1640 hours of work, or about 410 days at 4 hours per day, every day.

After that point, there really is no reason that I can see to participate in the system. You will be scratching out 0.1% advances as the only return.

I really hope that they are not intending that people actually PLAY the Champion System. I hope that Champion Points are simply something that happens in the background while the player is doing something else and that the player really isn't thinking about Champion System at all.

If the players end up playing Champion System, it is going to be a grind fest the likes of which people have not seen before. "I spent all day in Cyrodiil and managed to increase my stamina regeneration from 15% to 15.1%!!!"

Guppet · December 2014

lordrichter wrote: »

The numbers they rattled off for the diminishing returns sounded like "for example" numbers rather than absolute numbers from the design of the game.

They said that the first point gets the full 1% benefit, the second one gets 0.9%, and it gets worse from there. Getting to a +10% would take 20-30 champion points. By example, they said that we would get down into the 0.1% per champion point range but it is not clear what the bottom is. They also did not state what the total bonus would be for investing all 100 pts into a star.

Given the diminishing return, how pointless would investing more than 31 of the 100 points in each passive be anyway ?

It sounds like investing 31 pts into a passive will net you around a 10% bonus in the stat controlled by the passive.

They did say, by example, that investing more points could get into the 15% range, but it will be 0.1% at a step.

Aside: Has anyone counted to see if there are actually 36 stats that can be increased by the 36 passives?

I do agree that once you get all of the passives unlocked the system radically changes and the reward potential drops dramatically.

Given the free 30 points at the onset of the system, only 1095 points are needed to reach this point. They intend that Enlightenment will be easy to get, so I expect that most players will be enlightened most of the time, so assuming close to 1 hour per champion point is not outside of the realm of possibility. I am going to estimate 1 CP every 90 minutes across the entire endeavor for about 1640 hours of work, or about 410 days at 4 hours per day, every day.

After that point, there really is no reason that I can see to participate in the system. You will be scratching out 0.1% advances as the only return.

I really hope that they are not intending that people actually PLAY the Champion System. I hope that Champion Points are simply something that happens in the background while the player is doing something else and that the player really isn't thinking about Champion System at all.

If the players end up playing Champion System, it is going to be a grind fest the likes of which people have not seen before. "I spent all day in Cyrodiil and managed to increase my stamina regeneration from 15% to 15.1%!!!"

To most reasonable players, it will just be something that happens as they do the content they enjoy. There will be those that dedicate themselves to gaming the system and will get heavily addicted to increasing CP though. If you were there for wow's PVP ranks, it will probably be like that, some sad individuals playing even more excesivly than they did, thinking they are becoming important.

Rune_Relic · December 2014

Thats an interesting point.
Is it only min/maxers interested in gaming the Champion system ?
Why would they take it more seriously than just a side dish.

The CS was intended to replace the Vet system.
So I guess to answer that you have to ask how seriously people valued the Vet system.
Judging by the 1000s of posts releted to the vet system and its replacement I guess people consider that one of the most important aspects of the game.

Getting a handle on why is something you really have to think about though. To me anyway lol. Is it not simlpy because Greater Vet level = Greater power and more I win. Is that not why people tried to level as soon as possible to be "competitive" rather than "underpowered" because higher rank players were "overpowered" ?

So TBH I s regretfully have to admit that the game is chock a block by min/maxers and they will all game the CS system to its max. I wish things werent that way @guppet @lordrichter I really do.

LunaRae · December 2014

Even if this system lasted one year for your average no-life gamer I'd expect MUCH more content to be available over the span of one year. A system that gives them this much time, finite or not, allows them to focus on new content or further expanding existing content which will continue to provide us with something to do. Not sure why you'd want a single system to provide you an infinite amount of gameplay, that's what I expect the MMO developer to do and one of the reason's why I pay a monthly sub.

This system will EASILY entertain me for the next 3-5 months on it's own, excluding all of the other interesting systems coming out in the near future.

Rune_Relic · December 2014

@LunaRae‌

Yes I expect new content every 6 weeks as advertised. But for me that was map content or new areas to explore.

I dont consider upgraded character progression to be part of that package. I dont expect character progression to keep chop and change all the time. I expected character progression to be pretty much finalised but unreachable in a way that noone could be everything, but anyone could be anything.

Thats why we had 1-50 progression and Vet rank progression. Two clearly defined character progression systems. The 1-50 system is finite....no arguments there. The 50+ system was supposed to to be infinite as the game never stops growing and characters have to grow with it.

They just had to total every single possible source for all calcs and build the CS system around that. Are you suggesting in 3 years time we add another system and completely rebalance the whole game again ...because a whole load of new passives/actives need to be added into that total ?

I really dont think ZOS will every consider another 1.6 like update. So IMHO this system is the 50+ system and needs to work now and in the future. Even the current 1-50 system is now flawed as I can get every passive and active in every skill line ate one point. Build diversity then becomes obsolete as I can just swap gear or weapons at the drop of a hat and never respec.

Perhaps thats a good thing, perhaps not. /shrugs