Alliance War Citizen (Version 2) and World PvP

Enodoc · December 2014

This was something I suggested before, which was shot down primarily for being: exploitable by spies; a penalty for playing as intended; and biased towards PvE players. I'm hoping this version of the suggestion is less of all of those things. There's also some suggestions here for a related PvP Bounty system, and World PvP.

First of all: the PvP Citizen Rank already exists. This suggestion turns it into something meaningful by changing its functionality. The primary aspect of which is giving the Citizen player a yellow glow, so that enemy faction players know they are not hostile.

Citizens

Cannot initiate PvP with other players
Can be attacked by other players, and are then able to fight back
- No AP is awarded to the attacker(s)
Are not able to earn Alliance Points
Have a yellow outline glow instead of a red one, to indicate their status
Are not allowed into military installations - straying into these areas changes their glow to red (but they still can't attack first)
- AP is awarded as normal if they are killed in one of these areas
Can be attacked by members of all alliances, even their own
- However they cannot be attacked in the Border Gate areas
Cannot use the Transitus Network
- But have their own limited fast-travel; see below
Have their own /zone chat, separate from the three Alliance zone chats
- This is shared between Citizens of all alliances
Have special dispensation in the Bounty System (see below)

Procedure

On entry to Cyrodiil, you are currently greeted by a faction member who says "Welcome to the war". A new dialogue option appears saying I'm not here to fight.
This annoys the recruiter, who dismisses you as an "adventurer type", warns you that you are still not safe from the other alliances, tells you that your own alliance may try to kill you for defecting, and to appeal to the Grand Warlord if you reconsider. The quest "An Adventurer in Cyrodiil" begins.
A new NPC appears (eg, the Moth Priest who is mentioned in "A Plea for the Elder Scrolls") and commends you on your decision. He asks you to meet him at a building out in the safe zone (eg, one of the farmhouses or mills that already exists in the area between the Border Gate and the Scroll Temple).
The priest reinforces the warning that you are not safe from anyone, even your own faction members, informs you that you are now a Citizen of Cyrodiil, and introduces the Chapel Shrines fast-travel system. Quest end.

If you wish to join the Alliance War at a later date, visit the Grand Warlord. You will have to pay 500 Gold for them to consider your application, after which, "Welcome to Cyrodiil" starts.
If you have participated in the war already and want to become a Citizen, you will have to talk to the Grand Warlord and Resign.
- All accumulated Alliance Points will be removed
- Leaderboard position will be revoked
- Alliance War skill lines will be reset (but skill points not refunded, to compensate for the skill points gained by ranking up that can't realistically be removed)
- Rank titles will be disabled
If you decide to rejoin the war later, you will have to pay the joining fee of 500 Gold. You will be starting from the beginning of Volunteer Grade 1 again, and will have to earn back titles and skills.
- This is to deter people from flipping in and out of Citizen repeatedly

Temple Shrines Fast Travel

Introduced by the Moth Priest during the introductory quest, this allows Citizens to fast travel around Cyrodiil, like the Transitus Network.
There are only three access nodes: Weynon Priory, Abbey of the Eight, and Temple of the Ancestor Moths.
There are three additional exit nodes: inside the three mills within the safe zones (one for Citizens of each alliance). This is to allow Citizens to get back to the Cyrodiil Gates more easily.
Citizens who are killed by other players can choose one of these chapels to resurrect at, or can resurrect at the safe-zone mill.

Bounty System
Since the Justice System is apparently not going to exist within Cyrodiil, this is an alternative PvP system.

All players have the option, 3 times daily, to put out a bounty on another player from an opposing alliance. Max 5000 Gold.
Citizens are allowed to put out a bounty on people who kill them, but cannot put out bounties on anyone else.
- If a Citizen is killed and their death is witnessed by a friendly NPC, such as a quest-giver or guard from the Citizen's own alliance, they have the option to put out a bounty of 1000 Gold on the killer at no cost to them.
- A bounty cannot be put on a killer from the Citizen's own alliance.
The bounty can be collected by any member of that player's alliance.
Bounties can be taken from the Bounty Mission Board. If someone else completes it first, it is automatically cancelled.

PvE Resurrection in Cyrodiil
Just wanted to add this suggestion, as I thought of it while running a delve yesterday.

It would be good if, in the event of you dying a PvE death in a Cyrodiil delve, you could respawn at the delve entrance, like you do in the PvE zones, so you don't have to get all the way back there from the Gate Wayshrines. A PvP death would not change.

World PvP
To compensate for such changes in Cyrodiil, it is necessary to give the PvP players something to do in the PvE zones. If Cross-Faction PvE is ever implemented, there can be a new toggle in the Settings called World PvP.

When the Justice System is fully out, there will be two different types of PvP: Alliance PvP and Justice PvP, most logically controlled by two separate global PvP flags. Alliance PvP currently is "on" in Cyrodiil only.
The toggle setting "Enable World PvP" flips the global Alliance PvP flag in the Cross-Faction zones (which would be default off).
PvP players (edit for clarity: of opposing alliances) can then kill each other whenever they like, but cannot attack the PvE players (who have the toggle turned off).
A cooldown would probably be required so that you can only flip the switch so often.

Questions? Thoughts? How many things did I not consider this time?

dharbert · December 2014

Hell no. This game has PvE players who want no part of PvP, whether you like it or not. This game will never have open-world PvP....Sorry. It would be a 24/7 non-stop grief fest. Not gonna happen. You can go back to Cyrodiil now.

Enodoc · December 2014

dharbert wrote: »

Hell no. This game has PvE players who want no part of PvP, whether you like it or not. This game will never have open-world PvP....Sorry. It would be a 24/7 non-stop grief fest. Not gonna happen. You can go back to Cyrodiil now.

This actually made me laugh so much... when I suggested this last time, I got, from a PvP player:

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote:

The point is, the majority of the game is strictly pve, we have one area currently that is pvp. GTFO of our zone.

and the reason I added it at all was so that they had less to complain about. Now I suggest something which benefits PvE players who want to go to Cyrodiil, does not negatively affect PvP players in Cyrodiil, benefits PvP players in the wider world, and does not negatively affect PvE players in the wider world, and get told to go back to where I was told to get out of the first time.

@dharbert: please explain how something that is entirely optional "would be a 24/7 non-stop grief fest", when I said PvP players [...] cannot attack the PvE players. And please also give your views on the main purpose of this post; a way to alleviate griefing of PvE players who want to quest in Cyrodiil.

Edit: For the record, intra-faction PvP does still not exist in my Open World suggestion; DC players cannot kill other DC players.

TehMagnus · December 2014

Don't see the point of being a Citizen in Cyrodill.
That being said, i hope we do get the ability to PVP flag ourselves in PVE areas and that we have the ability to DUEL people ^^. And I hope we get cross faction areas.

Enodoc · December 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Don't see the point of being a Citizen in Cyrodill.
That being said, i hope we do get the ability to PVP flag ourselves in PVE areas and that we have the ability to DUEL people ^^. And I hope we get cross faction areas.

The point is so that enemy players who want to have a good PvP challenge would be informed that their target has no interest in PvP, and therefore may leave them alone. Particularly if said target is just trying to get somewhere to turn in a quest, but has to cross half the map to do it, and then has to cross half the map again if they get killed by a PvP player who thought they were a threat [when they weren't].

Duels. Yes, I knew I'd forgotten something.

dharbert · December 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Don't see the point of being a Citizen in Cyrodill.
That being said, i hope we do get the ability to PVP flag ourselves in PVE areas and that we have the ability to DUEL people ^^. And I hope we get cross faction areas.

Friendly duels, or just duels in general, would be great. But again, not going to happen. Because if we had duels, then we could test builds in a controlled environment, and Zenimax can't have us knowing what's working correctly and what isn't.

Black_Wolf88 · December 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Hell no. This game has PvE players who want no part of PvP, whether you like it or not. This game will never have open-world PvP....Sorry. It would be a 24/7 non-stop grief fest. Not gonna happen. You can go back to Cyrodiil now.

This actually made me laugh so much... when I suggested this last time, I got, from a PvP player:

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote:

The point is, the majority of the game is strictly pve, we have one area currently that is pvp. GTFO of our zone.

and the reason I added it at all was so that they had less to complain about. Now I suggest something which benefits PvE players who want to go to Cyrodiil, does not negatively affect PvP players in Cyrodiil, benefits PvP players in the wider world, and does not negatively affect PvE players in the wider world, and get told to go back to where I was told to get out of the first time.

if these pve players join a populated pvp campaign there will be a huge negative impact for the pvp players. that is the fact that now you have less pvp players within your limited number of players on that campaign contributing. so the faction with least amount of pve players will benefit the most.

the fact is, today there is only a couple of campaigns where there is actually close to being full most of the time. why cant the pve players shut up and go to the empty campaigns where the chance of actually finding pvp players is next to 0. if that doesnt work they can just group up so no solo pvp player can take kill them or at least make it possible to escape and revive and continue on questing.

Sharee · December 2014

You obviously put a lot of thought into it, which is commendable, but i still do not agree.

1, Lots of work for the devs, for a minimal effect. PVE players can already PVE in cyrodiil. That they are PVE-ing is usually pretty obvious by the area they are in.

2, The quests in cyrodiil are designed to be more rewarding because of the added danger the player exposes himself to. You are basically asking for lowering the danger while keeping the XP.

Sharee · December 2014

Double post

Enodoc · December 2014

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

if these pve players join a populated pvp campaign there will be a huge negative impact for the pvp players. that is the fact that now you have less pvp players within your limited number of players on that campaign contributing. so the faction with least amount of pve players will benefit the most.

That's true, and if Imperial City does not have a rank requirement, the same thing will occur there as well.

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

the fact is, today there is only a couple of campaigns where there is actually close to being full most of the time. why cant the pve players shut up and go to the empty campaigns where the chance of actually finding pvp players is next to 0. if that doesnt work they can just group up so no solo pvp player can take kill them or at least make it possible to escape and revive and continue on questing.

Also true, and what I imagine many do already. The basis of this suggestion was to make the existing Citizen Rank 0 meaningful, in addition to the defense against PvP players. At the moment, being Rank 0 means nothing.

Sharee wrote: »

You obviously put a lot of thought into it, which is commendable, but i still do not agree.

1, Lots of work for the devs, for a minimal effect. PVE players can already PVE in cyrodiil. That they are PVE-ing is usually pretty obvious by the area they are in.

2, The quests in cyrodiil are designed to be more rewarding because of the added danger the player exposes himself to. You are basically asking for lowering the danger while keeping the XP.

The danger is not reduced so much as it is altered. Citizens would still be susceptible to being killed, and could even be killed by their own alliance members.

TehMagnus · December 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Don't see the point of being a Citizen in Cyrodill.
That being said, i hope we do get the ability to PVP flag ourselves in PVE areas and that we have the ability to DUEL people ^^. And I hope we get cross faction areas.

The point is so that enemy players who want to have a good PvP challenge would be informed that their target has no interest in PvP, and therefore may leave them alone. Particularly if said target is just trying to get somewhere to turn in a quest, but has to cross half the map to do it, and then has to cross half the map again if they get killed by a PvP player who thought they were a threat [when they weren't].

Duels. Yes, I knew I'd forgotten something.

Honestly, If I was in Cyro, and saw a guy in yellow "Citizen", he'd be my first target

then again, I also enjoy killing deers with invasion when I'm riding in Cyrodill so would kinda be the same for me

.

IMO, it won't really change anything compared to how those PVE'rs do it atm (which makes the implementation of such thing unlikely seeing how it would take a lot of dev ressources for not much change seeing how a lot of people are meanies like me and enjoy making unsuspecting Citizens suffer).

Implement some kind of downside to killing those Citizens and that might make it work.

dharbert · December 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Don't see the point of being a Citizen in Cyrodill.
That being said, i hope we do get the ability to PVP flag ourselves in PVE areas and that we have the ability to DUEL people ^^. And I hope we get cross faction areas.

The point is so that enemy players who want to have a good PvP challenge would be informed that their target has no interest in PvP, and therefore may leave them alone. Particularly if said target is just trying to get somewhere to turn in a quest, but has to cross half the map to do it, and then has to cross half the map again if they get killed by a PvP player who thought they were a threat [when they weren't].

Duels. Yes, I knew I'd forgotten something.

Honestly, If I was in Cyro, and saw a guy in yellow "Citizen", he'd be my first target.

Like I said, 24/7 griefing. Even if you aren't a threat or don't want to engage in PvP, players will kill you anyway, just because.

Enodoc · December 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Don't see the point of being a Citizen in Cyrodill.
That being said, i hope we do get the ability to PVP flag ourselves in PVE areas and that we have the ability to DUEL people ^^. And I hope we get cross faction areas.

The point is so that enemy players who want to have a good PvP challenge would be informed that their target has no interest in PvP, and therefore may leave them alone. Particularly if said target is just trying to get somewhere to turn in a quest, but has to cross half the map to do it, and then has to cross half the map again if they get killed by a PvP player who thought they were a threat [when they weren't].

Duels. Yes, I knew I'd forgotten something.

Honestly, If I was in Cyro, and saw a guy in yellow "Citizen", he'd be my first target.

And that's what makes this interesting. It becomes a moral choice rather than a gut reaction; "Do I attack the guy who definitely poses no threat?" vs "Enemy player! Must kill now!" It also opens up an interesting quandary for anyone considering becoming a Citizen; they are called out as PvE players with this system, and must decide whether they would rather play with the knowledge that their own alliance can kill them, but may think that they will be let off for being not-hostile; as opposed to being any other player who is safe from their own alliance but less safe from enemies.

dharbert wrote: »

Like I said, 24/7 griefing. Even if you aren't a threat or don't want to engage in PvP, players will kill you anyway, just because.

Oh I understand what you mean now. That comment is directed at the Cyrodiil case, not the World case.

TehMagnus · December 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Don't see the point of being a Citizen in Cyrodill.
That being said, i hope we do get the ability to PVP flag ourselves in PVE areas and that we have the ability to DUEL people ^^. And I hope we get cross faction areas.

The point is so that enemy players who want to have a good PvP challenge would be informed that their target has no interest in PvP, and therefore may leave them alone. Particularly if said target is just trying to get somewhere to turn in a quest, but has to cross half the map to do it, and then has to cross half the map again if they get killed by a PvP player who thought they were a threat [when they weren't].

Duels. Yes, I knew I'd forgotten something.

Honestly, If I was in Cyro, and saw a guy in yellow "Citizen", he'd be my first target.

And that's what makes this interesting. It becomes a moral choice rather than a gut reaction; "Do I attack the guy who definitely poses no threat?" vs "Enemy player! Must kill now!" It also opens up an interesting quandary for anyone considering becoming a Citizen; they are called out as PvE players with this system, and must decide whether they would rather play with the knowledge that their own alliance can kill them, but may think that they will be let off for being not-hostile; as opposed to being any other player who is safe from their own alliance but less safe from enemies.

Yah but in this implementation, being a Citizen has only one difference: even more people can kill you

. I call that a downside ^^

Enodoc · December 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Don't see the point of being a Citizen in Cyrodill.
That being said, i hope we do get the ability to PVP flag ourselves in PVE areas and that we have the ability to DUEL people ^^. And I hope we get cross faction areas.

The point is so that enemy players who want to have a good PvP challenge would be informed that their target has no interest in PvP, and therefore may leave them alone. Particularly if said target is just trying to get somewhere to turn in a quest, but has to cross half the map to do it, and then has to cross half the map again if they get killed by a PvP player who thought they were a threat [when they weren't].

Duels. Yes, I knew I'd forgotten something.

Honestly, If I was in Cyro, and saw a guy in yellow "Citizen", he'd be my first target.

And that's what makes this interesting. It becomes a moral choice rather than a gut reaction; "Do I attack the guy who definitely poses no threat?" vs "Enemy player! Must kill now!" It also opens up an interesting quandary for anyone considering becoming a Citizen; they are called out as PvE players with this system, and must decide whether they would rather play with the knowledge that their own alliance can kill them, but may think that they will be let off for being not-hostile; as opposed to being any other player who is safe from their own alliance but less safe from enemies.

Yah but in this implementation, being a Citizen has only one difference: even more people can kill you . I call that a downside ^^

Are that many people dedicated griefers though? Killing a Citizen gives you absolutely no benefits. I was hoping that people may be more inclined to pass over such people and let them be about their business, if they know they aren't going to come up behind them and stab them in the back.

For example, I attack people because they may attack me. If they posed no threat, I'd basically ignore them.

TehMagnus · December 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Don't see the point of being a Citizen in Cyrodill.
That being said, i hope we do get the ability to PVP flag ourselves in PVE areas and that we have the ability to DUEL people ^^. And I hope we get cross faction areas.

The point is so that enemy players who want to have a good PvP challenge would be informed that their target has no interest in PvP, and therefore may leave them alone. Particularly if said target is just trying to get somewhere to turn in a quest, but has to cross half the map to do it, and then has to cross half the map again if they get killed by a PvP player who thought they were a threat [when they weren't].

Duels. Yes, I knew I'd forgotten something.

Honestly, If I was in Cyro, and saw a guy in yellow "Citizen", he'd be my first target.

And that's what makes this interesting. It becomes a moral choice rather than a gut reaction; "Do I attack the guy who definitely poses no threat?" vs "Enemy player! Must kill now!" It also opens up an interesting quandary for anyone considering becoming a Citizen; they are called out as PvE players with this system, and must decide whether they would rather play with the knowledge that their own alliance can kill them, but may think that they will be let off for being not-hostile; as opposed to being any other player who is safe from their own alliance but less safe from enemies.

Yah but in this implementation, being a Citizen has only one difference: even more people can kill you . I call that a downside ^^

Are that many people dedicated griefers though? Killing a Citizen gives you absolutely no benefits. I was hoping that people may be more inclined to pass over such people and let them be about their business, if they know they aren't going to come up behind them and stab them in the back.

It allows to test DPS

and those Citizens will likely be the people who asked for a PVE Cyrodil so you can bet a lot of people will kill them just for the pleasure of doing so.

Never underestimate the power of grieffers, especially when there is no downside to it. Same faction open World PVP in other games only works well only when there is a big penalty to becoming a murderer : PK flag, anyone can kill you without penalty, you loose stuff if you get killed while being a PK and that's what makes thoses systems so fun. You can't grief indefinitly, and if you do, you get to experience the thrill of the hunt ^^ where you're the pray

AlnilamE · December 2014

I enjoy PvE in Cyrodiil and I really don't think this is a good idea.

Enodoc · December 2014

AlnilamE wrote: »

I enjoy PvE in Cyrodiil and I really don't think this is a good idea.

Fair enough... got a reason for that?

magnusnet wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Don't see the point of being a Citizen in Cyrodill.
That being said, i hope we do get the ability to PVP flag ourselves in PVE areas and that we have the ability to DUEL people ^^. And I hope we get cross faction areas.

The point is so that enemy players who want to have a good PvP challenge would be informed that their target has no interest in PvP, and therefore may leave them alone. Particularly if said target is just trying to get somewhere to turn in a quest, but has to cross half the map to do it, and then has to cross half the map again if they get killed by a PvP player who thought they were a threat [when they weren't].

Duels. Yes, I knew I'd forgotten something.

Honestly, If I was in Cyro, and saw a guy in yellow "Citizen", he'd be my first target.

And that's what makes this interesting. It becomes a moral choice rather than a gut reaction; "Do I attack the guy who definitely poses no threat?" vs "Enemy player! Must kill now!" It also opens up an interesting quandary for anyone considering becoming a Citizen; they are called out as PvE players with this system, and must decide whether they would rather play with the knowledge that their own alliance can kill them, but may think that they will be let off for being not-hostile; as opposed to being any other player who is safe from their own alliance but less safe from enemies.

Yah but in this implementation, being a Citizen has only one difference: even more people can kill you . I call that a downside ^^

Are that many people dedicated griefers though? Killing a Citizen gives you absolutely no benefits. I was hoping that people may be more inclined to pass over such people and let them be about their business, if they know they aren't going to come up behind them and stab them in the back.

It allows to test DPS and those Citizens will likely be the people who asked for a PVE Cyrodil so you can bet a lot of people will kill them just for the pleasure of doing so.

Never underestimate the power of grieffers, especially when there is no downside to it. Same faction open World PVP in other games only works well only when there is a big penalty to becoming a murderer : PK flag, anyone can kill you without penalty, you loose stuff if you get killed while being a PK and that's what makes thoses systems so fun. You can't grief indefinitly, and if you do, you get to experience the thrill of the hunt ^^ where you're the pray

Heh, that's the exact opposite problem to when I suggested it back in July. There were quite a lot of penalties in that version that people didn't like the sound of.

Let's nix the "you can kill Citizens in your own faction" part of this one though.

bosmern_ESO · December 2014

Why would you go into PvP to not PvP?

When I was questing in Cyrodiil I did it in the most popular server just to have a chance to spice things up, it was amazing being in the middle of a quest then have some random guy come out of no where and attack me.

Another massive problem about this would be that you are taking up space in the campaign and not doing anything to help your faction, you would be holding spots of people who want to actually go in and fight.

PvE is already the main focus of the game, and this would not be the update that PvP needs.

AlnilamE · December 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

I enjoy PvE in Cyrodiil and I really don't think this is a good idea.

Fair enough... got a reason for that?

Beyond the general feeling that it would not improve PvE, I think, as other people pointed out, it's asking for griefers. They kill the poor deer, after all.

It's also very convoluted to set yourself into "Citizen" and back, so really only a few people would ever use that. Those who are not interested in PvP and are also afraid to enter Cyrodiil because they think it's crawling with enemy players (It's not.).

I don't think the number of players in that category warrants the resources to implement those features.

Especially if this were done before some of the issues that are affecting PvP are fixed and the PvP folks get more content.

I've done all the quests/skyshards/dungeons/fish on my main and all the dungeons/skyshards on one of my alts and I think the risk of encountering other players is part of what makes it interesting. I know some people don't feel that way, but they are able to go into Cyrodiil and do PvE unharmed if they take some basic precautions.

Chesimac · December 2014

Even if I am in the middle of a duel I will stop and kill a wandering citizen... that yellow glow man. Every alliance has a buff campaign (at least on the na server) if you want cyrodiil pve

Darkrogue671 · December 2014

This begs the question... why are there quests in the PvP server????

I can understand siege quests, but come on!

Sharee · December 2014

Darkrogue671 wrote: »

This begs the question... why are there quests in the PvP server????

I can understand siege quests, but come on!

It is to give players who never considered PvP-ing a reason to enter cyrodiil and experience what it is about, possibly making them realize that they actually like it.