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Discussion: Nightblade Skills

Glory
Glory
Class Representative
Inspired by the various discussions of skill viability, I wanted to create an up-to-date discussion that addresses the state of Nightblades. Cyndairin has laid out all of our skill descriptions next to the other classes (found here), but I thought it would be good to hear opinions on how to improve skills and what skills are already good. Hopefully it can create a place for people to talk about their praises of the current Nightblade meta as well as talk about improvement suggestions for certain skills and point out mechanics that may not be working as intended.

This original post is going to be my (personal) opinions and thoughts on all three Nightblade skill trees as well as possibly a few complementary skills. I'm not going to talk much about scaling (stamina vs. magicka) or strength of effects, rather I wanted to talk about the intended effects!

I am hoping to provide videos displaying some of these skill effects to back up my arguments in the future. Feedback and opinions are strongly welcomed in a constructive fashion!

Without further ado, my opinions and grading for viability (split grades reflect the different morphs):

Assassination
  • Soul Harvest/Incapacitating Strike (Ultimate): Not a bad ultimate, the insanely low cost of this skill can make PvE and small PvP fights usable multiple times in a fight. Arguably there are more powerful ultimates that could be used, but this one seems good. I wish there was information in the tooltip describing how long the healing debuff lasted (tests incoming...).
  • Killer's Blade/Impale: An execute skill, Assassin's Blade and its morphs are great for Nightblades. I personally opt for Impale's ranged execute over Killer's Blade's 15% heal, but both are very nice to have slotted.
  • Lotus Fan/Ambush: The Nightblade's class gap-closer, with the added ability to close distance even while immobilized (unlike critical charge and shield charge). Ambush's damage increase can lead to some nasty burst damage, while I wish that Lotus Fan's AoE was stronger and/or had a larger radius.
  • Mirage/Double Take: I don't think anyone should be using this ability in its current state. I think that this could be modified to make for an extremely effective evasion build, but it doesn't. 15% miss chance (not dodge chance, meaning it doesn't stack and can't evade magic) is less effective than other similar class skills, although this is understandable because it lasts so long and is cast on character. I also wish that Double Take lasted longer than 3.5 seconds. If this skill was tweaked to be passive dodge chance and stacked with other dodge chances like intended (see this thread for testing/discussion on dodge chance stacking), it would be much more viable.
  • Piercing Mark/Reaper's Mark: The ultimate glass cannon skill! Both have interesting uses, I don't think these need changing as they are working as intended.
  • Focused Attacks/Incapacitating Attacks: Increased attack rate has become very popular as basically a medium-length passive buff. I personally think increased stamina regeneration trumps immobilize and heavy attack buffs, but can definitely see both having extreme utility.
  • Passives: Assassination passives seem strong, and Hemorrhage in particular encourages having at least one skill from this tree slotted.

Shadow
  • Bolstering Darkness/Veil of Blades (Ultimate): Veil of Blades is easily one of the best ultimates in game. Bolstering Darkness' synergy seems pretty strong, but Veil is a much stronger morph. The only thing to mention is that the synergy doesn't seem to have as much utility as intended.
  • Shadowy Disguise/Dark Cloak: A skill with a lot of controversy, Shadow Cloak and its morphs should be a staple of many Nightblade builds. Instead, it has been plagued with a variety of issues (shorter than intended cloaks, skills pulling you out of invisibility, DoT combo's not being removed, failed activation, etc.). Shadowy Disguise could have uses, and I strongly wish that Dark Cloak would act as a purge for all negative effects instead of just some DoTs. Fixing all the bugs and some fixes would make this skill so much less frustrating than its current states.
  • Surprise Attack/Concealed Blade: Great skills! Surprise Attack does some nasty damage, while Concealed Blade adds great utility. Not much to say, very useful to have slotted.
  • Twisting Path/Refreshing Path: This skill seems cool, but leaves a lot to be desired. Refreshing Path is a good ultimate generator I guess, and increased mobility is always nice. The lack of strength and the fact that they are ground AoEs leave these skills with something to be desired. Multiple recommendations have been made to improve these, including making the skill travel with the player, making the player invisible on the path, increasing the intensity, etc. This could be a really neat skill, but it definitely needs a rework.
  • Mass Hysteria/Manifestation of Terror: Mass Hysteria is a very useful fear, adding CC that can't be blocked to a Nightblade's arsenal (if only players couldn't block during the fear...). It is a bit buggy, as sometimes the skill will drain magicka but fail to activate. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what sets off this issue, insight would be helpful to replicate it! Manifestation of Terror is another ground effect that needs some reworking, as Mass Hysteria is infinitely more useful unless you plan on setting a trap and waiting. I personally think that making Manifestation a medium sized ground effect that activates fear every couple of seconds (say 4) over a period of time would be amazing and comparable to Templar's Blinding Flashes.
  • Dark Shades/Shadow Image: Both skills have great utility, providing damage mitigation and shadow image providing mobility. They probably could use a damage buff. Honestly I'm conflicted about which to choose as they both are so useful in different scenarios.
  • Passives: Shadow's passives are solid, with Refreshing Shadow's permanent buff amazing. I do wish that Shadow Barrier had a bit more utility or lasted slightly longer.

Siphoning
  • Soul Siphon/Soul Tether (Ultimate): Soul Tether is amazing, enough said. A buffed Soul Tether can absolutely destroy other players and is a personal favorite for AoE grinding due to its 4 second stun. Soul Tether eclipses Soul Siphon here, although Soul Siphon still has good utility.
  • Funnel Health/Swallow Soul: A ranged magicka Nightblade's best friend, these skills both have great viability. Tanks may prefer Swallow Soul for increased healing, while Funnel Health builds ultimate like crazy.
  • Prolonged Suffering/Malefic Wreath: The never-used skill in the Siphoning tree. The cast-time is frustrating and any damage breaking the effect make me wonder what this skill is even intended for (I guess you could CC one NPC while single-targeting another? Why not just AoE??). Malefic Wreath's AoE doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me. Overall, this skill seems like a significantly worse Petrify and definitely needs to be modified. Even minor tweaks (no cast time, can't be CC broken) could make this skill worth using, but I personally hope for a major rework.
  • Debilitate/Crippling Grasp: Crippling Grasp eclipses Debilitate, but this skill does good damage and has good utility. It makes me sad that this was one of the few skills a DK couldn't reflect and this was change... Overall the DoT is noticeable and appreciated.
  • Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks: I wish this skill hadn't been nerfed as the damage reduction is pretty steep, but overall the sustain that this provides is heavenly. Siphoning Attacks provide better sustain, but Leeching Strikes can be useful for tanking builds. Thanks to Siphoning Attacks I usually AoE farm and end up with full resources.
  • Power Extraction/Sap Essence: Sap Essence is AoE Nightblade God-Mode. People will suggest following Sap with Steel Tornado or Impulse, but unless you're optimizing Sap Essence can just be spammed while you drop 3+ ultimates. Power Extraction isn't as strong as Sap Essence in my opinion (no healing is sad), but still can prove useful.

Complementary Skills/My Rant on Passive Dodge
  • Shuffle/Elude: I really wish that passive dodge chance stacked as intended. This link goes on about testing dodge chance and people have noticed that only the highest chance will be calculated. I would love to see Double Take/Mirage count as passive dodge chance so that evasion tanking would be viable. The possibilities are... almost endless:
    1. Elude (23%) + Hist Bark (20% while blocking) + Mirage (15% and miss chance procs) = 58% dodge chance consistently
    2. Elude (23%) + Hist Bark (20% while blocking) + Double Take (30% for 3.5 seconds) = 73% dodge chance for 3.5 seconds
    3. Elude (23%) + Spectre's Eye (20% for 3 seconds after casting a spell, 6 second CD) + Mirage (15% and miss chance procs) = 58% dodge chance for 3 out of 6 seconds
    4. Elude (23%) + Spectre's Eye (20% for 3 seconds after casting a spell, 6 second CD) + Double Take (30% for 3.5 seconds) = confusing combination of dodge chances at various

I would love to hear other people's thoughts on the class! Constructive discussions can hopefully result in positive feedback for great skills and adjustments made towards the less effective/used skills to make them more viable!
Edited by Glory on November 28, 2014 7:37PM
mDK will rise again.
Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.

@Glorious since I have too many characters to list

Ádamant

Strongly against Faction Lock
  • Cody
    Cody
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    I am going to talk about a few abilties, then the passives, then the class as a whole.

    Shadow cloak.
    This ability breaks CONSTANTLY after use. If you use a DoT, it breaks. if you go near keep guards, it breaks. if you use it near other players, half the time it breaks. It breaks far too much and needs to be fixed ASAP. The morphs are pretty good in my opinion, but i got the ability for the invisibility, which works only half the time.

    Blur.
    This is the most useless ability in the game in my opinion. It can't be stacked with other dodge passives, and its dodge chance is half that of DK and templar dodge skills. I think it just needs to be scraped and replaced with something else. I am not going to talk about the morphs, as the skill itself is just not worth it.

    Aspect of Fear.
    A very effective CC ability. also a controversal ability. the "blockig while feared" issue is a hot topic in PvP. I myself believe players should NOT be able to block while feared, as you can just CC break it and end its effects anyway, However, people think differently, and im gonna let y'all talk about that yourselves.

    there are more abilties i want to discuss, but i'lllet others talk about them

    The passives of the class are pretty good. the only one i think needs improving is "Restor X magicka over 6 seconds after killing someone with an assassination ability" i think the value of X" needs to be higher.

    As a whole? the class lacks survivalbility. We have no instant self heals like the other 3 classes have. We have HoTs, but they cant sustain you in a battle unless your opponent is blocking the whole time or focused on someone else. We have no damage shields of our own, which makes it even harder to sustain ourselves in battle. half of our abilties are either bugged or useless(ill let other NBs talk more about the abilties) our "get out of jail free" ability, shadow cloak, only works half the time with half its effectivness, and most of our abilties force us to play the gank/ninja build, as that is clearly what the class was designed around. playing a gank/ninja build is not the problem, the problem is that unless you go the block and cast sap essence/crushing shock route: you wont be able to do anything else with the class besides gank.

    so thats my take on it. feel free to agree, disagree troll, and flame to your hearts content



    Edited by Cody on November 30, 2014 6:20AM
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    Great write up. I agree with most all of what you had to say, so will just add my thoughts on a few skills.

    Mirage/Double Take/Blur - Pretty useless indeed. I talked about it in my write up on NB tanks here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/138932/a-different-nightblade-discussion-nb-tank#latest I believe they should split the morph into two versions. One for a character wanting to play the more mobile, dextrous character where they buff the 15% chance to 30%. The fact that is casts on the NB doesn't outweigh the comparison to say: Cinder Storm where they get 30% in a pretty large area to move about in, plus do damage, plus snare the enemy. The other morph should be more for protection on characters that either want to tank or casters that want a protective buff handy: keep the 15% and add 500 spell resist and armor protection. (The thing is already a bubble around you). The fact that NBs are the ONLY CLASS without a way to shield or buff protection is pretty glaring.

    Shadowy Disguise/Dark Cloak - needs to be fixed.

    Veil of Blades - great, but synergy is terrible. Nothing worse than tanking and accidentally synergizing some NBs veil when I intend to synergize something else (b/c they switch around constantly when more than one effect is down) which makes me drop aggro as i go invis.

    Twisting/Refreshing path - another skill that isn't useful enough to put on the bar over something else. ZoS was high on the whole only having 5 slots on our skill bar to work with, so they should realize how valuable the real estate is going to be on that bar and 'path' doesn't come close to being valuable enough for a spot. If we had spots to waste, maybe we'd run it and throw it down, but we don't.

    Dark Shades - skill is pretty good, but question if someone knows: does the damage mitigation of 15% for 4 seconds only happen for 4 seconds after casting, or 4 seconds after every strike from one of the shadow dudes? I think if that's the case, then it's good as is and shouldn't hit harder, that de-buff is good enough.

    Funnel health/Swallow Soul - I like the way the two morphs play out, but this was another skill on my tanking NB list that I would like to see buffed. Maybe some think that sounds crazy, but NBs are the only class without a great self-heal in certain situations. (All of them require doing damage or killing something - if you are fighting one big thing, as is often the case in MMOs, then all you get from this is a small HoT that really won't help much in the end. Sap won't take it's place either in this situation). My idea was the keep the "feel" of NB and still require them to do damage for healing, but simply give double the return for the heal on the first tick. This would allow someone to cast it several times in a row to build up a decent heal and then let the HoT work. This would put a NB heal closer to equal footing to dragon's blood or breath of life or even dark exchange. Aside from being surrounded on all sides by weak mobs I can sap for health that won't hurt me too much, my NBs have the worst class healing of all the other classes (I've played through all four types).

    Prolonged Suffering - arguably the worst class skill in the game. Just turn this skill into the NB version of Encase and be done with it already.

    Cripple - should not be reflective. It's effect is very similar to certain boss spells that cannot be reflected: for example the CoHs end boss - you can reflect his first skull shots, the tiny ones, but not the larger, cloud covered ones (not talking about the giant one he shoots). Cripple seems to have that same "AoE" single target look to it.

    Siphon - should not have been nerfed, but it's still useful.

    Sap - Good as is. Definitely calling it 'god mode' is an over statement. If you are surrounded by weak mobs that don't hit really hard then it will keep you standing, but doesn't do a ton of damage and needs to be used in combination with building ulties. I think some are getting the wrong impression about it though when they hear 'sap builds' and don't realize more goes into the build than just casting the one spell over and over and magically winning. Also, doesn't do much use at all if you are fighting one or two people.


    I always wondered about the class that was announced far after the other three and suspected it was put together as an after thought. It almost seems like they had a good concept for the class, but forgot about the balance with the other classes and making sure all four would have the same tools to work with, even if those tools all looks and worked a little differently.

    This was not done. NBs have some great dps skills. They have a couple interesting skills for their class (shadow cloak when it works). But the complete lack of shields or buffs to protection seen to indicate a different team put them together than the other three. They also have no good self heal that they can just activate and get health (all three other classes have them, two have extremely extremely powerful ones).
    NA • PC • AD • Characters (Breton MagDD, Khajiit StamDD, Argonian Tanks):
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  • Cody
    Cody
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    xaraan wrote: »
    Great write up. I agree with most all of what you had to say, so will just add my thoughts on a few skills.

    Mirage/Double Take/Blur - Pretty useless indeed. I talked about it in my write up on NB tanks here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/138932/a-different-nightblade-discussion-nb-tank#latest I believe they should split the morph into two versions. One for a character wanting to play the more mobile, dextrous character where they buff the 15% chance to 30%. The fact that is casts on the NB doesn't outweigh the comparison to say: Cinder Storm where they get 30% in a pretty large area to move about in, plus do damage, plus snare the enemy. The other morph should be more for protection on characters that either want to tank or casters that want a protective buff handy: keep the 15% and add 500 spell resist and armor protection. (The thing is already a bubble around you). The fact that NBs are the ONLY CLASS without a way to shield or buff protection is pretty glaring.

    Shadowy Disguise/Dark Cloak - needs to be fixed.

    Veil of Blades - great, but synergy is terrible. Nothing worse than tanking and accidentally synergizing some NBs veil when I intend to synergize something else (b/c they switch around constantly when more than one effect is down) which makes me drop aggro as i go invis.

    Twisting/Refreshing path - another skill that isn't useful enough to put on the bar over something else. ZoS was high on the whole only having 5 slots on our skill bar to work with, so they should realize how valuable the real estate is going to be on that bar and 'path' doesn't come close to being valuable enough for a spot. If we had spots to waste, maybe we'd run it and throw it down, but we don't.

    Dark Shades - skill is pretty good, but question if someone knows: does the damage mitigation of 15% for 4 seconds only happen for 4 seconds after casting, or 4 seconds after every strike from one of the shadow dudes? I think if that's the case, then it's good as is and shouldn't hit harder, that de-buff is good enough.

    Funnel health/Swallow Soul - I like the way the two morphs play out, but this was another skill on my tanking NB list that I would like to see buffed. Maybe some think that sounds crazy, but NBs are the only class without a great self-heal in certain situations. (All of them require doing damage or killing something - if you are fighting one big thing, as is often the case in MMOs, then all you get from this is a small HoT that really won't help much in the end. Sap won't take it's place either in this situation). My idea was the keep the "feel" of NB and still require them to do damage for healing, but simply give double the return for the heal on the first tick. This would allow someone to cast it several times in a row to build up a decent heal and then let the HoT work. This would put a NB heal closer to equal footing to dragon's blood or breath of life or even dark exchange. Aside from being surrounded on all sides by weak mobs I can sap for health that won't hurt me too much, my NBs have the worst class healing of all the other classes (I've played through all four types).

    Prolonged Suffering - arguably the worst class skill in the game. Just turn this skill into the NB version of Encase and be done with it already.

    Cripple - should not be reflective. It's effect is very similar to certain boss spells that cannot be reflected: for example the CoHs end boss - you can reflect his first skull shots, the tiny ones, but not the larger, cloud covered ones (not talking about the giant one he shoots). Cripple seems to have that same "AoE" single target look to it.

    Siphon - should not have been nerfed, but it's still useful.

    Sap - Good as is. Definitely calling it 'god mode' is an over statement. If you are surrounded by weak mobs that don't hit really hard then it will keep you standing, but doesn't do a ton of damage and needs to be used in combination with building ulties. I think some are getting the wrong impression about it though when they hear 'sap builds' and don't realize more goes into the build than just casting the one spell over and over and magically winning. Also, doesn't do much use at all if you are fighting one or two people.


    I always wondered about the class that was announced far after the other three and suspected it was put together as an after thought. It almost seems like they had a good concept for the class, but forgot about the balance with the other classes and making sure all four would have the same tools to work with, even if those tools all looks and worked a little differently.

    This was not done. NBs have some great dps skills. They have a couple interesting skills for their class (shadow cloak when it works). But the complete lack of shields or buffs to protection seen to indicate a different team put them together than the other three. They also have no good self heal that they can just activate and get health (all three other classes have them, two have extremely extremely powerful ones).

    I'v been trying for quite some time to make a NB character that does not have to rely on block and spam of sap essence or ganking, to be effective. In other words, iv been trying to make a NB that can straight up fight people.

    The lack of decent and quick self heals is the sole thing holding me back; at least for my DW character(with 2H I will be able to use momentum/rally, which should provide at least some decent heals) The best i can do is use leeching strikes and hit my enemies as much as possible for heal backs, but thats it(also a potion when its ready) the rest of the NB HoTs require you to do some good damage against your enemies for them to be effective; and thats hard to do when almost everyone block and casts the whole time, negating almost all of my damage.

    The class needs some kind of good sized quick self heal. Maybe a huge amount the first tick, something like that?






  • MercerFrey
    MercerFrey
    Soul Shriven
    I'm sorry, but you can't possibly believe that the Shades are worthwhile. The damage debuff on enemies is almost unnoticeable, and the shades themselves do next to no damage. The pathetic damage would make sense if they drew aggro, since they're, y'know, supposed to be decoys. But for some reason they're invulnerable and untargetable by enemies, meaning they can't even fulfill the basic functions of a shadow clone, which is to be a decoy.

    If they're not supposed to be used as decoys, then why in the world does the skill even exist?
  • Jacques Berge
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    MercerFrey wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but you can't possibly believe that the Shades are worthwhile. The damage debuff on enemies is almost unnoticeable, and the shades themselves do next to no damage. The pathetic damage would make sense if they drew aggro, since they're, y'know, supposed to be decoys. But for some reason they're invulnerable and untargetable by enemies, meaning they can't even fulfill the basic functions of a shadow clone, which is to be a decoy.

    If they're not supposed to be used as decoys, then why in the world does the skill even exist?

    Hey sir, you leave my shades alone, I love those little rapscallions. They've had their PVE utility nerfed. They used to hold aggro, you come up to a 3 enemy world boss and pop shades on them. The bosses would aggro onto the shades and you could pull them away, one at a time. The devs didn't like this apparently. So now, if a mobs aggros onto a shade it automatically resets, it's kinding infuriating.

    That said, the skill is very good in pvp, it's funny and very useful. The skill has tons of utility, just not so much in PVE.
    "Shadow hide you"

    Jacques Berge - v14 NB - DC
  • Cyndairin
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    I was just noticing ,while fighting a troll how most of my attacks against this stronger target has no effect , Absolutely none of the status effecting abilities has any effect again this target . I get the message this creature is to powerful for this effect .
    Hey sir, you leave my shades alone, I love those little rapscallions. They've had their PVE utility nerfed. They used to hold aggro, you come up to a 3 enemy world boss and pop shades on them. The bosses would aggro onto the shades and you could pull them away, one at a time. The devs didn't like this apparently. So now, if a mobs aggros onto a shade it automatically resets, it's kinding infuriating.
    The shades I have noticed can sometimes pull a target from a mob , not all the time though . I wish they could hold aggro or take it off the nightblade .

    I don't have an addon to see the specifics of each skill and record what skill is effecting or doing damage as stated by a skill against a stonger target like a troll or a boss .

    Any suggestions for an good combat log addon would be appreciated . That being said some addons I've tried over stress my below spec lap-top ~_~ .

    I would expect that if a skill has damage and a status effect , using the skill against a stronger target , that the status effect may be negated but the dps should still effect the target unless the dps is itself a status effect like bleed , against an undead , or an elemental damage effect that the target doesn't take damage from , ( or that absorbs the elemental attack and gives the target an advantage like extra health , magika , etc ),Not sure if I've seen that effect in game .... maybe something the dev's could add to a mob boss , if not already added .

    I'm just looking at the skills of the Nightblade not the weapons or other magic skills from the mages guild or attacks from the fighters guild or undaunted or vamp ,were-wolf , or potions .

    Damage , Against a troll , (stronger target or boss like target).
    *message* ("this target is too powerful for that effect" )

    Assassination:
    Assassins Blade , did do damage .
    Teleport Strike , did do damage , stun was ineffective .*message*
    Blur, the troll did miss a couple of melee attacks .
    Marked Target wasn't resisted and showed on the health bar that the effect was successful .

    Shadow:
    Veiled strike : did damage , stun and set off balance *message*
    Path of darkness : did damage ,
    Aspect of terror : , has no effect *message* .
    Summon Shade : , did a bit of damage , ( although I would have liked to have sent the shade in to tank the troll , thus taking the troll off me . ) But the troll came straight at me like a freight train !

    Siphoning:
    Swallow soul : ,does damage
    Agony : ,received *massage* Thus the damage over time never happened .
    Debilitate : , I did see a bit o damage on the trolls moral bar but I also received multiple *messages* . I can only guess that the effect was that it didn't siphon the movment speed from the troll within the damage over time , and can only guess that the effect of " Enemy weapon attacks are % slower " never happened .
    Drain Power : , did damage .

    The Nightblade relies on their skills of status effects to do dps or to crowd control , debuff the target while buffing the Nightblade . When going up against a target that's immune it really limits the Nightblades abilities and damage .

    Again I'm just taking the skills of the nightblade not any other available ability , such as from weapons , or guilds or any other abitlities other then the Nightblades skills .

    The Nightblade still needs some love IMO .

    Edited by Cyndairin on December 16, 2014 4:53PM
  • morvegil
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    Shades are good in PVP. They are the only way I can bring a DK's stamina down cuz hes blocking
    Lo'ke
    Nord Vampire
    Nightblade
    Shield+BOW

    Daggerfall Covenant
    Bandit King
    Bridge Bandits Guild
  • Jacques Berge
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    Shades is a good skill... I would say it's even one of the better utility skills in the game. Especially in pvp. I don't know why so many people think every skill needs to be earth shattering.
    "Shadow hide you"

    Jacques Berge - v14 NB - DC
  • Lynx7386
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    I don't know why so many people think every skill needs to be earth shattering.

    Because, out of all the skills in the game, you're only ever allowed to have access to 5 of them at any one point in time. Every skill out there is competing for those 5 limited hotbar slots.

    Hotbar real estate is very limited and very pricey - you've gotta be outstanding to get one of those spots. If an ability is meager at best, or only has very situational usefulness, it's going to lose out to an ability that's even marginally better in more situations.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Jacques Berge
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    I don't know why so many people think every skill needs to be earth shattering.

    Because, out of all the skills in the game, you're only ever allowed to have access to 5 of them at any one point in time. Every skill out there is competing for those 5 limited hotbar slots.

    Hotbar real estate is very limited and very pricey - you've gotta be outstanding to get one of those spots. If an ability is meager at best, or only has very situational usefulness, it's going to lose out to an ability that's even marginally better in more situations.

    I like how competative skill slots are. There certainly are skills that are garage and need complete reworks or slight buffs. For the NB blur, haste, and agony are all abysmally weak skills that need reworks. I'll don't think shades really needs any love. Is the skill great for dps? No. But the debuff is good, it lasts 23 seconds, and is pretty much fire and forget. Not every skill is going to be good for every build. I love shades for solo pvp.
    "Shadow hide you"

    Jacques Berge - v14 NB - DC
  • Cyndairin
    Cyndairin
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    I have to say I never PVP , IMO though , If all the skills work and are not negated or the target can't resist , (target being another player ) the Nightblade would be deadly in a PVP environment . If the opponent player could negate , resist , etc the Nightblades status effect abilities do to their skills and understanding of game mechanics then good on them for being able to play their character against a Nightblade . However in the PVE environment some targets like trolls , world bosses , etc that have a built in mechanic to resist 100% of all status effects of the Nightblade , this is frustrating to me . And probably would be quite the chore for Zeni to implement a monster Mechanic , to have the monster use a timed ability to resist or negate or heal a status effect nightblade skill instead of outright having the monster 100% resistant to all abilities . At the same time it would probably be just as difficult to alter the Nighblades status effect abilities against such PVE foes , without also effecting the PVP part of the game . I would like to use ALL Nightblade skills as needed against the enemy and not have only a selected set , because of the monsters ability to have 100% resists against all status effect . ( of course i could see a much costly and often respec for what and when a particular set of skills would be needed ).

    Thinking on the mechanics of the Nightblades skills for a PVP-PVE environment , It might be easier for Zeni to just modify the PVE monster mechanics to have set % against certain status effects 10% resists for some status effect 100% for others and even maybe a Regen or bonus given against certain elemental effects and poisons / diseases damage types , and add a % chance that a nightblades status effect skill can effect that same enemy , instead of an all or nothing ,which I am seeing in PVE atm . Doing it this way may not effect the PVP environment drastically to cause an unbalance super assassin .

    ROFL at the challenge the Nightblades Build must give ZENI :p .
  • Palidon
    Palidon
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    I agree on Prolonged Suffering. It is totally useless. Come on ZOS give us NB's a break and give us a Immobilizer on the same level as the other classes have. DK's: Dark Talons Immobilize for 4 sec. Sorcers: Encase Immobilize for 4.5 sec. Nightblades: Crappy Prolonged Suffering Immobilize for 12 seconds but can be broken from any other source. Reduce it to 4 seconds and take away the penality.
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    Palidon wrote: »
    I agree on Prolonged Suffering. It is totally useless. Come on ZOS give us NB's a break and give us a Immobilizer on the same level as the other classes have. DK's: Dark Talons Immobilize for 4 sec. Sorcers: Encase Immobilize for 4.5 sec. Nightblades: Crappy Prolonged Suffering Immobilize for 12 seconds but can be broken from any other source. Reduce it to 4 seconds and take away the penality.

    You're comparing the wrong abilities here. Prolonged suffering (an agony morph) is akin to runic prison (sorceror) or petrify (dragonknight), both of which disable a target for 12 seconds but also break on damage. They're single-target long duration CC abilities designed to take an enemy out of the fight so you can deal with others.

    The closest ability that nightblades have to talons and encase would be our fear from the shadow line, which still definitely needs improving on. Templars dont have anything akin to talons or encase either, though.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Glory
    Glory
    Class Representative
    MercerFrey wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but you can't possibly believe that the Shades are worthwhile. The damage debuff on enemies is almost unnoticeable, and the shades themselves do next to no damage. The pathetic damage would make sense if they drew aggro, since they're, y'know, supposed to be decoys. But for some reason they're invulnerable and untargetable by enemies, meaning they can't even fulfill the basic functions of a shadow clone, which is to be a decoy.

    If they're not supposed to be used as decoys, then why in the world does the skill even exist?

    As others have already said, the damage isn't the reason you should run this. The utility is extremely good, especially in PvE.

    That being said, saying that a 15% damage debuff on enemies is almost unnoticeable is questionable. This damage debuff also stacks with crippling slash from S&B for a whopping 30% damage decrease. You think that receivign 30% less damage is negligible for a tank?
    mDK will rise again.
    Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.

    @Glorious since I have too many characters to list

    Ádamant

    Strongly against Faction Lock
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    the damage debuff is useful, sure. In a few cases, even the teleport with the archer shade is useful (at least, in pvp). Ultimately, however, the issue with shade is that, in a game with only 5 skill slots available to you, it doesnt compete well enough with most other abilities available to the nightblade to be worth using as an alternative.

    The same can be said for many other abilities, however: Agony and Blur are just as bad off for nightblades. Spiked armor and Petrify are terrible for dragonknights. Daedric Curse, Daedric Mines, and Rune Prison are bad for sorcerors. I think templars are the only class right now that doesnt have a single ability which is so drastically worse than others that it's not worthwhile, all of theirs at least have some utility.

    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • deepseamk20b14_ESO
    deepseamk20b14_ESO
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    I don't know why so many people think every skill needs to be earth shattering.

    Because, out of all the skills in the game, you're only ever allowed to have access to 5 of them at any one point in time. Every skill out there is competing for those 5 limited hotbar slots.

    Hotbar real estate is very limited and very pricey - you've gotta be outstanding to get one of those spots. If an ability is meager at best, or only has very situational usefulness, it's going to lose out to an ability that's even marginally better in more situations.

    I like how competative skill slots are. There certainly are skills that are garage and need complete reworks or slight buffs. For the NB blur, haste, and agony are all abysmally weak skills that need reworks. I'll don't think shades really needs any love. Is the skill great for dps? No. But the debuff is good, it lasts 23 seconds, and is pretty much fire and forget. Not every skill is going to be good for every build. I love shades for solo pvp.

    Speaking of shades. I have been using shadow image for awhile now. I really like the ability to teleport to it. I generally use it as an escape. During battles where both sides are basically at a stalemate and neither faction is pushing the other I'll pick a target in the enemy group, cast shadow image, go in a fight for a little and teleport back out to safety. This is great considering NB's lack of survivability against multiple targets compared to a DK or temp. Though I was wondering, with the other morph since you have two shades, does it take a blocking enemies stamina down twice as fast or is it not noticeably more?
    Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!
  • Jacques Berge
    Jacques Berge
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    I don't know why so many people think every skill needs to be earth shattering.

    Because, out of all the skills in the game, you're only ever allowed to have access to 5 of them at any one point in time. Every skill out there is competing for those 5 limited hotbar slots.

    Hotbar real estate is very limited and very pricey - you've gotta be outstanding to get one of those spots. If an ability is meager at best, or only has very situational usefulness, it's going to lose out to an ability that's even marginally better in more situations.

    I like how competative skill slots are. There certainly are skills that are garage and need complete reworks or slight buffs. For the NB blur, haste, and agony are all abysmally weak skills that need reworks. I'll don't think shades really needs any love. Is the skill great for dps? No. But the debuff is good, it lasts 23 seconds, and is pretty much fire and forget. Not every skill is going to be good for every build. I love shades for solo pvp.

    Speaking of shades. I have been using shadow image for awhile now. I really like the ability to teleport to it. I generally use it as an escape. During battles where both sides are basically at a stalemate and neither faction is pushing the other I'll pick a target in the enemy group, cast shadow image, go in a fight for a little and teleport back out to safety. This is great considering NB's lack of survivability against multiple targets compared to a DK or temp. Though I was wondering, with the other morph since you have two shades, does it take a blocking enemies stamina down twice as fast or is it not noticeably more?

    Yes... blocking a shades 30 pt damage attack costs the same amount of stam as any other attack. So yeah, it it will drain s blockers stam
    "Shadow hide you"

    Jacques Berge - v14 NB - DC
  • Glory
    Glory
    Class Representative
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    the damage debuff is useful, sure. In a few cases, even the teleport with the archer shade is useful (at least, in pvp). Ultimately, however, the issue with shade is that, in a game with only 5 skill slots available to you, it doesnt compete well enough with most other abilities available to the nightblade to be worth using as an alternative.

    The same can be said for many other abilities, however: Agony and Blur are just as bad off for nightblades. Spiked armor and Petrify are terrible for dragonknights. Daedric Curse, Daedric Mines, and Rune Prison are bad for sorcerors. I think templars are the only class right now that doesnt have a single ability which is so drastically worse than others that it's not worthwhile, all of theirs at least have some utility.
    Shades are definitely worth a slot in a nightblade tanks rotation, and I personally use them to make healing easier when I do it. I would definitely agree that it's not for DPS nightblades.

    I also disagree with you that Daedric Curse and Daedric Mines are bad for sorcerors. These two skills are extremely good for small scale PvP.

    Skills don't need to be viable for every build, and shouldn't be looked at from a purely PvE DPS perspective.

    I will give you Agony and Blur, those skills are horrible ;)
    mDK will rise again.
    Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.

    @Glorious since I have too many characters to list

    Ádamant

    Strongly against Faction Lock
  • Cody
    Cody
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Palidon wrote: »
    I agree on Prolonged Suffering. It is totally useless. Come on ZOS give us NB's a break and give us a Immobilizer on the same level as the other classes have. DK's: Dark Talons Immobilize for 4 sec. Sorcers: Encase Immobilize for 4.5 sec. Nightblades: Crappy Prolonged Suffering Immobilize for 12 seconds but can be broken from any other source. Reduce it to 4 seconds and take away the penality.

    You're comparing the wrong abilities here. Prolonged suffering (an agony morph) is akin to runic prison (sorceror) or petrify (dragonknight), both of which disable a target for 12 seconds but also break on damage. They're single-target long duration CC abilities designed to take an enemy out of the fight so you can deal with others.

    The closest ability that nightblades have to talons and encase would be our fear from the shadow line, which still definitely needs improving on. Templars dont have anything akin to talons or encase either, though.

    if its supposed to take enemies out of the fight, then why does it break on damage....
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    Cody wrote: »
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Palidon wrote: »
    I agree on Prolonged Suffering. It is totally useless. Come on ZOS give us NB's a break and give us a Immobilizer on the same level as the other classes have. DK's: Dark Talons Immobilize for 4 sec. Sorcers: Encase Immobilize for 4.5 sec. Nightblades: Crappy Prolonged Suffering Immobilize for 12 seconds but can be broken from any other source. Reduce it to 4 seconds and take away the penality.

    You're comparing the wrong abilities here. Prolonged suffering (an agony morph) is akin to runic prison (sorceror) or petrify (dragonknight), both of which disable a target for 12 seconds but also break on damage. They're single-target long duration CC abilities designed to take an enemy out of the fight so you can deal with others.

    The closest ability that nightblades have to talons and encase would be our fear from the shadow line, which still definitely needs improving on. Templars dont have anything akin to talons or encase either, though.

    if its supposed to take enemies out of the fight, then why does it break on damage....

    To encourage situational awareness?

    Compare it to abilities in other games like polymorph in WoW or Whirlwind/Force Lift in SW:TOR. These abilities disable a single target for a relatively long duration, but in order for them to be effective you have to get other enemies away from the controlled target. It's to discourage the use of AoE abilities in combination with long duration stuns/disabling abilities.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO
    With the cast time these 'roots' are only good for an opener and given the other abilities in this game will continue to be sub-par to even single target DPS.
    For mobs AOEs are far superior not just in DPS but even in resource use and as most bosses are immune to CCs, Agony and the like are worthless there.

    Add to this the breaks on damage from any source and as has been pointed out here but also in other threads, it is by far the worst skill in the game.

    Funny enough, more NPCs seem to use it, but those roots certainly do NOT break on damage from any other source, quite the contrary.
  • Cody
    Cody
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Cody wrote: »
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Palidon wrote: »
    I agree on Prolonged Suffering. It is totally useless. Come on ZOS give us NB's a break and give us a Immobilizer on the same level as the other classes have. DK's: Dark Talons Immobilize for 4 sec. Sorcers: Encase Immobilize for 4.5 sec. Nightblades: Crappy Prolonged Suffering Immobilize for 12 seconds but can be broken from any other source. Reduce it to 4 seconds and take away the penality.

    You're comparing the wrong abilities here. Prolonged suffering (an agony morph) is akin to runic prison (sorceror) or petrify (dragonknight), both of which disable a target for 12 seconds but also break on damage. They're single-target long duration CC abilities designed to take an enemy out of the fight so you can deal with others.

    The closest ability that nightblades have to talons and encase would be our fear from the shadow line, which still definitely needs improving on. Templars dont have anything akin to talons or encase either, though.

    if its supposed to take enemies out of the fight, then why does it break on damage....

    To encourage situational awareness?

    Compare it to abilities in other games like polymorph in WoW or Whirlwind/Force Lift in SW:TOR. These abilities disable a single target for a relatively long duration, but in order for them to be effective you have to get other enemies away from the controlled target. It's to discourage the use of AoE abilities in combination with long duration stuns/disabling abilities.

    Well it fails in this particular game
  • Wolfsspinne
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    Funny thing...
    Before it got nerfed Agony was the fricking best skill in the game.

    At release (or was it in beta?) Agony did the DoT while the target was stunned. You where able to stun-lock-kill any enemy with just that skill. With enough magicka-reg you where even able to stun-lock-kill two enemies at the same time still with just one skill.

    They had to hot-fix it, and the had to do it fast. Guess they just don't know how to make a good skill out of Agony, without making it over-powered again.


    In my opinion Agony should have the Dot again at the same time as the target is stunned. But instead of being recastable over and over again, it should work like Vampire's Drain so a single target can only be effected once.
  • Cody
    Cody
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    Funny thing...
    Before it got nerfed Agony was the fricking best skill in the game.

    At release (or was it in beta?) Agony did the DoT while the target was stunned. You where able to stun-lock-kill any enemy with just that skill. With enough magicka-reg you where even able to stun-lock-kill two enemies at the same time still with just one skill.

    They had to hot-fix it, and the had to do it fast. Guess they just don't know how to make a good skill out of Agony, without making it over-powered again.


    In my opinion Agony should have the Dot again at the same time as the target is stunned. But instead of being recastable over and over again, it should work like Vampire's Drain so a single target can only be effected once.

    I seem to recall using it back in the days of hopesfire, in PvP too, and I don't use abilities in PvP unless they are worth using, so Agony can't have always been a waste of an ability.
  • Draehl
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    (repost from Agony thread)

    Might I suggest this be completely reworked away from a CC and become a health sacrifice skill? It would have interesting synergy with the NB healing skills and act as a sort of counter-point to Strife.

    Agony: 3s channel (dark energy beam). Damages the target for a large amount, you are also damaged for 30% of this amount.

    Morph1:
    Instant cast, but you are damaged for 40%

    Morph2: You gain immovable + minor reduced damage taken while channeling.
    Main: Breton Nightblade "Shadow Cleric" (Sustained Damage/offhealer) 5L/2H - Resto + S&B
    Alt: Argonian Dragonknight (Stam DoTs/Tank) 5H/2M - S&B + Bow
    Alt: Nord Templar Berserker (Rawr) 5M/2H - Dual Wield + Two Hander
    Alt: Altmer Sorceror (Pewpew) 7L - Destro + Resto
  • duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO
    What NB is lacking is some sort of 'fast' self-heal during combat and/or damage shield as a class ability, as already pointed out by the OP.

    Therefore, your idea revolving around not returning health, but damage to one own health for this...
    Sorry this one thought Agony couldn't get worse, and now stands corrected.

    However, in case of a full change of Agony the ability should not be a copy of something already present for other classes!

    Hence this ones proposal to reflect stuns and roots and providing a heal each time those are used against a NB, with the morphs either providing magicka or stamina in addition to health.
  • Caza99
    Caza99
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    MercerFrey wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but you can't possibly believe that the Shades are worthwhile. The damage debuff on enemies is almost unnoticeable, and the shades themselves do next to no damage. The pathetic damage would make sense if they drew aggro, since they're, y'know, supposed to be decoys. But for some reason they're invulnerable and untargetable by enemies, meaning they can't even fulfill the basic functions of a shadow clone, which is to be a decoy.

    If they're not supposed to be used as decoys, then why in the world does the skill even exist?

    These shades are one of the most useful stamina drains a NB has. Use this + Mass Hysteria against perma-blockers and blockcasters and you can rain down the dmg while they have no more stamina to block with :)

    PC NA - @Merœr , MagSorc Main
  • Draehl
    Draehl
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    In PvP. It would be nice to have a sustained damage option for PvE. Logically that would be the shades but they just don't live up to it. Maybe have a conditional effect that they deal less damage in PvP? Or would buffing the damage by 50-100% be unbalanced in PvP on top the stam drain?
    Main: Breton Nightblade "Shadow Cleric" (Sustained Damage/offhealer) 5L/2H - Resto + S&B
    Alt: Argonian Dragonknight (Stam DoTs/Tank) 5H/2M - S&B + Bow
    Alt: Nord Templar Berserker (Rawr) 5M/2H - Dual Wield + Two Hander
    Alt: Altmer Sorceror (Pewpew) 7L - Destro + Resto
  • Jacques Berge
    Jacques Berge
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    Draehl wrote: »
    In PvP. It would be nice to have a sustained damage option for PvE. Logically that would be the shades but they just don't live up to it. Maybe have a conditional effect that they deal less damage in PvP? Or would buffing the damage by 50-100% be unbalanced in PvP on top the stam drain?

    shades is one of the only skills in the game that has 2 good morphs. Summon shades is great for me in pvp, I love em. Their effect isn't exactly imperical in the sense of numbers. Shades is one of the best utility skills in the game in my opinion, good in pvp and end game PVE. Have a damage boost would be close to OP, considering they can't be killed. Simply put, it's a utility skill, does not need to be earth shattering, it's a low cost, fire and forget debuff with a minor DoT. Plus, you ever seen this used on an inexperienced player? It's ther funniest thing you'll ever see in game.
    "Shadow hide you"

    Jacques Berge - v14 NB - DC
  • Draehl
    Draehl
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    Draehl wrote: »
    In PvP. It would be nice to have a sustained damage option for PvE. Logically that would be the shades but they just don't live up to it. Maybe have a conditional effect that they deal less damage in PvP? Or would buffing the damage by 50-100% be unbalanced in PvP on top the stam drain?

    shades is one of the only skills in the game that has 2 good morphs. Summon shades is great for me in pvp, I love em. Their effect isn't exactly imperical in the sense of numbers. Shades is one of the best utility skills in the game in my opinion, good in pvp and end game PVE. Have a damage boost would be close to OP, considering they can't be killed. Simply put, it's a utility skill, does not need to be earth shattering, it's a low cost, fire and forget debuff with a minor DoT. Plus, you ever seen this used on an inexperienced player? It's ther funniest thing you'll ever see in game.

    Fair enough, but again, shades in PvE compared to having the teleport of Shadow Image just don't compare, especially with the attached damage penalty mostly wiping out the gains of using two, which would be the logical choice if you wanted them to up your sustained damage more.

    I suppose I'm just frustrated with the overall poor DoTs in this game and they are what needs adjusting. Crippling Grasp does decent damage (~2x that of Funnel Health) but the main use of the skill is really the Immob/slow/speed boost- one skill slot for a mediocre improvement to throughput just wouldn't cut it without that utility. Agony is just terrible. Entropy is even worse. Soul Trap is a joke. I desperately want to play a DoT + defensive/CC build like I have in games past, but nuking/aoe seem to be the only viable options here. It would be amazing to have just 1 strong throughput DoT. 10-15s duration. Damage of 3-4 nukes, but spread out over time and perhaps backloaded? The reason I mention shades is because they last a good duration. While they might not do strong DPS, a mild-moderate increase in damage could turn it into a solid damage-per-cast skill, again spread out over time. Soul Trap is probably a good candidate for a raw-throughput Dot, that way everyone has access and it wouldn't be class specific.
    Edited by Draehl on January 15, 2015 4:15AM
    Main: Breton Nightblade "Shadow Cleric" (Sustained Damage/offhealer) 5L/2H - Resto + S&B
    Alt: Argonian Dragonknight (Stam DoTs/Tank) 5H/2M - S&B + Bow
    Alt: Nord Templar Berserker (Rawr) 5M/2H - Dual Wield + Two Hander
    Alt: Altmer Sorceror (Pewpew) 7L - Destro + Resto
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