Discussion: Upcoming changes to skills (Reflective Scales)

Sypher · December 2014

I'm fully aware that there are many changes still unannounced regarding the major overhaul happening in 1.6 but I still felt like sharing my point of view regarding reflective scales and a few other things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyFNy24fViM

Let's keep this discussion civil and professional.

JackDaniell · December 2014

Dodge roll will be better than scales now, I think we will be seeing allot more DK stam builds, as stam builds slowly become the master builds of PvP.

Also I am all for this change, to many DK's rely on scales as a crutch when any other class would get slaughtered by ranged. You rarely see a DK using his/her terrain to their advantage to mitigate the number of incoming projectiles in a fight, instead they just stand in a field completely immune to ranged while holding a shield up in a cinderstorm and that is something that no other class can come close to doing. Perhaps 4 projectiles may be to low however.

Ackwalan · December 2014

If there is a 4 max hit that it reflect, perhaps the duration could be increased.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · December 2014

I don't main a DK but I played against them to know how frustrating OMAC builds can be. It's funny doing it but not fun fighting it. I remember one time seeing our tanks dancing back and forth along the wall under enemy players and I kept hearing that Trolololol song in my mind watching them boucne everything thrown at them. Something was needed but I'd more support options to combat it rather than a blunt force nerf. Like having heavy attacks non-reflectable since unlike the way it is in ESO heavy attacks in older ES games like Oblivion and Skyrim heavy attacks could break blocks or stagger opponents. The catch is in ESO heavy attacks take a long while to charge, so time you spend doing that is time you're not spending casting quicker, more efficient attacks.

I run a DK alt healer barely lvl 20ish and I specced her with the intention of making a healer that could participate in keep jumps, not knowing how hard it is to actually DO. I slot chains thinking I could use it to yank people being too ballsy into the range of our raid group. I didn't know about the adding CC immunity, or that it can be blocked, or worse that scales apparently refelct it so you yank YOURSELF to your target if your target is another DK.

People may be going Linda Blair over the announced delay of Imperial City and the projected PTS date of update 6, but if it's as big as they say it's going to be, they'll need the time to spitpolish it. ZOS should probably think less about nerfing the 'op' builds out there and buffing other abilities so classes are less pigeonholed into FOTM builds or the most efficient build. If I want to play a Morrowind style spellsword or witchhunter, I damnwell should be able to.

Sypher · December 2014

The more I think about it, the less I am bothered by the nerf.

I thought that the nerf to harness ruined the skill, and yet I am still using it effectively and I like the skill.

I guess patience and time will tell. I'm eager to see all the changes ZOS has planned for 1.6!

Sanct16 · December 2014

Well Harness was a way to sustain magicka. Now it is a free shield. For duels its nice but for bigger battles the shield will be down instantly. Same will be the case for Reflect.

Oughash · December 2014

I think a good chunk of the problem is as you stated right at the beginning of the video: player feedback. We need to know instantly when the skill goes down. The preferred method would be to have a counter shown on a debuffs/buffs status bar, along with everything else that doesn't get shown (DoTs, HoTs, health debuffs, burning, &c)! Really wish this functionality was built into the game b/c the add-ons to implement these feature don't work correctly or consistently since they are forced to make an estimate of the timers rather than receive the information directly from the API.

Plus, a status bar would help promote smart play.

SoulScream · December 2014

I would definitely like to see the UI do more as mentioned above. I have found ways to use scales against a dk with my temp so I don't care if the nerf happens or not. I don't like seeing more nerfs though.

Soulac · December 2014

Did u ever Dodge roll in an enemy group? Happy dying.

It's good if they would fix it, but will they do it?

AhPook_Is_Here · December 2014

JackDaniell wrote: »

Dodge roll will be better than scales now, I think we will be seeing allot more DK stam builds, as stam builds slowly become the master builds of PvP.

I don't know if STA builds will be very popular, leather is the squishyish armor type around, DKs have no escape ability, while this might work well in dueling scenarios, you will be forced into hist bark leather sets and medium armor actives to survive, and a NB in addition to being able to escape will get 30% more dodge in the same circumstance and more damage from stealth.

I see these more as suicide builds where if you have the bigger zerg you can help carry the momentum but if you are in a smaller group your lack of survival skills is going to handicap your group into wasting resources keeping you alive or they will just be smart and let you die. One of your weapon sets would still have to be s/b if you would want any staying power at all.

c0rp · December 2014

The skill is still strong in 1v1 and small scale battles after the change. It will no longer make you a God among zergs anymore. A great change.

Sypher · December 2014

c0rp wrote: »

The skill is still strong in 1v1 and small scale battles after the change. It will no longer make you a God among zergs anymore. A great change.

But it's perfectly fine for me to be a god amongst zergy on my Nightblade? (Siphon tank build)

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · December 2014

I play a nb and I think its a bad idea. Having to face tough enemies force you to think about your build and playstyle. In the end facing reflective scales made me break out of the usual archer mindset and into a much more rewarding versatile build.

If the solution to everything simply is to get it nerfed then in the long run everyone will suffer and no one will improve themselves.

PS: mass hysteria is not OP at all dum di dum......

Jitterbug · December 2014

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

The skill is still strong in 1v1 and small scale battles after the change. It will no longer make you a God among zergs anymore. A great change.

But it's perfectly fine for me to be a god amongst zergy on my Nightblade? (Siphon tank build)

Isn't the thread about scales or am I wrong?

tplink3r1 · December 2014

i dont really see a problem on DKs being tanky in zergs, otherwise they would have to play as a caster/archer like 80% of the game.

Sypher · December 2014

Jitterbug wrote: »

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

The skill is still strong in 1v1 and small scale battles after the change. It will no longer make you a God among zergs anymore. A great change.

But it's perfectly fine for me to be a god amongst zergy on my Nightblade? (Siphon tank build)

Isn't the thread about scales or am I wrong?

It is, but the reason behind the Dk nerf was a Dk with reflect could hold off mindless zergy for a short period of time.

A lot of pure Rangers think this nerf will make them useful against Dks with reflect. While in reality, the only way there hits will land is if they have 3-5 other Rangers shooting at the same DK.

This nerf only affects outnumbered scenarios. Where a change like doubling the cost if it's spammed will affect all scenarios and be a better balance change all around.

Joy_Division · December 2014

I think your thoughts in the video are right on target.

Ironically, the nerf will probably have the opposite effect of what would be best for overall gameplay.

Scales was most powerful in a 1v1 situation when a DK could effectively shut-down a ranged projectile user. The ranged user is kind of screwed because they have to resort to suboptimal abilities and do not have the option to switch to a more appealing target or teammates that can help them. If I am a ranged user, this is the type of scenario I'd like to see scales nerfed. But, as you point out, in 1v1 situations, the nerf will be irrelevant because I am not going to hit myself with 4 venom arrows just to lower a DK's shield.

In a 20v20+ situation, to a ranged-user scales is a minor inconvenience because I could choose 19 other targets. From a DKs perspective, I'd much rather have a reliable scales in this environment than 1v1 because I have other viable options available to deal with a single ranged user. Now, I do not know what will happen when I use the skill at precisely the moment I need it the most. It makes planning a tactical move difficult because I don't know if I will get 4 seconds of ranged defense or 1.

Ironically, we got the opposite of what would be the ideal compromise nerf. If given the choice, I think DK and ranged users would prefer the nerf to have the most effect in small scale fights but instead it is in the large scale fights where the ranged user is indifferent and the DK needs that skill where the nerf will be most pronounced.

Night-claw · December 2014

JackDaniell wrote: »

You rarely see a DK using his/her terrain to their advantage to mitigate the number of incoming projectiles

i must be rare dk then

i use the terrian to my advantage when and were i can but there is one problem with this projectiles can go thu terrain im not sure if they fixed this yet hope they do extremely annoying.

i don't approve of the change to rs. they could have done better than reduce it to this

hope they make it if its going this way 4 projectiles per player until effect end switch is 4 sec if it was like this id be happy enough.

or give give it a cooldown? before you re cast it so it not spammable

Thejollygreenone · December 2014

Night-claw wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

You rarely see a DK using his/her terrain to their advantage to mitigate the number of incoming projectiles

i must be rare dk then i use the terrian to my advantage when and were i can but there is one problem with this projectiles can go thu terrain im not sure if they fixed this yet hope they do extremely annoying.

i don't approve of the change to rs. they could have done better than reduce it to this

hope they make it if its going this way 4 projectiles per player until effect end switch is 4 sec if it was like this id be happy enough.

or give give it a cooldown? before you re cast it so it not spammable

This is actually pretty common in target based MMOs, even though this is only barely a target based MMO.

That being the idea that projectiles, as long as cast when in line of sight of the target and being properly targeted, will ALWAYS magically fly to their target unobstructed, unless by target intervention with dodge or reflect or whatever.

However the old line of sight rules still apply, you can't shoot someone with a projectile who is standing on the other side of a tree, for example, simply because you can't target them. This is what I believe @JackDaniell was referring to.

Now on the subject of the change to scales, it certainly doesn't seem like the best approach to the situation.

However, I can still see myself using the nerf to my advantage in a 1v1 situation, with light attack weaving and liberal use of dodges or weak attacks one could theoretically break scales prematurely at around 2 seconds in.

It's not great, but it's something. And then of course the change is highly effective as a nerf in group content, although I totally agree the changes should have effected 1v1 combat more and group combat less, and they're kinda doing the opposite.

As a minimalist I can say I'm just happy that any noticeable change is being made to the ability ^.^

Garetth · December 2014

People may be going Linda Blair over the announced delay of Imperial City and the projected PTS date of update 6, but if it's as big as they say it's going to be, they'll need the time to spitpolish it.

You mean "spitpolish it" like when they put stuff on the PTS where hundreds of people point out the bugs, imbalances, etc. and they just ignore the comments and patch it to the live servers.

Then when these same bugs and imbalances show up live and people are upset they pretend it's the first time they have heard about them and then take months to fix them if they do at all.

You mean "spitpolish" like that?

Sallington · December 2014

IMO it should give give them an armor boost and reflect the next projectile cast at them.

If they want to reflect everything shot at them, they better do nothing but spam it.

Jitterbug · December 2014

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

The skill is still strong in 1v1 and small scale battles after the change. It will no longer make you a God among zergs anymore. A great change.

But it's perfectly fine for me to be a god amongst zergy on my Nightblade? (Siphon tank build)

Isn't the thread about scales or am I wrong?

It is, but the reason behind the Dk nerf was a Dk with reflect could hold off mindless zergy for a short period of time.

A lot of pure Rangers think this nerf will make them useful against Dks with reflect. While in reality, the only way there hits will land is if they have 3-5 other Rangers shooting at the same DK.

This nerf only affects outnumbered scenarios. Where a change like doubling the cost if it's spammed will affect all scenarios and be a better balance change all around.

Good point, but isn't it mainly the outnumbered scenario making gen pop complain?

david.haypreub18_ESO · December 2014

I think you make some very good points that I agree with completely, especially about heavy armor not being as viable and the game needing to do a better job of balancing heavy and light.

That said... wow, hearing some of your complaints makes me appreciate how good DKs have it compared to other classes. Your main complaint about chains is that it gives an immunity timer? Welcome to the world of the other classes, whose CC has immunity timers (and you still have Talons!). Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying chains is good, and I know that ZOS has wrecked it... but complaining that one of your CCs has an immunity timer just shows how great DKs have had it up till now.

Similarly, you say you're pigeonholed into using S/B or 2Handed to get a gap closer because your class ability is subpar? Welcome to the world of the Templar my friend. Imagine if ZOS stealth introduced a global cool down to chains, as they did to Toppling Charge, which stops you from doing anything for a couple of seconds after you use it.

You make some good suggestions, and I don't mean to be harsh, but wow... have DKs ever had it good.

Gaettusk · December 2014

Came in here expecting illogical QQ, but I was pleasantly surprised. As a stam build DK since Beta, don't make more DKs become like me. It's a squalid existence on the fringe of society, begging for the AP scraps of the top dogs. I am but a mere mortal in a coliseum of immortals.

Tintinabula · December 2014

DKs are the "go to" class when looking for a target because we have effective skills. Call it OP or most balanced class or class that got the most attention or class that has the best synergies. OR we simply are the class that has the most flare and the class that is specifically designed to be stage front.

For anyone who sits back and thinks reflective scale is the end all "i win" button, your gravely mistaken. Sure, I can cast reflective scales back to back but that doesn't cover melee or aoes.

If you're ranged and nothing but ranged and you cant counter reflective scales that's your mistake..not scales being OP.

I've had plenty of NBs shut me down while sorcs took my attention casting shards while i was casting reflective scales..didn't help then.

I've been charged and stunned while casting scales..didn't help then.

If I'm casting scales every 4 seconds there's not a lot I can do in between..yes, I can still dps but not half as effective while on defense and using scales is fighting defensively.

I snipe DKs all the time who use scales and I'm a DK who use scales. Yea, Ive killed myself a rare few times but generally a little bit of timing and learning to dodge roll reflected stuff saves you.

With these changes its gonna be a lottery sorta..I might fire at a dk who used scales but hope that hes been hit by 4 other snipers..or two other snipers twice before they realize they have to re cast.

Only time I use it now is to reflect reflects usually anyways.

Erock25 · December 2014

I don't like this change just because how will I know if the DK has been hit 4 times or not yet???? I'm sure there is some minor glowy aura type particle effect, but I can't be expected to see that all the time from distance. They should give Reflective Scale the Bolt Escape treatment, only having the duration for 50% extra cost being 8 seconds, as scales lasts for 4 as is.

Sypher · December 2014

Erock25 wrote: »

I don't like this change just because how will I know if the DK has been hit 4 times or not yet???? I'm sure there is some minor glowy aura type particle effect, but I can't be expected to see that all the time from distance. They should give Reflective Scale the Bolt Escape treatment, only having the duration for 50% extra cost being 8 seconds, as scales lasts for 4 as is.

Another good idea someone suggested was to make reflective scales cost like 100 magicka and make every reflected spell cost an extra 100 magicka.

JackDaniell · December 2014

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Dodge roll will be better than scales now, I think we will be seeing allot more DK stam builds, as stam builds slowly become the master builds of PvP.

I don't know if STA builds will be very popular, leather is the squishyish armor type around, DKs have no escape ability, while this might work well in dueling scenarios, you will be forced into hist bark leather sets and medium armor actives to survive, and a NB in addition to being able to escape will get 30% more dodge in the same circumstance and more damage from stealth.

I see these more as suicide builds where if you have the bigger zerg you can help carry the momentum but if you are in a smaller group your lack of survival skills is going to handicap your group into wasting resources keeping you alive or they will just be smart and let you die. One of your weapon sets would still have to be s/b if you would want any staying power at all.

I disagree

A medium armour build that is built to last can be arguably more sustainable than a maigcka counterpart. As a Templar I run 6 med 1 heavy, use only two magicka skills (blazing shield and purifying ritual) alongside immovable and rally. I think I am more tanky now than I have even been in PvP, not to mention I can move much faster than most classes using bow/2h for mobility and burst. This setup actually works quite well for 1vX because can be so tanky and burst people down with combos in 1-2 seconds.

Galalin · December 2014

Not a big fan of nerfs and it seems eso swings the nerf hammer far to often rather than adjusting other classes to have a counter. I think a morph of say snipe frags etc that would do less damage but cannot be reflected much like unresistable damage but still prone to block. I think the reason we are seeing this cry for nerf is eso's incompetence to adjust skills in an appropriate manner. By buffing bows to the point almost everyone is using them would obviously make the best counter to them in the game a target for nerf crys.

I sure hope that in the future they put thier nerf bats away and look at the root causes of why ppl cry nerf and make the changes necessary for classes to counter the said ability rather than continually removing the viable options to a build one by one until they end up with only one viable build per class.

1.6 is my last chance and if they don't get all these changes right, i don't believe they ever will and most likely will retire.

Added: many games have been detroyed by nerf bats if you look at the most successful MMO's they tend to make minor buffs to other classes to counter abilities deemed to strong. If a game continually nerfs it kills all players moral eventually and eventually the game

Galalin · December 2014

And if they are intent on nerfing personally i think the sensible option would be to reduce the damage reflected to maybe 25% instead of the number of projectiles. This would allow DK's to still do whats intended and thats tanking

Tintinabula · December 2014

I want a counter above reflective scales now please. Half the crap thrown on me shows no animation or graphic.

whole point of being a "tanking class" is to be able to take damage from multiple targets. This nerf makes it so DKs will barely be able to "tank" two range.