Action Bar Mod. R.I.P Alphatools... Now what?

Alphashado · December 2014

First let me say thank you to @AlphaLemming. I very much enjoyed both of his addons as many thousands of others did as well. They were very well done and I am sure required an enormous amount of time and dedication to create and maintain.

A moderate amount of research has revealed that Both Alphatools and Craftstore have been removed due to the above mentioned author deciding to retain the use of these addons for friends only. That is fine. As the author and creator of these addons, he is entitled to do with them as he wishes. But my question is this:

What now? There are a few different mods that keep track of crafting traits, but I can't seem to find anything even close to the dynamic way Alphatools allowed us to manage skill bars. It has a very smooth and nice looking UI allowing several action bar compositions to be saved and installed via a mouse click on the UI or via hotkey.

After asking around a bit I have found that I am certainly not the only one that has grown very attached to this addon. It has become a fundamental part of my gameplay. But I haven't been able to find anything even close to replace it. I looked around a few months ago out of curiosity and didn't find much. After a casual glance at the addon menu, I don't see anything new.

So maybe I am missing a diamond in the rough? I figured I would post this in hopes that other Alphatools users may have come across a good substitute. Luckily the old mod still works, but it causes errors and it's only a matter of time before we will have to put the old gal to rest.

Maybe someone with experience writing addon scripts will see this post and feel compelled to create one since it seems to be in very high demand. I'm sure it's a thankless job, but rest assured that despite any negative feedback you get, there are many thousands of silent users that very much enjoy your work.

Ourorboros · December 2014

Agree 100% with your post. I'll continue using CraftStore at least until all my traits are researched. Just a suggestion...maybe repeat this thread in the Add-on category. That might improve odds of finding someone to pick up the torch on this. That's happened for a couple other add-ons I use.

Alphashado · December 2014

Ourorboros wrote: »

Agree 100% with your post. I'll continue using CraftStore at least until all my traits are researched. Just a suggestion...maybe repeat this thread in the Add-on category. That might improve odds of finding someone to pick up the torch on this. That's happened for a couple other add-ons I use.

Thanks, that is a good suggestion. I copy/pasted to a thread over there. You know, I've been playing this game and prowling this forum since it's creation, and I never realized there was a add on category lol. Sad. Guess I should pay more attention.

Hopefully the mods will leave this thread here too though, in case someone can shed some light on the situation. Clearly the addon forum is kinda buried and gets little attention.

Nestor · December 2014

While there was a goofy change to the way Craftstore tracked alts research needs in the last update, that mod was hands down the best crafting mod made. I miss it dearly.

However with the new Dwemer gear being done the way it is, it probably made integrating that problematical with they way the rest of the motifs and research is. I can see why that mod was retired, but I wish it could be resurrected.

Koensol · December 2014

Wykkyd's outfitter is pretty nice for making and selecting premade builds on your action bar.

TehMagnus · December 2014

Wykkyd isn't as good as Alpha Tools sadly. I really really liked the last version of ALpha tools. It's kinda lame though to refuse thousands of players the ability to use an awesome tool just because some [snip]iots can't help but to complain and also to refuse anyone taking over his work to improve the addon and keep up the good work...

Then again, the lamest part of it all is ZOS's sucky UI.

static_recharge · December 2014

See Wykkyd's Outfitter for skill bars (also does gear swapping). Check out all of Wykkyd's other addons as well, they are very high quality and he keeps them all up to date.

AaronMB · December 2014

Alpha Tools and CraftStore works well for me. Too bad...

I rather like Wykkyd's various tools. His Outfitter has never worked correctly for me, unfortunately (I often get booted for spam after it tries and usually fails to swap, even though what it's doing shouldn't register as spam, from what I've read). I do have lots of addons.

ZOS_ShannonM · December 2014

Hey Folks.
We moved this thread from the General Discussion Section to the Add-Ons & UI Mod Section of the forums, as we feel this is a better fit. Thank you for understanding.

timidobserver · December 2014

Wykkyd Outfitter is the only viable alternative. Outfitter currently works with no bugs or errors that I have experienced.

Alphashado · December 2014

ZOS_ShannonM wrote: »

Hey Folks.
We moved this thread from the General Discussion Section to the Add-Ons & UI Mod Section of the forums, as we feel this is a better fit. Thank you for understanding.

In other words: "We buried it. We wanted to put it someplace where nobody would read it. We don't care about this game, we don't care about the community, and we don't care if you know that we don't care."

"Thanks, have a nice day."

Obviously that is blown out of proportion and likely untrue, but that is how it looks sometimes. I have been a staunch supporter of this game since the beginning. But it's getting harder and harder every single day. I will not hesitate to point out flaws in this game. Not because I hate it, but because I want it to succeed. Burying this topic in a forum that nobody ever reads doesn't help anyone or anything.

Maybe if you didn't FORCE us to rely on addons in order to make this game feel like the AAA MMO that it SHOULD and COULD be, we wouldn't be so freakin devastated every time one of the addon authors pulled their material. And I can't say that I blame them. What incentive is there for them to write and maintain addons for a dying game? Either start paying people that develop quality addons or start designing them as optional mods yourself. This is getting ridiculous.

Thechemicals · December 2014

alpha tools was alright....wykkids is better support and update. As far as making an addon for everyone and then saying its only for a select few....yeah your a ***.

eventide03b14a_ESO · December 2014

Thechemicals wrote: »

alpha tools was alright....wykkids is better support and update. As far as making an addon for everyone and then saying its only for a select few....yeah your a ***.

That is a pretty crappy thing to do assuming it's true. There are many people who used the addons myself included and we would have gladly supported the author had we know there were issues.

ZOS_ShannonM · December 2014

Apologies for any confusion, @Alphashado. Rest assured that it was not our intention to bury this thread. We do have to make sure that threads are in their proper place to promote organized discussion. We hope this clears things up!

Thechemicals · December 2014

I just want to say that Shannon heavily moderates threads for the benefit of certain members.Do with that what you like.

katkat42 · December 2014

Thechemicals wrote: »

As far as making an addon for everyone and then saying its only for a select few....yeah your a ***.

And this sort of treatment is one reason why addon authors burn out.

Alphashado · December 2014

katkat42 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

As far as making an addon for everyone and then saying its only for a select few....yeah your a ***.

And this sort of treatment is one reason why addon authors burn out.

Most likely. They probably get much more negative feedback than positive feedback simply because happy people are often quietly happy. So if 20,000 people are using the mod and 50 of them are loudly critical, then it would be easy for an author to feel overwhelmed with negative feedback.

That being said, it's certainly easy to understand where @Thechemicals is coming from. Because from the outside looking in, it seems like a classic "I'm taking my ball and going home" scenario. But at the end of the day, the ball was free. We got to play with it for free. And if the owner wants to take his ball home, then so be it.

The more important issue is that there needs to be more incentive for programmers to create and maintain mods. Especially here, where the UI was designed to be bare in anticipation of a large amount of addons.

Ourorboros · December 2014

The more important issue is that there needs to be more incentive for programmers to create and maintain mods. Especially here, where the UI was designed to be bare in anticipation of a large amount of addons.

Players do have the option to donate to the authors. I don't how much support they get, and I wonder if having to already pay a sub for ESO stops players from supporting authors. I do think it's past time for ZOS to re-evaluate their position on add-ons and their UI. The player base is currently at the mercy of add-on authors, and the situation with ALPHA TOOLS and CRAFTSTORE is a perfect example. We are powerless if authors pull their add-on or otherwise stop support for patches. And from the frequent forum posts, it seems pretty clear most players would welcome UI options from ZOS incorporating some of the most popular add-ons. It's one thing to allow the use of add-ons, but it feels like a Catch-22 that ZOS offers no support when every patch they issue seems to break a good many add-ons.

Bouvin · December 2014

Ourorboros wrote: »

The more important issue is that there needs to be more incentive for programmers to create and maintain mods. Especially here, where the UI was designed to be bare in anticipation of a large amount of addons.

Players do have the option to donate to the authors. I don't how much support they get, and I wonder if having to already pay a sub for ESO stops players from supporting authors. I do think it's past time for ZOS to re-evaluate their position on add-ons and their UI. The player base is currently at the mercy of add-on authors, and the situation with ALPHA TOOLS and CRAFTSTORE is a perfect example. We are powerless if authors pull their add-on or otherwise stop support for patches. And from the frequent forum posts, it seems pretty clear most players would welcome UI options from ZOS incorporating some of the most popular add-ons. It's one thing to allow the use of add-ons, but it feels like a Catch-22 that ZOS offers no support when every patch they issue seems to break a good many add-ons.

I can pretty much guarantee you if people were donating that authors wouldn't pull them.

But how many people actually donate?

Alphashado · December 2014

Bouvin wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

The more important issue is that there needs to be more incentive for programmers to create and maintain mods. Especially here, where the UI was designed to be bare in anticipation of a large amount of addons.

Players do have the option to donate to the authors. I don't how much support they get, and I wonder if having to already pay a sub for ESO stops players from supporting authors. I do think it's past time for ZOS to re-evaluate their position on add-ons and their UI. The player base is currently at the mercy of add-on authors, and the situation with ALPHA TOOLS and CRAFTSTORE is a perfect example. We are powerless if authors pull their add-on or otherwise stop support for patches. And from the frequent forum posts, it seems pretty clear most players would welcome UI options from ZOS incorporating some of the most popular add-ons. It's one thing to allow the use of add-ons, but it feels like a Catch-22 that ZOS offers no support when every patch they issue seems to break a good many add-ons.

I can pretty much guarantee you if people were donating that authors wouldn't pull them.

But how many people actually donate?

There in lies the crux of the issue. While I doubt many people would intentionally snub addon authors, I believe it's more along the lines of people feeling they shouldn't have to pay for basic UI functions when they are already paying a subscription. Seems to me that ZoS is the one leaching here, not the subscriber. They are saving research and development money by putting out a drab UI and counting on pro bono authors to create/maintain/update 2cnd party mods to keep their customers happy. Without paying them a dime. It's a win/win for ZoS. The losers are the authors that have to update and rescript their addons every week after every patch, and the subscribers who are already paying a subscription and now feel obligated to pay extra for fear of losing features that should be included to begin with.

It's really an ugly situation where nobody is happy except ZoS. All they would have to do is cut a tiny royalty per download. If the addon sucks, it won't get many downloads and they won't have to pay much. If the addon is great, then it will get many thousands of downloads and that tiny royalty would add up to a significant enough amount to keep the authors interested.

Another thing to keep in mind is that an author may just simply decide they don't want to play the game anymore. If they aren't playing the game, then there would likely be no interest in maintaining a program for that game. And if the addon is copywrite protected, then the author may not feel comfortable letting someone else take the helm so to speak.

The issue just seems to boil down to incentive.

TehMagnus · December 2014

AFAIK, you can't, with Wykkyd, load a whole set of armor AND both weapon bars with one key. (you can work with the macros but you need to bind 3 keys and include a weapon swap no?)

Thechemicals · December 2014

katkat42 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

As far as making an addon for everyone and then saying its only for a select few....yeah your a ***.

And this sort of treatment is one reason why addon authors burn out.

What other treatment should one give of a person who makes an addon for everyone and then stops and makes it for a select few only?Im not sure what you would like the community to think on what was done.

timidobserver · December 2014

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

alpha tools was alright....wykkids is better support and update. As far as making an addon for everyone and then saying its only for a select few....yeah your a ***.

That is a pretty crappy thing to do assuming it's true. There are many people who used the addons myself included and we would have gladly supported the author had we know there were issues.

I thought the same thing until I saw what is going on with Shopkeeper and all of the various versions of it that have cropped up that are mostly worse than what the original version that the author left. I can now completely understand why the author of AlphaTools just pulled his addon down rather than leaving it with an open license for other others to trash it.

Bouvin wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

The more important issue is that there needs to be more incentive for programmers to create and maintain mods. Especially here, where the UI was designed to be bare in anticipation of a large amount of addons.

Players do have the option to donate to the authors. I don't how much support they get, and I wonder if having to already pay a sub for ESO stops players from supporting authors. I do think it's past time for ZOS to re-evaluate their position on add-ons and their UI. The player base is currently at the mercy of add-on authors, and the situation with ALPHA TOOLS and CRAFTSTORE is a perfect example. We are powerless if authors pull their add-on or otherwise stop support for patches. And from the frequent forum posts, it seems pretty clear most players would welcome UI options from ZOS incorporating some of the most popular add-ons. It's one thing to allow the use of add-ons, but it feels like a Catch-22 that ZOS offers no support when every patch they issue seems to break a good many add-ons.

I can pretty much guarantee you if people were donating that authors wouldn't pull them.

But how many people actually donate?

Eh, I already pay ZOS for the game. I am not willing to pay a dime more for extra features. IMO, it should be on ZOS to provide some kind of incentive program for addon authors. They could take an amount equal to %20 of the monthly salary of the lowest paid intern and send out some gift cards or give out small amounts of free game time.

katkat42 · December 2014

Thechemicals wrote: »

katkat42 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

As far as making an addon for everyone and then saying its only for a select few....yeah your a ***.

And this sort of treatment is one reason why addon authors burn out.

What other treatment should one give of a person who makes an addon for everyone and then stops and makes it for a select few only?Im not sure what you would like the community to think on what was done.

Perhaps, thank them for ever having made their work available publicly, for free, at all.

Ourorboros · December 2014

Eh, I already pay ZOS for the game. I am not willing to pay a dime more for extra features. IMO, it should be on ZOS to provide some kind of incentive program for addon authors. They could take an amount equal to %20 of the monthly salary of the lowest paid intern and send out some gift cards or give out small amounts of free game time.

This pretty much confirms my earlier post, wherein I guessed players don't pay for add-ons cuz they already pay a sub. And I can't blame them.After paying over $150 for Imperial edition and 6 month sub, I don't want to pay for add-ons. I feel a little guilty about that, some of the add-ons are excellent and indispensable (for me) and the authors keep them updated. But I have a very lean budget, and just my ESO sub is a guilty pleasure.
I think ZOS should pay add-on authors, perhaps based on a percentage of their add-on installed by players. I don't think that will ever happen though. Add-on authors and the add-on users live in a precarious place where we depend on each other for support. Yet players are reluctant to pay beyond the sub, and authors may feel put upon to provide constant updates. The only real winners are players who are happy with default UI and ZOS.

Thechemicals · December 2014

katkat42 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

katkat42 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

As far as making an addon for everyone and then saying its only for a select few....yeah your a ***.

And this sort of treatment is one reason why addon authors burn out.

What other treatment should one give of a person who makes an addon for everyone and then stops and makes it for a select few only?Im not sure what you would like the community to think on what was done.

Perhaps, thank them for ever having made their work available publicly, for free, at all.

I dont think so. If a freeware program went from public to private, there would be outrage. This happens all the time with real programs.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · December 2014

I just use the game UI for seeing what research items I need. I think people get too much hand holding with these addons. Thats why they are so upset when an author removes one they like. You do not need an addon to see what you need for research. Go to any crafting station take 2 seconds and look.

That being said if any addon is going to be good there needs to be payment of some kind involved. If the person is doing it for free it will get old quickly.

Ourorboros · December 2014

I just use the game UI for seeing what research items I need. I think people get too much hand holding with these addons. Thats why they are so upset when an author removes one they like. You do not need an addon to see what you need for research. Go to any crafting station take 2 seconds and look.

You're a better man than I, Gunga Dhin, if it's that easy for you to check needed traits. I found it a lot trickier to figure out what traits I needed without spending considerable time and sometimes deconning traits I needed. Couple add-ons did make the process faster and more reliable. Point is, not everyone shares your POV and/or experience, and that doesn't make us wrong for using add-ons.

Garkin · December 2014

Bouvin wrote: »

I can pretty much guarantee you if people were donating that authors wouldn't pull them.

But how many people actually donate?

In case of SkyShards addon it is about 1 person out of 500 users:

SkyShards has about 1.4 millons of downloads from ESOUI and Curse. There was 45 versions, so 1,400,000 / 45 ~= 31,111. Some people downloads addon more then once and on the other hand not all users have downloaded all verson, so lets say every third user downloads addon twice: 31,111 / 1.33 ~= 23,392 users. I got 48 donations for SkyShards, so it is 1 person out of 487 users.

Ourorboros · December 2014

Garkin wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

I can pretty much guarantee you if people were donating that authors wouldn't pull them.

But how many people actually donate?

In case of SkyShards addon it is about 1 person out of 500 users:

SkyShards has about 1.4 millons of downloads from ESOUI and Curse. There was 45 versions, so 1,400,000 / 45 ~= 31,111. Some people downloads addon more then once and on the other hand not all users have downloaded all verson, so lets say every third user downloads addon twice: 31,111 / 1.33 ~= 23,392 users. I got 48 donations for SkyShards, so it is 1 person out of 487 users.

Those are startling numbers, Garkin, thanks for sharing. As a popular add-on developer, you add a lot of legitimacy to UI discussions. I know you've assisted other add-on authors. Are you a player too? Do you think the sub is a barrier to more donations to authors? What keeps you motivated to maintain your add-ons instead of pulling them as in the case of CraftStore and AlphaTools?

Garkin · December 2014

I do not play much lately, and to be honest I enjoy more playing with addon code then playing the game itself.

As for donations - I'm pretty sure that no one creates addon because he wants donations from players. You will never get enough money to pay your time. But yes, it feels good when you receive donation from satisfied addon user and you can have one more beer with friends or even pay your subscription from that.

What keeps me motivated? Probably positive feedback and high number of downloads. If you don't feel that your work is appreciated, you will get fed up with work on addons pretty fast.