[Bugged] VR Spindleclutch, Praxin Duare encounter

Harleyquincey · November 2014

Hello everyone and also specifically @ZoS_JessicaFolsom (since I brought this up at the last ESO Live, albeit with only a quick note)

The encounter with Praxin Duare and his waves of adds is currently broken. Usually this fight is supposed to go like this:

Wave 1 - Plethora of tiny spiders
Wave 2 - Big spider and a few small ones
Wave 3 - Humanoid adds spawn, among them 2 Healers and 2 Evokers
Wave 4 - A spider miniboss spawns and some more adds

Afterwards you fight Praxin Duare himself.

Currently this is not working like this. Instead Waves 3+4 very often (7 out of 10 times it seemed) spawn together or within 2-3 seconds to another. Add to this that Praxin Duare himself tends to join the fight while you're still dealing with Big Rabbu and the other spawned minibosses.

This is apparently because of..

a) The minibosses (even scaled to VR10) have more health than bosses in DSA (scaled to VR14)
b) the spawn mechanics for the waves are borked
c) Praxin's early interference could either be a bug or due to the above mentioned things going horribly wrong.

Group setup:
VR 14 DK Tank (me)
VR 14 Templar Healer
VR 11 DK DPS (Dual-Wield / Bow)
VR 10 NB DPS (Destruction Staff)

Gear-wise we're all wearing at least purple gear (and legendary in case of the two VR14, including the Malubeth 2-piece-set on me as Tank) plus Enchantments and buff-food and whatnot of course.

Dungeon scaled down to VR10. Still not got past this, despite clearing all the other VR dungeons hardmodes with ease, even on VR 14

Please do take a close look at this since this is really annoying us, a band of people that has been playing together since more than three years by now and cleared plenty of content anywhere, really.

Similiar reports are coming in from others in guilds we are part of, so it's not just us failing. I realize some others beat this and yes, we'd probably beat it as well if all of the DPS went for Crushing Shock builds (which isn't even possible for the NB)... but this is clearly not the point of doing content together since we obviously work exceedingly well as a team elsewhere.

Thank you for your attention (and please don't do the obvious L2P comments, we're far from being the only ones with these issues and as I said we clear pretty much the rest of the game as well)

Duccea · November 2014

I agree, while the scaling in the other VR dungeons is fine, this particular fight seems way over the top due to a combination of buggy spawns and ridiculous health on the "minibosses".

Personally, I won't bother with this dungeon anymore until it has been looked at. It's just too frustrating.

ZOS_LenaicR · November 2014

Hi @Harleyquinceyeb17_ESO,

Many thanks for your report, we are aware of this issue.

In the meantime, we invite your group to leave the boss room. It will reset back to the start of the encounter and stop the wave events.

We appreciate your patience while we're working on this problem.

Harleyquincey · November 2014

@ZOS_LenaicR‌
Thank you for taking the time to affirm you are aware of the issue, however the second part of your reply sadly will not help us - since we, of course, would like to progress past that boss for Saturday's VR pledges. Since the encounter mechanics are broken the things I described actually happen around 7 out of 10 times (and I'm already on the lower side of that estimate).

It is actually that bad that there's threads where people do no longer even remember how the spawn mechanics were supposed to be and I did have to draw from memory from before the scaling (since whatever happened to these spawn mechanics, has come with that patch).

So, I'm really looking forward for a fix to this. Cheers and thanks again for acknowledging the report

Patchre · November 2014

I agree reseting the encounter doesn't really work, because it bugs out almost every time. For us there is no way we can do it right now. Glad you are working on it though.

ZOS_LenaicR · November 2014

Our apologies for this.

We will let you know when we have more information.

Gyudan · November 2014

Harleyquinceyeb17_ESO wrote: »

Group setup:
VR 14 DK Tank (me)
VR 14 Templar Healer
VR 11 DK DPS (Dual-Wield / Bow)
VR 10 NB DPS (Destruction Staff)

Get a sorcerer with Negate Magic (sorry if this class is a bit underpowered compared to double DK). It will enable you to clear the waves with many adds easily.

Harleyquinceyeb17_ESO wrote: »

Thank you for your attention (and please don't do the obvious L2P comments, we're far from being the only ones with these issues and as I said we clear pretty much the rest of the game as well)

Sorry but L2P.

I've enjoyed that fight every time it came up for the daily undaunted quests. It's a bit challenging but I love the mechanisms. If it's too hard for you, it's always possible to downgrade the dungeon to VR1 and complete it this way.
Please don't nerf.

Harleyquincey · November 2014

@Gyudan‌
I won't bother with any discussion on that since you clearly failed to respect but the simplest request.

I will just, once and for the remainder of this "discussion", state that there won't be a change of the lineup due to obvious reasons (plus there ought not to be since this isn't FotM-Online) and I am reporting BUGS, not difficult encounter mechanics. I'm talking about bugs as obvious as they come.

Downscaling it to VR1 is not an option due to the exact same reasons as exchanging party members and stated above.

This will be all from my side on this as we clearly don't have to "l2p". It's a bugged encounter and we greatly enjoy any intentionally hard content, as I have stated above already.

Gyudan · November 2014

@Harleyquinceyeb17_ESO: I am merely stating that this fight is very doable and that maybe (just maybe) you could try to improve your own skills instead of asking for a nerf.
I have completed it at least 5 times since Update 5 came out. True, it has been challenging a few times with inexperienced PUGs but I haven't given up on it once.

Harleyquincey · November 2014

@Gyudan‌
I have not asked for that. I am very well aware of my own abilities, I've however not come here to brag about my achievements or discuss the matter but to report it. I am also clearly not asking for a nerf but for a fix of broken mechanics. Leave it at that and please refrain from derailing this thread further.

Natjur · November 2014

Harleyquinceyeb17_ESO wrote: »

Currently this is not working like this. Instead Waves 3+4 very often (7 out of 10 times it seemed) spawn together or within 2-3 seconds to another. Add to this that Praxin Duare himself tends to join the fight while you're still dealing with Big Rabbu and the other spawned minibosses.

I thought 3 & 4 where meant to spawn at once (only 3 waves) and when they spawn at different times was the bug..... Ok either way, that encounter needs a twink. Its harder then the rest of the instance. Sure dropping ultimates at the right time makes it a lots easier but still. No one is asking for a nerf, just a review to see if its working as they planned.

Black_Wolf88 · November 2014

my group did spindel at vr12 the other day and we had some problems and sometimes bad luck when it came to this stage.
first few times the waves seemed to spawn as normal but then eventually it became strange as said here before.

After the big spider the mobs and mini bosses spawned irregularly as well as the ghost boss started to help out earlier and earlier to our demise.

In the end when we finished the boss only 3 adds spawned after the big spider. 2 healers, 1 on each side and the small spider.

THE WORST PART ABOUT THIS BOSS/WAVES IS THAT THE 2 MINI BOSSES WITH 100K HEALTH THAT SPAWN AFTER THE BIG SPIDER IS DAMN HARD TO SEE BETWEEN ALL THE SAME LOOKING MOBS. tank have no chance to taunt as he cant find them or get a lock on them.

not only that, the charge/running lane when they knock you down is also way too hard to see in between all the mobs with the same color that is standing on top of each other.

Dagoth_Rac · December 2014

Add bosses before Update 1.5, at VR5:

Brood Mother Nightmare = 16K Health
Big Rabbu Nightmare = 4K Health
Widow Maker Nightmare = 4K Health
Whisperer Nightmare = 17K Health

Add bosses before Update 1.5, at VR2:

Brood Mother Nightmare = 75K Health
Big Rabbu Nightmare = 75K Health
Widow Maker Nightmare = 75K Health
Whisperer Nightmare = 25K Health

Note that is VR2, not VR12.

At VR5, the adds used to amount to 41K Health. Now, at VR2, they have 250K Health. The adds have scaled anywhere from 1.47x more powerful to 18.75x more powerful. The first and last adds, which used to have similar health, now have vastly different health.

Can you imagine four true VR2 players trying to get through that?! If four players of the scaled level are in way over their heads, that is a problem.

This scaling is just flat out broken. I am glad that ZoS has acknowledged this.

Merlin13KAGL · December 2014

Gyudan wrote: »

Harleyquinceyeb17_ESO wrote: »

Group setup:
VR 14 DK Tank (me)
VR 14 Templar Healer
VR 11 DK DPS (Dual-Wield / Bow)
VR 10 NB DPS (Destruction Staff)

Get a sorcerer with Negate Magic (sorry if this class is a bit underpowered compared to double DK). It will enable you to clear the waves with many adds easily.

Sorry but L2P.
I've enjoyed that fight every time it came up for the daily undaunted quests. It's a bit challenging but I love the mechanisms. If it's too hard for you, it's always possible to downgrade the dungeon to VR1 and complete it this way.
Please don't nerf.

Hey @Gyudan, funny thing about bugs. They don't always happen to all people.

In this midst of your L33Tness, did you ever consider that it ran fine when you were in it but can glitch for other people?

I, too, am a seasoned dungeon runner and can vouch for the fact that it does not always scale right and that two encounters can be so drastically different that it becomes almost not possible.

Ran it twice the other day, and can guarantee the timed waves were shorter in between the 2nd run than the first. Two different groups, two different times.

Then add the occasion where the spiders seem to ignore block and armor, wiping the party in 5 seconds. Wave 1, 25 critters hitting for 325 damage each time with Crit Surge and AoE's and heals in place.

After that, the fight would continuous reset before the spiders (wave one) even reached us. And no, we weren't out of bounds or anything like that.

Don't assume because it's not broken for you that it's not broken for others.

Same as the occasional one-shot in BC if you happen to be on the platform when last boss starts in.

Same as the 4x mind controllers summoned sometimes by the Twilight in EH.

They glitched before scaling, quite often, in fact. What makes you automatically assume someone can't play and that things don't still screw up sometimes.

I've been in Vet 1 scaled dungeons that were harder than the original Tier 2's.

No one's asking for a nerf. @Harleyquinceyeb17_ESO‌ 's not asking for a nerf.

He's asking for it to work right.

I'm glad it has for you, but it hasn't always for the rest of us, so keep your L2P comments for those that need it.

Magdalina · December 2014

Um...could anyone confirm what the *intended* mechanic for this fight is? @ZOS_LenaicR?

In my experience waves 3 and 4 overlap about very single time and I've never, even with best groups, been able to defeat ALL ads before Praxin aggroes. But that was sometimes the case before 1.5, too, Praxin's interference seems timed, not set after you down all the ads. You can and should kill every small ad and the big spider by that time, but 2 big humanoid ads keep running around every single time after 1.5 for me. It's doable with a good, very well coordinated group, but it's certainly the hardest fight in the dungeon and one of hardest in game overall.

Would be interesting to know if it's actually not intended.

Also, wave 1 has a charming habit of choosing one special person and pretty much 1 shotting him. Doesn't happen every time, isn't healable or blockable.

Merlin13KAGL · December 2014

The waves used to actually be waves. The exception to that being Wave 4 - Praxin would eventually transform regardless after a period of time.

The first three, however, would not advance until the wave was over.

Wave 2 big spider, for instance, could actually be an opportunity to regain some resources if you did not kill it as quickly as you could.

The problem with the triggers (BC is guilty of this too, Imeril, specifically) is that they are not consistent.

Timed, fine. Event, great.

Consistent, priceless.

Gyudan · December 2014

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Hey @Gyudan, funny thing about bugs. They don't always happen to all people.

In this midst of your L33Tness, did you ever consider that it ran fine when you were in it but can glitch for other people?

I, too, am a seasoned dungeon runner and can vouch for the fact that it does not always scale right and that two encounters can be so drastically different that it becomes almost not possible.

Ran it twice the other day, and can guarantee the timed waves were shorter in between the 2nd run than the first. Two different groups, two different times.

Then add the occasion where the spiders seem to ignore block and armor, wiping the party in 5 seconds. Wave 1, 25 critters hitting for 325 damage each time with Crit Surge and AoE's and heals in place.

After that, the fight would continuous reset before the spiders (wave one) even reached us. And no, we weren't out of bounds or anything like that.

Don't assume because it's not broken for you that it's not broken for others.

Same as the occasional one-shot in BC if you happen to be on the platform when last boss starts in.

Same as the 4x mind controllers summoned sometimes by the Twilight in EH.

They glitched before scaling, quite often, in fact. What makes you automatically assume someone can't play and that things don't still screw up sometimes.

I've been in Vet 1 scaled dungeons that were harder than the original Tier 2's.

No one's asking for a nerf. @Harleyquinceyeb17_ESO‌ 's not asking for a nerf.

He's asking for it to work right.

I'm glad it has for you, but it hasn't always for the rest of us, so keep your L2P comments for those that need it.

I've experience the exact same mechanisms as OP described:
- huge first wave of spiders, doing tons of damage if not cc-ed and taken care of quickly
- the wave after the first human adds spawning quite quickly, with the 2 waves sometimes overlapping if the healers are not interrupted and if there's not enough AoE damage
- minibosses with 100K health
- Praxin joining the fight before the minibosses are down

Even though it's hard, the fight is doable. I'm far from being the only player to have claimed a gold key when that dungeon comes up for the daily pledges ...

I use a sorcerer DPS, which is much less effective than a DK for AOE damage. I've cleared it with 2 sorcerer DPS, 1 templar healer and 1 NB tank (not a single DK).

This fight is one of the most enjoyable dungeon moments for me right now and I guess I'll have to get used to the upcoming "easy" version.

Harleyquincey · December 2014

@Gyudan‌
While you may enjoy it this way, I clearly don't. I do not like broken things, I do not like encounters of a certain difficulty level not being remotely akin to another of the same difficulty level. I am also not willing to play broken encounters to the degree of possible frustration - and why would I? I already have a job.

I also like challenging content that is challenging by design, such as DSA. That shouldn't be hard to understand and frankly I am tiring of explaining this to you over and over and over again. I realize the current bugged encounter is still clearable for some setups or people who are better than me. I don't have a problem with not being able to do something - IF - that is by design and working as intended.

Am I supposed to not report a bug, just because Player X loves it? Hardly a good notion if we're here to enjoy a game together. I've reported some which I loved as well (such as being catapulted halfway across the map during Beta, I loved that) - but a bug is a bug and needs fixing.

@Magdalina‌
As @Merlin13KAGL explained, it's supposed to be waves, I know that since I've been doing this dungeons many many many times before the scaling took place, back when it was working as intended. Spindle and Wayrest were dungeons which I often used to finish up leveling up a VR, so those I know by heart. But actually memory is slowly fading me since it's been borked for a while now and I felt it necessary to report that. From what I got, back at the last ESO Live, ZOS was not aware of this until then, not 100% sure though. So I'm glad it's by now acknoledged and will possibly be fixed some time soon.

Until then I'll simply refrain from doing VR Spindle since yeah, as I said, I don't like broken encounters.

lolo_01b16_ESO · December 2014

I have fought Praxin several times and noticed the following mechanics:
wave 2 starts when wave 1 is down;
wave 3 starts when the big spider of wave 2 is at low health (ca. 10-20%)
wave 4 starts when wave 2 is down
praxin enters the fight when wave 4 boss is on low health
It seems as if the waves can also be activated by a time trigger, but I haven't testet that on all of them.

I personally like it that you can't use the "keep one alive so we have time to regenerate"-strategy anymore.

@Dagoth_Rac are you sure about the health pre 1.5? I thought that I needed more than 4sec to kill them. But maybe I just don't remember correct.

Duccea · December 2014

Harleyquinceyeb17_ESO wrote: »

I also like challenging content that is challenging by design, such as DSA. That shouldn't be hard to understand and frankly I am tiring of explaining this to you over and over and over again. I realize the current bugged encounter is still clearable for some setups or people who are better than me. I don't have a problem with not being able to do something - IF - that is by design and working as intended.

This. Challenges are fine, broken spawn timers not. Praxin always used to be one of the harder encounters in Spindleclutch and required good coordination, and I don't mind it staying that way, as long as it feels fair. I also don't mind not being able to beat something which is working as intended, but since it has been stated that Praxin is being investigated, I am quite sure this encounter does not work as intended.

I've failed on other bosses in other dungeons as well and some of them were very though to beat at first. But it always felt fair, was always possible to analyze what went wrong, what our group lacked in order to kill that boss, and to adjust to this. When there were repeated wipes, we knew we were being "punished" for doing something wrong, and we eventually worked out what to do to survive. With Praxin, we have tried everything we could think of to overcome it, and nothing worked. Unlike other "impossible" challenges, this one just doesn't feel right, or fair, and this is what annoys me, not difficulty per se.

I know there are players out there who beat Praxin despite that - kudos to them. But this is not the norm. This is a dungeon, and even though it's a veteran one, it shouldn't be requiring a perfectly-coordinated, trial-geared group to overcome the bugs. It shouldn't be harder than City of Ash, which, as far as I know, is intended to be the hardest dungeon.
And while there are those who managed to beat Praxin after 1.5, most players I have talked to were either not able to do it at all or barely managed and still said the fight was being bugged. Now, the amount of players I know is certainly too small to be representative of the whole player base, but it still makes me wonder.
I my experience, from what I have heard, about 60-70% of players seem unable to beat this fight. In my opinion, when such a large amount of people - who know the tactics and were previously able to beat this encounter - is affected, it's not a simple matter of learning to play better anymore.

Merlin13KAGL · December 2014

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

I have fought Praxin several times and noticed the following mechanics:
wave 2 starts when wave 1 is down;
wave 3 starts when the big spider of wave 2 is at low health (ca. 10-20%)
wave 4 starts when wave 2 is down
praxin enters the fight when wave 4 boss is on low health
It seems as if the waves can also be activated by a time trigger, but I haven't testet that on all of them.

I personally like it that you can't use the "keep one alive so we have time to regenerate"-strategy anymore.

@Dagoth_Rac are you sure about the health pre 1.5? I thought that I needed more than 4sec to kill them. But maybe I just don't remember correct.

Again, it's the lack of consistency that's making it harder on people than it otherwise would be.

I know we ran it once where wave three happened well before the big spider was anywhere near 20%, and I believe Praxin joining may have a couple different potential triggers.

Regearding the regen, I'm not saying it's a requirement, by any means. It could be a nice breather if you were with three VR1's that had never run it before...a moment to mentally recover, more than resource recover.

A potion has the same overall effect.

Regarding health of bosses, the only detail I know of is quite old now, and when I was originally running these and recording, I did not yet have FTC installed.

I do know that originally, these were completed at their previous level (V5 & V10) while underleveled, and there was nowhere near 75k hp's on the 2nd boss. I ran with a dungeon running guild regularly. Heck, I cut my first teeth on Vet Group Dungeons, gaining most of my first 4 vet levels that way.

The meat of the mechanics needs to be consistent. That's what it comes down to. There are enough random factors and that's a good thing, but if you can't learn triggers or know somewhat what to expect, how will newer people every be able to clear these?

Not asking for easy. Asking for consistent and functional.

Kraven · December 2014

There is a number of threads about the difficulty of the scaled dungeons. In most cases I love the new and improved challenge and whole heartedly support players rising up to the occasion and self improving to over come a situation. Since 1.5 I've done this particular dungeon multiple times every time it comes up as the daily. There are always guildmates who need a hand with it.

We get it done. That said, this fight in particular has a problem with scaling and timing. Part of the problem comes in I believe because fights like this were designed before there was an AE cap and when the cap was implemented no one took the time to realize that the PvE content designed around AE damage would suffer. Prior to 1.5 the cap wasn't much of an issue, however now that these mobs are scaling and even scaled to V1 they have more health than they did prior to 1.5. These waves are taking longer than intended which causes them to stack on top of each other and back up.

Even once you wear down all the waves and you're standing there looking at the ghost + the two mini-bosses that are inevitably still up it takes way too long to beat down the mini bosses. Sure it can be done and some of us do it pretty easily but just looking at this fight it is blatantly obvious it is not working as it should be.