PvP Destroyed

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · November 2014

@Francescolg‌
The overcrowdedness of a campaign has nothing to do with the forward camps. I don't get where you are trying to go with this argument.
As you said, players go play where there is activity and dividing it too much will just cause dead campaigns. Forward don't cause activity, proof is, the current active campaigns are lagging despite them being removed.

Currently, the dead campaigns we have are more due to the "buff server" situation, not that lack of population. The reason why the only few "balanced" campaigns are overcrowded is because the yare the only one still balanced.

Anyway, the appeal of this game isn't PvP 24/7 nor mass of players.
This is something common and many more suitable alternatives exist if that's what you are looking for. Amongst them are Chivalry, War of the Roses, Mount and Blade Warband, even planetside 2 in its simplicity, all of which have smoother combat and less lag.

No, what is unique with AvA is that it is an adaptation of RvR.
There is actually an attempt of creating strategy and meaningfulness to battles in the context of a war. Very few games have that, and even fewer succeed at it.
I actually know of no current alternatives to that style of gameplay. (gw2 and ps2 being failures)

Forward camps were in the way of filling this niche. They were in the way of securing a solid core of players that have no other choice in this day and age.

With FCs, even if bloodporting was to be fixed, you'd still have meaningless and contextless battles around keeps only. Every other camp would be considered a "troll camp" anyway and would get ignored/whined at.

If you don't take into account the "product" point of view. At the very least consider that it makes for a better game. Chess hasn't lasted for centuries because it is action packed and massive, but because it is deep and interesting.
Add logistics and strategy to a game, and you extend its life and the involvment of its playerbase.
Just look at how Eve Online is one of the rare games still expanding its player base after a decade. That's what every MMO should strive for.

Also, you may be satisfied for a quick romp in non stop action over countless similar situations, but every player eventually tires from reapeating the same content non stop.
PvP has the potential for emergent gameplay, and the travel time in this amazingly well crafted world is a tool to create opportunities for variety.
If you just teleport to a keep each tiem you die, you only fight at keeps and the devs have wasted money crafting a world rather than just doing an arena around one castle.

And finally, the travel time between two position of interest in ESO is on the very short end. Eve, Darkfall, DayZ, Counter Strike, heck, even some mobas have longer respawn timers and travel times than that.
If you can't handle a couple minutes on a horse, travel that at anytime can be interupted by organic battles due to the front evolving, then perhaps you should look into alternatives more adequate to your tastes.
And I don't mean this in a bad way, not everyone has to like RvR style games.

Tintinabula · November 2014

response times as opposed to siege times are too different now..takes a matter of a few minutes to siege a keep while it takes atleast 5 mins to travel between keeps.

No FCS and depending strictly on Soul gems makes any prolonged siege impossible.Once you die if friends aren't around to soul gem rezz you, you're ignored.

Regardless ZOS never intended for FCs to be removed permanently. The fact they took them out so abruptly for NA and allowed EU to horde is inexcusable...really??!!..I've seen better service from street vendors.

Cody · November 2014

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Quick update! We currently are running the resurrection only in the FC radius we mentioned a while back through the design and testing rings. We're also looking at adding global cooldowns to the respawning at an FC (meaning if you respawn at an FC you can't personally respawn at another for "X" period of time) and reducing the size of the radius.

Again, this is all getting it's testing done internally and running through various alterations and will continue to do so before it's posted live/PTS.

YES. YES.YES. YES YES YES YES YES.

Cody · November 2014

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Cooldowns we're talking about range between 2-5 minutes (basically runtime/ridetime back to a fight from a nearby keep or keeps).

For Radius we're still toying with this too but it may turn out to be quite dramatic...such as the size of a keep for example. We'll see how it goes internally with the tech testing and gameplay testing.

We'll also be looking at the cost of them again.

also be sure players DO NOT spawn with full resources. This, combined with the spawn time, would almost make it impossible to quickely form up a dreaded lagblob. It would also make death have a dramatic impact, and force players out of the kamakaze bomb squad habit, and more into the tactical PvP playstyle we all bought the game for in the first place.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

response times as opposed to siege times are too different now..takes a matter of a few minutes to siege a keep while it takes atleast 5 mins to travel between keeps.

That's because there shouldn't be a "response" time.

The playerbase has taken the bad habit of playing at only one or two point because they used to be able to teleport back and forth easily trough bloodporting.
Even if they reintroduce FCs, it will be imposible to bloodport so the "response time" will be the same.

We just have to learn how to defend teritory by spreading out. if you're already pushing a "lane" then it cuts down the response time to zero.

Tintinabula wrote: »

No FCS and depending strictly on Soul gems makes any prolonged siege impossible.Once you die if friends aren't around to soul gem rezz you, you're ignored.

That's probably an issue of carrots and elitism.

If it were advantageous for everyone to revive as much as possible then no dead body would stay dead.
An easy way to have an AP/gold sink would be to give a decent amount of Xp for reviving an ally. People would do it whenever they can because it would be equivalent to buy champion points.
Especially since xp is now tracked for when they will introduce the system.

Tintinabula wrote: »

Regardless ZOS never intended for FCs to be removed permanently. The fact they took them out so abruptly for NA and allowed EU to horde is inexcusable...really??!!..I've seen better service from street vendors.

I think they tried to do some split testing.
Which is, to have two different impelmentation and serve it at the same time to analyse the response of both solutions.

But I do agree that it was a bad idea. it would have been far better to remove FCs alltogether and reimburse the AP.
I wish they would do that now.

Mauz · November 2014

Cody wrote: »

would almost make it impossible to quickely form up a dreaded lagblob. It would also make death have a dramatic impact, and force players out of the kamakaze bomb squad habit, and more into the tactical PvP playstyle we all bought the game for in the first place.

Bomb squads are a separate problem and have nothing to do with FC. They easily can place one player in the background so that they can respawn quickly without FC. You will have this as long as AoE abilities, which bring huge load on the servers and are that strong, stackable and cheap in usage that everything in your way dies and you can spam it over and over again.

Removing AoE caps is the pro gamer solution. But that wont help because trains arent aiming for fair and challenging fights. 99% of the time I saw them they farmed random players and as soon they met a comparable group the server crashed anyway.

Reduce the AoE dmg massively and increase the cost so that its impossible to spam it. That would solve at least the issue with AoE trains.

Not an insult to the big organized guilds but lag free 100+ vs 100+ you will only achieve with small groups or random ppl. As soon as big groups start concentrated actions the produced server load which will result in any kind of feedback lag. You dont believe it? Just place your butt between the most popular zerging areas and observe. As soon as a big organized group arrives it begins to lag. Even if its not a bomb squad. Bomb squads are just the worst form of lag producers. Cant imagine its possible to avoid this. The only question is how to make it less bad than it is now.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · November 2014

Indeed, the FCs and stacking groups are two different issues.
It could be argued that the removal of the FCs made the stacking even more prevalent as survivability is more important now than before.

However, removing the target cap is the next step towards a lag free Cyrodill.
It reduces the spam by making people not survive forever spamming heals and aoes. It also indirectly nerf aoes since players now spread out and only 2 to 3 targets would be hit with the incovenience of having to aim. Individual abilities wouldn't need to be nerfed.
Under those cirumstances, single target instant cast would be preferable for most players.

And I disagree that it is a "pro gamer" solution. because even against non organized forces, the target cap removal would be of great help.
As of now, "organized" groups can just roll through larger forces by just spamming pbaoes non stop and eating targets one at a time.

But anyone can use aoe abilities against such an easy target, the issue is that currently, those aoes do nothing to them so unorganized forces don't do damage and get chewed trough.
Without caps, they would do damage and stacking would not be a viable option.
Once the fights are spread out, the spaming get's reduced.

There will always be some form of lag in very large fights, however if launch and beta are any indication, the game can handle "normal" fights fairly well.

What has changed since then is mainly player behavior since the cap got revealed. Some of the lighting changes and patches had bad effects too, but the lag really started with the reveal.

ensignedb16_ESO · November 2014

Very happy with the update from devs on this (compromising removal of FCs). Curious to see how it turns out, at any rate, it cannot possibly make the state of PvP any worse right now, it can only make it better tbh.

One thing I miss the devs commenting on though, is the insanely overpowered bows that have been a fact since last patch - and actually, even since the patch before that. They went from very powered to waaay over the top and just being ridiculous. I've been laughing a bit when I die since last patch, but it's not because I find the recaps to be funny, just plain ridiculous, in that half angry way. No matter where I'm going or with who or how many (except zergs of course), I spend half my magicka purging heal debuffs these days. And I have a dedicated magicka build.

It can't possibly have been the devs intentions that classes without strong self buffs and/or heals (sorcs and NBs) are supposed to adjust so radically to one weapon being buffed, that they actually have to use two skill slots (purge and radiant magelight) to actually sustain. Specifically, it is of course the snipe skill that needs a powerful nerf. I ran with the bow many months ago, and it was a perfectly fine weapon back then. The skill had a cast time of 4 secs I think. Obviously, NOT a skill meant to be spammed (esp. not at point blank range, lol). Or so I thought anyway. Now however it's turned upside down.

Otherwise skilled players now pick up the bow just for spite, and start trolling small groups of players on their own, just to get some kills in, I guess. Or whatever. I have a hard time figuring out the logic behind this. I already heard that it was a change "meant for PvE", whatever that means, since the change obviously also applies to PvP. Duh. If this wasn't intended, the issue is different.

Since this also is just a weapon skill line it shouldn't be that controversial to roll back some of those buffs. Whatever people claim about PvE being better, PvP has been a total bore since last patch, and the action concentrates on a fully populated campaign to four places at the sime time, tops, with snipe always dealing the most damage. This offsets a lot of people who used to find PvP, especially small scale fighting, a blast. I can't shake the feeling that PvP died a bit with that cursed patch. FCs being compromised better solves this a long way though. So - snipe next. Please?

martinhpb16_ESO · November 2014

Akula wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Elendor wrote: »

Noooooo, don't bring those camps back... Don't want them, don't need them, can't even properly test without people going through their supplies yet, but already it's so much more exciting without them.

People aren't yet accustomed to a proper pvp where you don't die all the time and care about deaths, and have to choose paths to get to the fight, and can have a surprise along the way.
Give it more time, they'll stop whining, we're not playing The Elder Camps Online.

Wandered around for a couple of hours last night, hardly found any decent action. PvP guilds were announcing their movements, usually by the time I got there the action as done.

Only 2 decent fights I had were: one, against EP outside a keep about 10 v 10. Was a good fight but EP ultimately lost as even though they had a resource there was nowhere for them to rez. There were too many of us around their corpses for them to them to rez eachother. Great fight but soon over.

Other great fight was us against AD outside one of their keeps. We pretty much got wiped after a great fight, but someone planted an FC in a field and the fight continued.

You couldn't have a good hold on pvp strategies if you are wondering for hours with no action. Maybe you should spend some time learning (or at least just thinking about for one second and using a smidge of common sense) these common battle movement patterns, so you could be proactive instead of reactive.

You waded in and misread my post. I said "no decent action", not "no action".

Wow yup I have no common sense, I should spend more time thinking blah blah.

Ok I'll do that and study this ever so complex map, with its hard to figure dynamics for a few hours before I wade in, at least that way, as you suggest, I can be a proactive player like you.

p.s. can I get a cool guy hat like yours, the one with "Pro" written across it?

martinhpb16_ESO · November 2014

Nala_ wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Wandered around for a couple of hours last night, hardly found any decent action. PvP guilds were announcing their movements, usually by the time I got there the action as done.

this is most peoples experience with pvp now

Apparently its because we don't think, have no common sense and need to be proactive.

martinhpb16_ESO · November 2014

Vizier wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Elendor wrote: »

Noooooo, don't bring those camps back... Don't want them, don't need them, can't even properly test without people going through their supplies yet, but already it's so much more exciting without them.

People aren't yet accustomed to a proper pvp where you don't die all the time and care about deaths, and have to choose paths to get to the fight, and can have a surprise along the way.
Give it more time, they'll stop whining, we're not playing The Elder Camps Online.

Wandered around for a couple of hours last night, hardly found any decent action. PvP guilds were announcing their movements, usually by the time I got there the action as done.

Only 2 decent fights I had were: one, against EP outside a keep about 10 v 10. Was a good fight but EP ultimately lost as even though they had a resource there was nowhere for them to rez. There were too many of us around their corpses for them to them to rez eachother. Great fight but soon over.

Other great fight was us against AD outside one of their keeps. We pretty much got wiped after a great fight, but someone planted an FC in a field and the fight continued.

You are not doing it right. It may be your not on at a good time and you didn't mention what campaign your playing. All I know is Thornblade NA has been jam packed with people and there are fights of sizes going on for hours on end. If your are not getting fights you are simply not doing it right.

Well I tried standing in the same spot for hours waving my hands in the air. I did see a butterfly but couldn't kill it. Please help what am I doing wrong?

update, last few nights there have been some pretty good fights, but always in the same areas, with little keep changing. Seems to be picking up but the fights have been pretty much back and forth. Still less going on on the overall map compared to when we had FC.

martinhpb16_ESO · November 2014

Rylana wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

wow....here's your nickel..you killed me..twice.."hoorah". If you weren't so intent on attacking me personally in this strange attempt to call me out by name on the forums by taking a comment that I made about someone else calling FCs a crutch ,you might see that I am NOT one of those people that thinks anyone with a lower ava rank than me don't exist.

I'm a middle aged home maker who plays with my BF (no one else..no other huge groups of..what was it?..4 others?) Nope, just us.

You attacked me on these forums by calling me out by name which I believe is against TOS..keep that in mind.(that I DO care about)...and by all means pat yourself on the back for killing me..(It's not some great feat..I die all the time )

I'll not even try to defend my KDR or Kill streaks to you..cause..you have obviously made up your mind about who I am already.

Enjoy your game and have a great life.

Then dont talk down to people about their crutches and or playstyle like youre better than them, nor should you bag on people that earned emperor legitimately despite not being at the same ava rank as you.

Theres a lot of things youve said on these forums that got my attention, not just some random out of the blue thing.

It was cemented when you started throwing an epic fit about camps, it became completely obvious what kind of player you are, the one I hate the most, the one that hides behind everyone else and talks massive trash, all the while having some super high sense of self entitlement about their accomplishments, however meager they may be.

Reap what you sow, at least I am up front about who I am.

Yeh go for it guy that sure told em.

Francescolg · November 2014

roechacca wrote: »

Camps aren't the problem . Soon they'll all be gone . Server lag is what's really destroying pvp . (And yes Devs , I turned it off and on again)

Especially people who suffer more crashes than the average fanboy suffer when they come back, 5 min after their crash, without a forward-camp, so that they can immediately stick up again to their group, after lags and crashes ruined every better fight experience.
Now, this possibility has gone, punishing many sorts of players: nuubs, low-riders, duelists, outsiders and crash-dummies, all those will think twice if the hour-long ride is worth their 12-15 monthly bucks..
Crashes are occuring every 10-30 minutes for many players, combined with a neverending loading screen and death-after-relog. Especially those suffer thanks to this mindless patch..

But is not just about players who suffer regularly from crashes. Also the RL-matters-for-me guy, who needs to go afk now and then, suffers. It is him who even suffers, not beeing able to stick up to a grou of (e.g.) powergamers who just leave their pc 5 minutes every 3 hours..

IF no forward camps, plase introduce a /follow, or /stick command for players who need to go afk. Please do so!

Spangla · November 2014

Heres my opinion.

Quite simple really.

More riding = bad

Less fighting = bad

Removing FC therefore = bad

Spangla · November 2014

Quick easy fix.

Bring FC back BUT - You can now only spawn at the camp if you died within the radius of the FC.

Would stop you popping up all over the map and would also stop ridiculous quick every1 suicide on the farm mechanic

Spangla · November 2014

Please read the above ^^^^^ I really can't see a problem with this as it would seem to please all parties.

Tintinabula · November 2014

Response time always matters in relation to getting to the keep to reinforce your comrades(AKA if they're dead at the keep with no FCs; getting to the keep is pointless however if they have FCs at the keep the time it takes me to get there isn't a huge variable). I never bloodgated before FCs were snatched away.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

Response time always matters in relation to getting to the keep to reinforce your comrades(AKA if they're dead at the keep with no FCs; getting to the keep is pointless however if they have FCs at the keep the time it takes me to get there isn't a huge variable). I never bloodgated before FCs were snatched away.

Hah, I thought you were talking about response time after noticing an attack.
In that case, that's true, defense time after death would be longer.

However, where I was getting at is that if you're already on the front, then your response time is zero. You either intercept or are the cause of the siege.

But the added response time after death is the whole point of removing FCs. When you kill a player, that is one less enemy to worry about.
It creates an attrition war.
And if you remember, often, the fight could last a very long time even after the defensive FCs went out while the offensive ones kept churning out attackers. So as a defender, you were at a disadvantage, but now, you're on equal footing.

It is also a positive that keeps change hands less often.
It gives more meaning to a capture and more permanence to the map.
If you leave at night and log back in the morning or the next evening, the map still looks like what you have worked to achieve.
Maybe you'll get a bad surprise, or a good one, but the world still shows traces of what you did.

Spangla · November 2014

This game is awesome but it is significantly less awesome without camps imo. After tonights lag fest im sick of riding because of lag deaths.

Had a duel with someone tonight, cyrodil loading screen in the middle of the fight! dead when it loads back up and a fun filled crappy horse ride for my punishment.

Varicite · November 2014

Spangla wrote: »

This game is awesome but it is significantly less awesome without camps imo. After tonights lag fest im sick of riding because of lag deaths.

Had a duel with someone tonight, cyrodil loading screen in the middle of the fight! dead when it loads back up and a fun filled crappy horse ride for my punishment.

Sounds like a problem w/ lag, not camps.

kijima · November 2014

PvP isn't destroyed.

Had a blast the other night with guildies. We were at a Red occupied Brindle, smashing down the walls, we then got flanked by Blues who continued to siege after they wiped us, or so they thought...

After some crafty stealth rezzing of our AD brethren, we all got together and patiently watched in stealth as the blues sieged down the rest of the outer and then inner, then waited for them to jump onto the flags inside the keep.

At that point we all rushed in from stealth and wiped them all.

PvP is what you make of it.

Tintinabula · November 2014

Whats funny to me are these testimonials to the great time we had "a few nights ago'..."the other night".."last week" etc.
I remember having great battles every hour on the hour. Where did they go?

kijima · November 2014

I'm in Australia, it was around 2 or 3pm Eastern Standard Time yesterday, I had the day off of work as I have the man flu, so I could be a little fuzzy of the exact time, but around 2-3pm my time.

I usually say last or the other night, as it's night for you guys being that the majority of the people I play with are American and not Australian.

Right now, it's 6:54pm in New York, but it's Wednesday 10:54am here.

Behold, I'm from the future!

Edit: typos and stuff

themizario · November 2014

kijima wrote: »

I'm in Australia, it was around 2 or 3pm Eastern Standard Time yesterday, I had the day off of work as I have the man flu, so I could be a little fuzzy of the exact time, but around 2-3pm my time.

I usually say last or the other night, as it's night for you guys being that the majority of the people I play with are American and not Australian.

Right now, it's 6:54pm in New York, but it's Wednesday 10:54am here.

Behold, I'm from the future!

Edit: typos and stuff

So you're the ***** that goes around night capping stuff!

Hahaha jk

Columba · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

Whats funny to me are these testimonials to the great time we had "a few nights ago'..."the other night".."last week" etc.
I remember having great battles every hour on the hour. Where did they go?

happening more often now than they were because the zergling pulsars have been culled - thanks in no small part to fewer blood ports.

kijima · November 2014

themizario wrote: »

So you're the ***** that goes around night capping stuff!

Hahaha jk

Yeah, I'm taking your stuff while drinking this apparently...

Just ask Dshotz for validation, that would be 1,000 kinds of wrong.

purgation · November 2014

I sometimes wonder if some of these posters are playing the same game I am.

The game has gotten more zergy, not less. Less strategic, not more. And Thornblade (you know, the one active campaign?) is capped much less often... which I am going out on a limb to say might be evidence fewer people are playing since the patch.

FCs were a dumb mechanic, but as OP said, they were removed without sufficient thought or changes to compensate. And yeah, I predicted on these forums that the game would turn into a static trench warfare tug-of-war... and guess what... another battle for Sejanus!

Dazin93 · November 2014

The reason you see varied responses is due to hardcore players and casual gamers having different perspectives because they don't share the same game experience.

Hardcore players are mostly advocates of the removal of FC's as they almost always win battles of attrition due to usually being grouped, a better understanding of game mechanics and how to manipulate them, and the team synergies that come with organized pvp. They also don't have difficulties finding battles because they usually create them, ganking/bow spam is negligible as they are protected by their group, and now they can take keeps with almost no resistance. Organized groups are even more dominant and the hardcore player thrives on dominating.

The casual pvp player however, just wants to log and enjoy fighting an hour or two, feel that they are contributing, and gain some sense of satisfaction from player kills, ap gains, or character advancement. Unfortunately, very little in Cryodiil supports casual play or lends to any feelings of satisfaction.

When you also consider the lag and lack of viable builds/skills it's small wonder that the pvp population is decreasing. ESO promised RvR warfare with epic battles and it has been anything but due to the inadequacy of their servers and lack of commitment to the pvp player base.

Hardcore players may like pvp as it is, minus the lag, but it's the casual players that sustain a game long after the hardcore ones rush off to the next best thing.

Spangla · November 2014

Unfortunately Dazin a few of the names posting against FC removal in this thread are as hardcore as they come.

ZOS you must realise you are trashing PVP - The way PVP goes now is you have the numbers and chase or you don't have the numbers and you run = zzz boring

Or you gank.

Personally I find the dynamic both laggier and more frustrating than before.

Im getting bored by this change and there are only so many resources I can solo before i lose interest and cancel.

This game genuinely went from my favourite game of all time to a Meh average game overnight with 1.5 patch

ensignedb16_ESO · November 2014

"Hardcore players", lol. I always wondered who they were. I think the demarcation is rather "more or less patient" or "more or less keen on some hot late night horse sim". Some are for and some are against. It seems to me, that a lot of the players wanting this change, are really talking about "immersion". They just don't want to say it out loud, cus we all know it gets you boo'ed. Like, you wouldn't be able to bloodport IRL, so this sort of is a gamebreaker for some. (As if the prospect of "negating magic" or suddenly vanishing into thin air for two full seconds had a shred of reality in their concepts, but I guess no one had an issue with that huh.)

Seems to me that most players struggle hard to find a middle ground, because many of us were actually, genuinely enjoying the game before 1.5, and we WANT to continue enjoying it. But it is now getting a bit tiresome. I dont know if this was part illusion or whatnot, but it suddenly dawned on me yesterday riding between alessia and sej - that OK, some things in this PvP have changed. But most things stayed exactly the same.

Players now stick close to each other in steady, uninterrupted streams between the biggest keeps, only to be sure they dont die yet again to some *** archer on the way. I mean come on. In a real war, would this be a feasible strategy? A chicken run like this would be begging for slaughter. But the sad truth is, the chicken run even wins. If they know how to stack up. And seriously, honestly, most people understand this now. The cap that makes this possible should also be removed for this change to make more sense.

So please, all you hardcore players who are talking about this great new PvP of yours. What exactly did change? The zergs are fewer, but bigger. The few battles that play out, at nearly all times, are zergs vs zergs. There are very, very, very few groups of +/- ten people running around now, if any at all. They will simply be squashed by the bigger numbers, not by lack of skill or "lack of eazy nub spawn point lel". An upside is that the map doesn't switch pressure points like some color wheel, yes things take longer time. But that also includes the 3-hour long stalemates that are created now, and was not there before, and guess who it includes. One thing that FCs obviously did, was to distribute the action all over the map, creating a lot more unpredictable moves. I just sit around and yawn now. How long has it been since somebody ninja took Blackboot or Bloodmayne out of purely strategic measures? Thats right it hasnt' happened since patch. Because its not a usable strategy anymore. All the possibilites of diverting attention, which should be a possibility, are gone with the FCs, there aren't any other. And what happens if you just stubbornly try to wander off once in a while alone, like you used to, just to test some stuff on a few random guys out there? 1 min on horseback, PEW PEW PEW - dead.

In my opinion they could just shrink the map to 1/5 of its size. This would probably, but just for a bit, solve some lag issues (not bad network code tho, unfortunately). There is simply no need for all this barren land where nothing happens anymore.