PvP Destroyed

Dreyloch · November 2014

WebBull wrote: »

I never said that FC's should stay. I said the decision with lack of forethought and planing to offset the negatives was a terrible business decision.

Ok, so explain to us the negatives? Explain how taking a keep in prime time was NOT hampered by the 2398`3982`598 zerlings on the flag lagging everyone the F out? Explain how certain keeps were all but impossible to take because there was no end to the mulititude of ppl respawning to defend it? Explain to us why your horse is starving, because if you say it's not fast enough...your not feeding it. (ok, that's probably not true, but but I'm taking a shot at it lol)

Let's look at an even worse alternative. ZoS could have takin' all remaining camps from all inventories, and made us respawn at our respective gates from now on. Otherwise, I think if your going to try and take a keep, you better darn well insure you have enough people to do it. This is a social multiplayer game. Talk to people and get your faction rallied up!

k2blader · November 2014

Dreyloch wrote: »

Otherwise, I think if your going to try and take a keep, you better darn well insure you have enough people to do it. This is a social multiplayer game. Talk to people and get your faction rallied up!

And if you don't have enough, enjoy Equestrian Online and the amazing fun that is resource capping.

BTW there are still zergs and ridiculous flag-lag post-FCs.

Tintinabula · November 2014

Nala_ wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Wandered around for a couple of hours last night, hardly found any decent action. PvP guilds were announcing their movements, usually by the time I got there the action as done.

this is most peoples experience with pvp now

This is my experience and countless others who sit atop keep walls now with me waiting for the fight to happen relatively close.

Columba · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

Nala_ wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Wandered around for a couple of hours last night, hardly found any decent action. PvP guilds were announcing their movements, usually by the time I got there the action as done.

this is most peoples experience with pvp now

This is my experience and countless others who sit atop keep walls now with me waiting for the fight to happen relatively close.

That's your problem right there. You wait for fights to come to you. Try creating fights.

Aoe_Barbecue · November 2014

I have no idea what these "no pvp" people are talking about. There is always a fight in the Sejanus-Alessia corridor. There is always a fight in the Bleakers-Chalman corridor. There are usually fights in the Ash-Brindle-Roebeck pizza. When someone backcaps a home keep, there are fights. When one or two factions is pushing deep into another faction, there are fights. When scroll gates are opened, there are fights. When there is an emperor capture attempt, there are fights. When there is a final emperor keep defense there are fights. And smart gankers/small groups will realize there will be traveling groups and singles during these fights.

I have been at no shortage of fights. My only criticism are people play like dey scurred now that they have to ride their horse for a minute after dying.

Vizier · November 2014

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Elendor wrote: »

Noooooo, don't bring those camps back... Don't want them, don't need them, can't even properly test without people going through their supplies yet, but already it's so much more exciting without them.

People aren't yet accustomed to a proper pvp where you don't die all the time and care about deaths, and have to choose paths to get to the fight, and can have a surprise along the way.
Give it more time, they'll stop whining, we're not playing The Elder Camps Online.

Wandered around for a couple of hours last night, hardly found any decent action. PvP guilds were announcing their movements, usually by the time I got there the action as done.

Only 2 decent fights I had were: one, against EP outside a keep about 10 v 10. Was a good fight but EP ultimately lost as even though they had a resource there was nowhere for them to rez. There were too many of us around their corpses for them to them to rez eachother. Great fight but soon over.

Other great fight was us against AD outside one of their keeps. We pretty much got wiped after a great fight, but someone planted an FC in a field and the fight continued.

You are not doing it right. It may be your not on at a good time and you didn't mention what campaign your playing. All I know is Thornblade NA has been jam packed with people and there are fights of sizes going on for hours on end. If your are not getting fights you are simply not doing it right.

serenenightmare · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

Nala_ wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Wandered around for a couple of hours last night, hardly found any decent action. PvP guilds were announcing their movements, usually by the time I got there the action as done.

this is most peoples experience with pvp now

This is my experience and countless others who sit atop keep walls now with me waiting for the fight to happen relatively close.

I do not understand why people wait at keeps. That has to be the most boring thing I've ever heard. That is entirely your fault if you can't find action.

Why are people so scared to ride a horse for 30 seconds? I guess some just can't play pvp without a FC crutch to fall back on.

Sublime · November 2014

I like sieging fights more than those on the open field.

c0rp · November 2014

Myrdrett wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Quick update! We currently are running the resurrection only in the FC radius we mentioned a while back through the design and testing rings. We're also looking at adding global cooldowns to the respawning at an FC (meaning if you respawn at an FC you can't personally respawn at another for "X" period of time) and reducing the size of the radius.

Again, this is all getting it's testing done internally and running through various alterations and will continue to do so before it's posted live/PTS.

The removal of the FC brought me back to the game.
If the FC come back - I cancel my subscribtion again.

Death must be a punishment. I hate battles with endless waves of respawn. Thats ridiculous.

Just my opinion.

When they come back, and if as Wheeler describes...they will be NOTHING like the FWCs that you AND I have grown to hate. They will actually have balance when they come back, and cost A LOT more I would assume as well.

GorraShatan · November 2014

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Cooldowns we're talking about range between 2-5 minutes (basically runtime/ridetime back to a fight from a nearby keep or keeps).

For Radius we're still toying with this too but it may turn out to be quite dramatic...such as the size of a keep for example. We'll see how it goes internally with the tech testing and gameplay testing.

We'll also be looking at the cost of them again.

I hope it ends up closer to 5 minutes than 2.

I would hope the camp radius would at least be enough to let an attacker rez at a resource they hold after dying at the keep though,

Tintinabula · November 2014

just like some people cant play without a group..they need that crutch.

Jaerlach · November 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Quick update! We currently are running the resurrection only in the FC radius we mentioned a while back through the design and testing rings. We're also looking at adding global cooldowns to the respawning at an FC (meaning if you respawn at an FC you can't personally respawn at another for "X" period of time) and reducing the size of the radius.
...

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Cooldowns we're talking about range between 2-5 minutes (basically runtime/ridetime back to a fight from a nearby keep or keeps).
...

So there will be no bloodporting, and basically one "free death" in range of the camp before having to face the death penalty.

Sounds reasonable.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler please do favour the longer potential durations when deciding upon a time for cooldowns. Alternatively, a cooldown that increases even higher with rapid subsequent deaths would maintain a lot of appeal.
If players are going to be lying on the ground waiting for a timer before ressing at camp, the duration would be best set so as to make the choice of instead riding back and risking combat to be potentially preferable to waiting out the timer at least some of the time.
Camps are fine when utilized reasonably, but Cyrodiil benefits by having action between hotspots.

Please consider a cooldown that gets longer with higher veteran rank, so that the shorter cooldown can benefit characters who aren't VR14 and are consequently squishier.

It would be pretty ok if the lv 40s or VR2s had better res situations - they also have slower horses, to boot. It would make it more forgiving to play a lowbie in a real campaign.

JamilaRaj · November 2014

Dreyloch wrote: »

Let's look at an even worse alternative. ZoS could have takin' all remaining camps from all inventories, and made us respawn at our respective gates from now on.

Actually respawn at gates is a good idea, because that would remove blood porting to far away cut off keeps.

Varicite · November 2014

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Dreyloch wrote: »

Let's look at an even worse alternative. ZoS could have takin' all remaining camps from all inventories, and made us respawn at our respective gates from now on.

Actually respawn at gates is a good idea, because that would remove blood porting to far away cut off keeps.

No, you'd just bloodport to your home keeps for defense instead.

WRX · November 2014

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Quick update! We currently are running the resurrection only in the FC radius we mentioned a while back through the design and testing rings. We're also looking at adding global cooldowns to the respawning at an FC (meaning if you respawn at an FC you can't personally respawn at another for "X" period of time) and reducing the size of the radius.

Again, this is all getting it's testing done internally and running through various alterations and will continue to do so before it's posted live/PTS.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Cooldowns we're talking about range between 2-5 minutes (basically runtime/ridetime back to a fight from a nearby keep or keeps).

For Radius we're still toying with this too but it may turn out to be quite dramatic...such as the size of a keep for example. We'll see how it goes internally with the tech testing and gameplay testing.

We'll also be looking at the cost of them again.

I find these potential changes to be very exciting. A happy balance between mindless zerging and situational gameplay. Good groups can take a keep in two minutes, yet alone burn the camp that the other factions have to spawn out of. If you can't defend the camp, courtyard, and/or inner you will most likely lose the keep. I really hope ZOS finds a way to make this happen.

No forward camps has benefited my guild in many ways, but it is still a less exciting and enjoyable PvP experience. I find some of the other threads that are pro-FC's to be laughable because of the cherry picking of "facts", and personally I feel this is the change myself and a large majority of other players have been looking for.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · November 2014

I'm against the return of FCs under any form.
They are unnecesary and wasting the great landscape by never fighting in it.

That said, and just in case they do make a comeback, cooldowns are an inadequate solution.
Most players that know what they are doing can last longer than 10 minutes. A cooldown is just a barrier of entry for noobs and giving an advantage to players that don't need it.

An interesting solution would be to implement a "buyback" type of feature.
The higher level you are, both in vr/champion and in pvp rank, the more ap you need to pay.
Add in an increased cost after respawning once that reset down over time and you have a proper attrition tool in the game and a decent ap sink.

But again, forward camps are NOT needed.
We have the transitus network and rapid maneuver. Bypassing the landscape in such a beatifuly crafted world is a sin.

krim · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

just like some people cant play without a group..they need that crutch.

lol.....................

Animus0724 · November 2014

I would have to disagree, those camps were a real game breaker.

Rylana · November 2014

krim wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

just like some people cant play without a group..they need that crutch.

lol.....................

I quite agree with this "lol"

The only time I have ever encountered tintin was when she was running with about five reds backing her up. Three vice members vs six reds and we mopped the floor with them.

So its pretty funny when I hear claims of crutches from people that are most definitely not solo/small group material.

Tintinabula · November 2014

Rylana wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

just like some people cant play without a group..they need that crutch.

lol.....................

I quite agree with this "lol"

The only time I have ever encountered tintin was when she was running with about five reds backing her up. Three vice members vs six reds and we mopped the floor with them.

So its pretty funny when I hear claims of crutches from people that are most definitely not solo/small group material.

I don't even know who you are. Never seen you in game..and really don't care that much.

Rylana · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

just like some people cant play without a group..they need that crutch.

lol.....................

I quite agree with this "lol"

The only time I have ever encountered tintin was when she was running with about five reds backing her up. Three vice members vs six reds and we mopped the floor with them.

So its pretty funny when I hear claims of crutches from people that are most definitely not solo/small group material.

I don't even know who you are. Never seen you in game..and really don't care that much.

Of course you havent, because you dont play now that you cant bloodport across the map to an easy defense with 60 other reds stacked inside of a keep dropping oil and aoe spam everywhere.

Ive seen you exactly twice outside of a keep. Both times I killed you. One of those times I actually killed you solo with 2 other reds backing you.

But of course you dont know who I am because youre one of those people that thinks anyone with a lower ava rank than you dont exist.

Tintinabula · November 2014

wow....here's your nickel..you killed me..twice.."hoorah". If you weren't so intent on attacking me personally in this strange attempt to call me out by name on the forums by taking a comment that I made about someone else calling FCs a crutch ,you might see that I am NOT one of those people that thinks anyone with a lower ava rank than me don't exist.

I'm a middle aged home maker who plays with my BF (no one else..no other huge groups of..what was it?..4 others?) Nope, just us.

You attacked me on these forums by calling me out by name which I believe is against TOS..keep that in mind.(that I DO care about)...and by all means pat yourself on the back for killing me..(It's not some great feat..I die all the time

)

I'll not even try to defend my KDR or Kill streaks to you..cause..you have obviously made up your mind about who I am already.

Enjoy your game and have a great life.

Rylana · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

wow....here's your nickel..you killed me..twice.."hoorah". If you weren't so intent on attacking me personally in this strange attempt to call me out by name on the forums by taking a comment that I made about someone else calling FCs a crutch ,you might see that I am NOT one of those people that thinks anyone with a lower ava rank than me don't exist.

I'm a middle aged home maker who plays with my BF (no one else..no other huge groups of..what was it?..4 others?) Nope, just us.

You attacked me on these forums by calling me out by name which I believe is against TOS..keep that in mind.(that I DO care about)...and by all means pat yourself on the back for killing me..(It's not some great feat..I die all the time )

I'll not even try to defend my KDR or Kill streaks to you..cause..you have obviously made up your mind about who I am already.

Enjoy your game and have a great life.

Then dont talk down to people about their crutches and or playstyle like youre better than them, nor should you bag on people that earned emperor legitimately despite not being at the same ava rank as you.

Theres a lot of things youve said on these forums that got my attention, not just some random out of the blue thing.

It was cemented when you started throwing an epic fit about camps, it became completely obvious what kind of player you are, the one I hate the most, the one that hides behind everyone else and talks massive trash, all the while having some super high sense of self entitlement about their accomplishments, however meager they may be.

Reap what you sow, at least I am up front about who I am.

MrGhosty · November 2014

I have never had as much fun in PvP as I do now. I will grant that I only tend to PvP during primetime so I cannot speak to off peak hours but the combat has been just as intense and hectic as it was with the FCs with a difference being smaller groups can make an impact.

It is now strategically "worth it" to ride to a keep that is no longer being defended somewhere along the enemies transitus line and flag that keep via siege in order to sever the line. Doing so only requires a small group but allows larger forces elsewhere to fight more effectively by cutting off enemy reinforcements.

Earlier tonite on Thorn we also had a great fight at Arrius in the field behind the mine, people were hiding in rocks and there were pockets of resistance cropping up all around, I honestly had forgotten many of these locations existed. I have had to change my play style, and even modify my armor setup to suit that play style but I couldn't be happier.

I will concede there are some negatives to the forward camps being removed, but I consider those growing pains as people were accustomed to a particular style of play and in order to maintain their playstyle they will do whatever they can and this can lead to some dull fights. As we go longer and longer without FCs I am seeing things start to change, so it's really just a matter of getting to the point that's no longer the way people seek to play.

That said, the one true enemy that can actually kill PvP isn't lack of FCs, it's the horrible server performance. I'm not a tech guy so I have no idea how it could be helped, but the performance issues have been a pox on this aspect of the game for a long while now.

rgreenwalt1b14_ESO · November 2014

FC's wont be an issue at all if they can't fix the lag in this game. Especially in PvP. When you ride from one keep to defend another and can't get in the lagged out door, not only did you waste your time riding there, but you can't do anything to help once you get there. At least the queues aren't as long. Hmmm....wonder what that means? I checked my subscription status today and was pissed that I have two more months left.

Varicite · November 2014

rgreenwalt1b14_ESO wrote: »

FC's wont be an issue at all if they can't fix the lag in this game. Especially in PvP. When you ride from one keep to defend another and can't get in the lagged out door, not only did you waste your time riding there, but you can't do anything to help once you get there. At least the queues aren't as long. Hmmm....wonder what that means? I checked my subscription status today and was pissed that I have two more months left.

It's not as though this wasn't the case w/ FCs anyway, though.

Francescolg · November 2014

Two suggestions:
- Make a poll for players and let them decide on forward camps, or
- Make two PvP servers: one with forward camps and one without, end of the discussion!!!

I bet that players will choose the server with the forward camps for the same reason that players tend to choose the most populated servers, or the bigger guilds.
The fact that people like overcrowded servers/spaces is not because they search a lot of small scale fights right out of the sticks (keeps/outposts). It is because they want zerg, they want largest scale fights, tbc.. They do not want to have to search for fights, They do not want small interesting fights (they'll get them anyway). They want to get offered both possibilities, forward camps OR outside-fights. Right now, all gamers are forced to follow the conception of a minority of gamers (who lead to this catastrophic decision to revert FCs)!

Why do you first introduce forward camps and than remove them again?
These "back and forth"-games are a prove of your indecisiveness..., dear game-developers. You are acting like your players: yesterday I had to ride back-and-forth for hours, thanks to you!

IMO, you simply prank your customers! I'm sorry but that is how it feels like for me and some of my comrads! .

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · November 2014

@Francescolg‌
You operate under the assumption that players know what they want, which is of course wrong. Many games have been driven to the ground through the same principles you've illustrated in your comment.

First off, this is game design, not a democracy. Polls are irrelevant and the best decision must be implemented rather than the popular one.
(which, anyway, is by a large margin removing the camps, if we are to believe the few polls on these forums)

Secondly, offering alternate rulesets is all fine and dandy when you have a strong playerbase. At this point, ESO cannot afford to dilute its playerbase even more. There are already, arguably, too many campaigns.

Finally, players that feel like they enjoy forward camps or only want large fights non stop will get burned out and not know why.
One of the most similar games out there is Planetside 2, and it followed a discourse similar to yours. Sure, they have the most massive FPS battles in the industry on a consistent basis, but they went from growing numbers to dwidling numbers and an incredible turn over. They even managed to aleniate they most devoted "opinion leaders". While most part of the game was improved and new content added on a regular basis, the core elements like logistics and strategy were removed.
If it weren't for being free to play, it wouldn't be alive anymore.

You need variety and surprises, you need depth and meaningful gameplay and you need to build an engaging experience in order to keep the long term appeal of your game.
Especially games that rely so much on coordination. If the game is shallow, you won't keep those that would organize communities interested longer than the first month.

Francescolg · November 2014

It are the same "forces" that drive players to chose just one overcrowded server although they are given several [empty] alternatives, that indicate that people want more and easier travelling without playing a horse-simulator game. Masses of players and 24/h-day pvp are the biggest magnets in the PvP-industry - not the pro anti-forward camps arguments I've read sparsed through this 8 pages!

Sure, you could also distribute gamers evenly through all pvp servers for the purpose of "more quality pvp" but is that the case? Do they want to do so? No! At least most players seem to prefer the overcrowded pvp-server even though they do not stop complaining about lags. Why not letting them chose one server with camps and one without!?..

Removing the forward camps will not change anything in terms of how people will zerg. They will continue to stuck to each other even more and therefore the quality of pvp will suffer because FC-camps allowed a much higher de-centralization in fights, especially for individual-casual players.

Beside that and that is the strongest point vs. forward camps, as Abraxus has already stated, less-crowded servers are suffering much more from camp removal that full crowded servers. First they introduce additional, less-crowded, servers, than they remove the FCs. I don't understand that at all.. It seems many developers are not thinking so much about the consequences of such severe "back-and-forth games". I feel like beeing on a neverending test parcours of a game most of my friends already have left..

Roechacca · November 2014

Camps aren't the problem . Soon they'll all be gone . Server lag is what's really destroying pvp . (And yes Devs , I turned it off and on again)