Ultimate inequality?

Nerouyn · November 2014

One of ESO's core design principles is supposed to be freedom to build your character however you like. But it looks like there's an obvious deviation from that in the way ultimates are handled.

Sorcerers have the passive power stone which reduces ultimate costs by 15%.

Templars have the passive restoring spirit which reduces ultimate costs (and magicka and stamina) by 4%.

Nightblades and dragonknights have no ultimate cost reducers.

Templars, nightblades and dragonknights have class passives which increase ultimate gain based on usage of class active abilities and nightblades have an ultimate morph which boosts ultimate gain from kills when equipped.

So by design it looks like in relation to ultimates sorcerers have the freedom to completely ignore class (active) abilities - should they want to - but relative to sorcerers other classes would be at a disadvantage doing the same.

Is that right or have I missed something?

Jacques Berge · November 2014

.... What sort of discussion are you starting here? Are you saying that sorcs don't get benefits from their own ultimates?... Hmm lets take a look... Storm atronach is great for soloing PVE, overload gives you an extra skill bar to slot, conjured ward, armor skills, surge, execute let alone maintain high dps while recharging mana... And negate... The only thing in the game that overpowers an ultimate... What ultimate are you using in place of these?

david.haypreub18_ESO · November 2014

The problem for Templars is that their ultimates are terrible. While players rightly fear a well-placed Negate, a timely Veil of Blades or basically any Standard, no one is really fearing the Templar ultimates, and for good reason. They just cost too much or do too little.

Nerouyn · November 2014

Jacques Berge wrote: »

.... What sort of discussion are you starting here?

Did you read the OP, or just read the title and jump in with a response?

Jacques Berge wrote: »

Are you saying that sorcs don't get benefits from their own ultimates?

No.

It's crystal clear in the OP.

I'm saying in the circumstance where a player chooses to ignore their class abilities - which the developers have promoted as a valid choice - sorcerers appear to be quantifiably 11-15% better off than other classes in relation to ultimates.

Imryll · November 2014

Because it makes sense to take one facet of class structure out of context--and there is no value in being able to control the rate at which you gain ultimate ...

Nerouyn · November 2014

Imryll wrote: »

Because it makes sense to take one facet of class structure out of context...

It is perfectly in context.

Imryll wrote: »

...and there is no value in being able to control the rate at which you gain ultimate ...

I'm just going ahead and label that as patently untrue.

If it were true, why are there passives which boost the rate at which it is gained? And why do any players - pretty much everyone I'm guessing - use them?

Ultimates are by definition more powerful abilities whose use is limited by the ultimate resource. Being able to generate that resource more quickly is an obvious and undeniable advantage.

FYI I mostly play a sorc so I'm not some [insert other class name] trying to get sorc's downgraded. I think ignoring class abilities should be viable. In this one respect it seems like it's quantifiably 11-15% more viable for one class than others.

I posted it as a question to see if I'd missed something but it seems like I haven't.

guybrushtb16_ESO · November 2014

Nerouyn wrote: »

Jacques Berge wrote: »

.... What sort of discussion are you starting here?

Did you read the OP, or just read the title and jump in with a response?

Jacques Berge wrote: »

Are you saying that sorcs don't get benefits from their own ultimates?

No.

It's crystal clear in the OP.

I'm saying in the circumstance where a player chooses to ignore their class abilities - which the developers have promoted as a valid choice - sorcerers appear to be quantifiably 11-15% better off than other classes in relation to ultimates.

No, it's not very clear, and Imryll was absolutely correct in pointing out that you are taking things out of context. Yes, sorcerers get the cheapest ultimates, but DKs get a free tri-pot every time they use one and NBs get to build the more ultimate through death stroke. Templars get the short end of the stick as usual, but at least they have a healing ultimate, for all that it's worth.

What's more to the point is that classes simply get different perks in different areas. Taking one of these areas out it and saying "XXX is stronger then everybody else" based on only one of these areas doesn't really make sense, because they all come in a package anyway. Yes, sorcerers get the cheapest ultimates when they don't use theirs, but nightblades get +30% stamina regeneration and crit boni, DKs get boni to fire damage from everything etc., none of which are exactly mirrored in all other classes.

Imryll · November 2014

Nerouyn wrote: »

Imryll wrote: »

...and there is no value in being able to control the rate at which you gain ultimate ...

I'm just going ahead and label that as patently untrue.

If it were true, why are there passives which boost the rate at which it is gained? And why do any players - pretty much everyone I'm guessing - use them?

Sorry that my sarcasm was less than obvious to you--and thanks to @guybrushtb16_ESO for expanding on why it makes little sense to compare a single aspect of class structure.

Nerouyn · November 2014

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

No, it's not very clear, and Imryll was absolutely correct in pointing out that you are taking things out of context. Yes, sorcerers get the cheapest ultimates, but DKs get a free tri-pot every time they use one and NBs get to build the more ultimate through death stroke. Templars get the short end of the stick as usual, but at least they have a healing ultimate, for all that it's worth.

It seems I need to repeat myself because you missed it yet again.

I'm talking about circumstances in which players choose not to use any active class abilities. So you can see how most of your response is completely irrelevant, or as you prefer, out of context.

The DK health/magicka/stamina recovery on ultimate use passive is potentially relevant and possibly puts them on par with sorcs. But that would still leave NBs and temps behind.

FYI you do realise that there non-class ultimates right?

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Taking one of these areas out it and saying "XXX is stronger then everybody else" based on only one of these areas doesn't really make sense, because they all come in a package anyway.

Quote me saying that. Seriously, try.

You can't because I didn't.

What I said very clearly in the OP and have repeated several times now, is that in the scenario where a player chooses to ignore their class abilities (which should be a valid choice) it seems like sorcerers have a quantifiable advantage.

guybrushtb16_ESO · November 2014

Nerouyn wrote: »

What I said very clearly in the OP and have repeated several times now, is that in the scenario where a player chooses to ignore their class abilities (which should be a valid choice) it seems like sorcerers have a quantifiable advantage.

First of all, I don't think anybody ever said things would be entirely balanced if you for whatever reason chose to completely ignore your active class abilities and only skilled passives. And it doesn't make much sense either, because the primary concern of balancing should obviously be how well classes compare to each other when they do use their classes' abilities, because that's what 99% of the players will do naturally.

Then, you are still comparing solely ultimate performance vs. ultimate performance, and literally every response you got on that is that this is comparison alone is not going anywhere.

Again: yes, sorcerers get cheaper ultimates. They are straight better at using non-class ultimates. Nobody doubted that. But other classes get other stuff. Among other things (and somewhat simplified), Nightblades get passive boni to stealth, DKs get passive boni to fire damage, templars get passive boni to healing (somewhat). Nobody else gets stealth, nobody else gets fire damage, nobody else gets healing. Now you can go and make 3 threads about equality of stealth, fire damage and healing, but ultimately what counts is how good the whole package is.

Also, going with your example, the best class to use non-class actives in general would probably be nightblade, just thought I would throw this out there.

xaraan · November 2014

Nightblades and DKs both have an ability bonus that gives them increased ulti gain though.

Nightreaver · November 2014

Nerouyn wrote: »

Templars, nightblades and dragonknights have class passives which increase ultimate gain based on usage of class active abilities and nightblades have an ultimate morph which boosts ultimate gain from kills when equipped.

So by design it looks like in relation to ultimates sorcerers have the freedom to completely ignore class (active) abilities - should they want to - but relative to sorcerers other classes would be at a disadvantage doing the same.

Is that right or have I missed something?

If Sorcerers are the only class that are unable to gain Ultimate through their class abilities then it seems to me that it is the Sorcerers that are at the greatest disadvantage. Or do people actually choose a class with no intention of using the abilities from that class?

Jacques Berge · November 2014

They are not at the greatest disadvantage. They get a sweeping 15% off all of their ultimates... That's 30 off storm atro and 38 off of negate, the only passive that's better is the NB transfer and that's only when coupled with sap essence. This allows the sorcerer to use what ever they like to build ultimate and not rely on a single skill to build it. In actuality. It's the DKs who get the short straw on ult gain.earthen heart abilities are niche skills that aren't being spammed. Templar are next in line with a 4% off their passives and then 2 ult gain through dawn's wrath usage, another line without spammable skills.

You can say "Sorcs don't have ult gain like NBs" that would be a true statement. In PVE I practically live inside of a perpetual VoB. But don't say sorcs dont have access to ult passives... Cause they do, and a pretty good one too... It's your build that is going to contribute the most to your ult gain, not your class, unless you're a NB lol... As in crit chance.

aco5712 · November 2014

Its balanced somewhat imo:

DK: Battle roar = OP as **** - standard is strong as hell
Sorc: 15% ulti reduction - negate is boss
NB: generate ulti super quick - veil is best aoe ulti imo, radius is small to compensate that
Templar: 4% ulti reduction and 2 ulti gain for using a dawn's wrath - sweep is nice, very cheap, easy to spam and it hits nice - only complaint i would say is nova costs 50 ulti too much. Nova hits like a truck and will wreck people but the cost is too high to use it regularly.

Soris · November 2014

Nova(and morphs) costs 300 naturally. Duration is 9.2 seconds, deals magical damage and ticks are somewhere around 150-250. Requires 2 people for full effect.

It's good if someone pressing X, but if you are solo, it aint gonna wreck anyone.

Also templar's ulti gain is super slow compared to DKs and NBs or maybe streak sorcs.

BugCollector · November 2014

Nightblades and Dragonknights do not need any reduction, cause their ulti gain is already good and ulti cost is very low. The only thing that needs to change is Templar's Nova ulti cost. Nova cost (with all passives applied) should be 200 instead of the ridiculous 288 (with all passives applied).

Jahosefat · November 2014

Nerouyn wrote: »

What I said very clearly in the OP and have repeated several times now, is that in the scenario where a player chooses to ignore their class abilities (which should be a valid choice) it seems like sorcerers have a quantifiable advantage.

No I don't think it is a clear advantage, at least for a comparison of Sorc vs DK vs NB. When I've been in small groups with everyone rolling soul assault we would all get it back at roughly the same time. Even our temp keeps up from healing ult generation.

Do sorcs have a general ultimate cost reduction that makes non-class ults the cheapest for them to use? Yes. Does this mean sorcs get non-class ults back faster than other classes in actual pvp fights? No, I have found ult availability to be pretty consistent between all classes. Does this make a difference in PVE? Maybe, I don't know.

Pmarsico9 · November 2014

faernaa wrote: »

Nova(and morphs) costs 300 naturally. Duration is 9.2 seconds, deals magical damage and ticks are somewhere around 150-250. Requires 2 people for full effect.

It's good if someone pressing X, but if you are solo, it aint gonna wreck anyone.

Also templar's ulti gain is super slow compared to DKs and NBs or maybe streak sorcs.

That's because the class was designed to be healing and dealing damage at the same time. It's why Nova's cost is stupid. It's why the class' design is so screwed up.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · November 2014

Nerouyn wrote: »

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

No, it's not very clear, and Imryll was absolutely correct in pointing out that you are taking things out of context. Yes, sorcerers get the cheapest ultimates, but DKs get a free tri-pot every time they use one and NBs get to build the more ultimate through death stroke. Templars get the short end of the stick as usual, but at least they have a healing ultimate, for all that it's worth.

It seems I need to repeat myself because you missed it yet again.

I'm talking about circumstances in which players choose not to use any active class abilities. So you can see how most of your response is completely irrelevant, or as you prefer, out of context.

The DK health/magicka/stamina recovery on ultimate use passive is potentially relevant and possibly puts them on par with sorcs. But that would still leave NBs and temps behind.

FYI you do realise that there non-class ultimates right?

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Taking one of these areas out it and saying "XXX is stronger then everybody else" based on only one of these areas doesn't really make sense, because they all come in a package anyway.

Quote me saying that. Seriously, try.

You can't because I didn't.

What I said very clearly in the OP and have repeated several times now, is that in the scenario where a player chooses to ignore their class abilities (which should be a valid choice) it seems like sorcerers have a quantifiable advantage.

seems like YOU missed it yet again. what these guys are saying is that the context you are using is out of context. you are separating a facet of the game into a compartment out of the context of the rest of the game. you could do this with any class and any area, they all have upsides and downsides from eachother.

furthermore, sorc does not have a de facto advantage in this context you are stating; the battleroar passive is very strong. on my alt dk I have got as much as 900 health for poping ult. also, for it to be a hands down no arguement you would need to assume popping ult the second you get it 100% of the time is the best option. It is not always the best option.

I would go as far as to say that DK has the best advantage when it comes to ults, class or non class, because battle roar passive is better then the cost reduction. but that is only my opinion not a fact.

Jacques Berge · November 2014

YEAH!!! How dare they incorporate a class system and not have the classes be perfectly equal in every aspect of the game. I want to be able to burst heal with my NB and go invisible and execute with my Templar. Come on guys. All the classes should have the same skills. Just with different names and colors. We'll be like power rangers.

Spangla · November 2014

I actually think ult's are one thing that is balanced throughout class's.

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

The problem for Templars is that their ultimates are terrible. While players rightly fear a well-placed Negate, a timely Veil of Blades or basically any Standard, no one is really fearing the Templar ultimates, and for good reason. They just cost too much or do too little.

This made me laugh - Nova is a sick ultimate you know nothing!

david.haypreub18_ESO · November 2014

Spangla wrote: »

I actually think ult's are one thing that is balanced throughout class's.

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

The problem for Templars is that their ultimates are terrible. While players rightly fear a well-placed Negate, a timely Veil of Blades or basically any Standard, no one is really fearing the Templar ultimates, and for good reason. They just cost too much or do too little.

This made me laugh - Nova is a sick ultimate you know nothing!

My main is a Templar. I've tried Nova a lot. People just roll out of it. And it costs way too much.

It was apparently pretty useful when it was bugged... now, not so much.

Soris · November 2014

Lel nova.. You don't even need to roll out and waste your stamina. Just walk away, you'll be fine. Poor templars can't even keep you inside of it

Cathexis · December 2014

Lol ya Nerf sorcs cause they are the ones who are inv rootspamming
/eye roll

Sorcs have uneven ultimate gain because they are full on magika oriented and are also the squishiest class, especially since bolt escape seems to be on a steady decline of effectiveness from patch to patch.
At what point do sorcs get some sort of unique advantage in the same way other classes do exactly? Were just supposed to be the civilians of cyrodiil? Besides sorc ults are very situational. Atronarch is largely for pve or solo PvP situations, negate has significantly been less useful since the last patch because of increases in stamina builds (really only a good counter for vamp or situational anti zerg), and overload uses ult incrementally in small amounts anyway.

The classes aren't supposed to be the same, just equivalent in strength.

Auber · December 2014

This is the stupidest topic I've seen in awhile, and I've made some stupid topics.

Nerouyn · January 2015

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

First of all, I don't think anybody ever said things would be entirely balanced if you for whatever reason chose to completely ignore your active class abilities and only skilled passives.

You can do exactly that. IF you're a sorcerer.