So, About That Dungeon Scaling

qwyksylver · November 2014

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

So you and your top tier friends are some of the few that get to fully enjoy a game you bought, good, that is expected. No doubt , I agree %100.

But what about the noob pug group that knows how to play but can't clear stuff because they don't have the time to figure out every mechanic. You shouldn't have to have a book of spreadsheets for each encounter, just to clear a delve because someone else thought it was too easy.

And.. At the same time it's hardly fair for you and your friends might have to play a game so easy for you it's boring.. Which brings me to.....

The need of servers for easy, medium, and hard mode. It's the only way to make everyone happy. Pvp would stay the way it is though.

No, just no. Redesigning the entire server system into easy medium and hard is ridiculous, not only because of the work it would take on their end as well as the amount of time the servers would be down but what happens when you suddenly want more of a challenge? If there are ppl jumping servers just to change the difficulty that puts much unneeded stress on the servers. Secondly normal mode dungeon for players under v1 are still not terribly hard, challenging yes and if you don't have ts or an equivalent you might die a few times but def still PuGable and that is where you learn the mechanics for the dungeons. By the time you start vet pledges you should know how the boss fights work and be prepared, this is how ppl are clearing the vet dungeons daily, they are versed in the fights. After running pledges teh only thing I would really like to see is a slight drop to the amount of health the bosses now have. I have no problem with challenging but sitting there for 5 minutes dpsing the boss with no one dying is boring.

SteveCampsOut · November 2014

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Scaling simply needs to be an option. It's that simple.

It is an option. You play with their scaling or you opt out and go play something else. That's what I keep hearing anyway... o.O

GreyBrow · November 2014

seriously l2p.

the dungeon's need to be

HARDER.

they're not scaled enough

they're still ridiculously easy

Spark · November 2014

I also do feel that the dungeons are unevenly scaled. Fully scaled Spindleclutch was a walk in the park all the way through. However, with pretty much the same group, Banished Cells boss with the damaging spheres + daedra adds was a LOT harder. I'd figure this is because the difficulty scaling is automatic scaling of the numbers, and not a thought-out change in the mechanics. Automatically changing the numbers will make some bosses harder, some fights just longer, etc.

I know it's fun to have hard stuff in game. I love that ***. But I feel bad for PUG people who just want to do group content. Majority of players will, after all, be average in skill.

zaria · November 2014

pppontus wrote: »

The scaled normal versions are far, far easier than the scaled vet dungeons - and that is how it should have been. People who say that it was satisfying before, satisfying how? Every single veteran dungeon was "faceroll keyboard, win" for us, and we aren't THAT good, we never cared about optimizing groups etc. The only challenging thing we could do was DSA or maaaybe trials, but that required us to get 12 people together and I usually do that with another guild.

TL;DR: Scaling is good, it provides small groups with "good but not elite" players a challenge as well, that didn't exist before unless you had 2-4 hours to kill in DSA. Vet dungeons should be HARD, really damn hard. Normal ones are there if you want it easier, and those should be able to be completed by anyone if you just adapt to some strategies.

I also think some people may have missed this from the patch notes, which is the most likely reason behind bosses having more HP across the board:

Large monsters that are not bosses are no longer more powerful than bosses, and boss monsters are now more powerful

VR dungeons was faceroll then you have an VR14 group.
At the lower VR levels is was an wipe feast, that is an group on the dungeons level would have to be very good to beat it, once you outlevel it it becomes easier.

The leveling is mostly good, with the exception of bosses who spawns lot of adds.

Rhian-Skybladeb16_ESO · November 2014

I do not consider myself a ruddy newbie nor a "casual" player. I am a middle-thing between hardcore and casual - depending how much time the real world prios leave me.

I tried to take upon some boss in Craglorn together with a VR 10 dragonknight.
We got wiped within two seconds.

Not because we were dumb or "under-dressed".

I got self-crafted set-gear (appropriate to my level) and epic food/drink on me.
My stats are maxed out and so are my skills - I have a wide palette from which I can choose.

I noticed that most monsters in VR Dungeons cannot be snared or rooted.
Especially not the entourage which is connected to the boss...
That a boss mob cannot be snared or rooted, OK... can live with that.

But that it does not work on the zerg surrounding the boss - that sucks.

Leaves no room for strategy. The boss alone is hard enough and still has to be kited around and kept busy.
But being swarmed by a "immune to all except direct dmg" zerg... which can only be defeated by a full group is totally for the potty.

Why?

1. It is hard enough to find a group that is willing to do those group dungeons. Most are happy they got them finally done and never have to repeat them. So there are rarely any groups going...

2. and if there are, they want most likely a class you cannot provide or a level you have not gotten yet because there are no more quests you could do on your own to level up in time before the next dumb level cap comes and makes it even harder to get anything done.

3. Making your own group - hell yes - good idea - but you can count yourself lucky when you get maybe one or two others... a group of 3 might suffice for a normal dungeon boss (two normal non-vampires at VR10 not ).

But ending the boss of a quest chain - forget it... there you need 4... I have now two quests open that require me to kill the final final final boss...the zerg was too big and could not be CCed.

Dungeon Scaling should not mean that you have to "zerg" - spells should still work on mobs that are not the boss - even if they are connected to the boss!

I do not consider a zerg a challenge.
If you cannot defeat them with strategy, because they are immune to everything that could be used strategically, you can only zerg back... oh how challenging. That's just a digital peeing contest of who has the most and bigger XXXX....

My 2cents...

Make dungeon scaling reasonable and also depending on how many people are in that group.
Dungeon scaling also includes loot... just so the 24/7 Hotel-Mommy-Students and Pizza-Singles don't have to cry about "normal working & real social life" people also getting decent loot rewards. I do not quests for the loot, I do it for the story and the fun.

Cazic · November 2014

Hey guys,

This might have been covered already, but I wanted some clarification and would rather not start another thread. I don't run dungeons too often so some of this may be obvious.

There is difference between Normal and Veteran dungeons besides the mob difficulty, right? For example, different quests, different bosses, etc...

I'm wondering because if you enter a Normal dungeon at VR3 for example, the mobs scale to VR3. But, that is just the scaling changing the mob difficulty, while still being in the Normal version of the dungeon, as opposed to the Veteran version. Do I have that right?

Thanks.

Aeratus · November 2014

Cazic wrote: »

There is difference between Normal and Veteran dungeons besides the mob difficulty, right? For example, different quests, different bosses, etc...

Yes, the bosses are different (and the storyline is different if you actually followed it). If you have the quest for one, you can't complete the quest by doing the other version.

I'm wondering because if you enter a Normal dungeon at VR3 for example, the mobs scale to VR3. But, that is just the scaling changing the mob difficulty, while still being in the Normal version of the dungeon, as opposed to the Veteran version. Do I have that right?

Yes.

Cazic · November 2014

Aeratus wrote: »

Cazic wrote: »

There is difference between Normal and Veteran dungeons besides the mob difficulty, right? For example, different quests, different bosses, etc...

Yes, the bosses are different (and the storyline is different if you actually followed it). If you have the quest for one, you can't complete the quest by doing the other version.

I'm wondering because if you enter a Normal dungeon at VR3 for example, the mobs scale to VR3. But, that is just the scaling changing the mob difficulty, while still being in the Normal version of the dungeon, as opposed to the Veteran version. Do I have that right?

Yes.

Thanks

Quintal · November 2014

Please, do NOT nerf dungeons...

AlexDougherty · November 2014

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Scaling simply needs to be an option. It's that simple.

It is an option. You play with their scaling or you opt out and go play something else. That's what I keep hearing anyway... o.O

Hobson's choice is not a choice.

Xjcon · November 2014

Optimization is the key. I've ran with mostly pugs everyday so far and been able to finish most of the pledges. The groups I go with that aren't build optimized are failing. The ones that do have no issues. Which boils down to that old saying ADAPT.

It's sad that we have to figure out how to optimize a build or think how we should gear ourselves to tackle the content. Why can't we just play in quest trash and finish everything?

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

You miss the point here, a point even I the OP, have made quite clear.

You cannot do these in Quest gear, that's good, very good. You shouldn't need trials gear or the "Best and Perfect Build" to do these either. They should be challenging to all levels but they sure as *** should not be impossible to one group that knows what they're doing well enough and mildly difficult at best to the fully optimized, near military quality guilds and groups.

Choice and Variety are the spice of life, and right now there isn't much choice to be had.

Aeratus · November 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

You miss the point here, a point even I the OP, have made quite clear.

You cannot do these in Quest gear, that's good, very good. You shouldn't need trials gear or the "Best and Perfect Build" to do these either. They should be challenging to all levels but they sure as *** should not be impossible to one group that knows what they're doing well enough and mildly difficult at best to the fully optimized, near military quality guilds and groups.

Choice and Variety are the spice of life, and right now there isn't much choice to be had.

First, you don't need trials gear at all to do this. Not even close. Your statement is a huge exaggeration, just like how people used to say that you need light armor to complete AA trials (proven wrong by the groups that have completed AA with everyone naked). Crafted blue-level gear is easily enough for the vet dungeons.

As to what is difficult or impossible, depends on the point of view. Plenty of people think that the difficult is fine. The vet dungeons are obviously nowhere as hard as the endgame stuff, like sanctum or vet DSA. So they are an intermediate difficult content.

Draconerus · November 2014

Dungeon scaling is fine. My guild and I often run these dungeons without tank.

Alphashado · November 2014

Normal scaled versions need to be toned down. Period. The entire concept of the normal version is to offer fun, entertainment, and incentive for casual players. Yet when people come here to express their concern about it, they just get insulted by elitist players that aren't happy enough that they already have VR versions to satisfy their taste.

Normal -Easy
VR - Hard
VR Gold Key - Harder

Why is this concept so insulting and frightening to elite players? It makes you guys seem greedy. It makes it look like you want the entire game to cater to your playstyle and to hell with everyone else. The bigger picture here is the already diminished player base that will continue to shrink even further if the normal scaled versions aren't toned down some. ESPECIALLY now since grinding Craglorn has been nerfed to the ground. Dungeons are one of the few remaining ways to get xp.

So why get bent at the notion of toning down normal versions for casual players? I just don't get it.

timidobserver · November 2014

I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.

Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.

As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.

EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.

starkerealm · November 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

Why is this concept so insulting and frightening to elite players?

Elitist players are the ones who want to be able to say, "I did this thing, and there's no way you mere mortals can match mah skillz!" Almost by definition, that means they need to find a way to exclude as many players as possible from whatever they're doing, so their exceptionalism isn't challenged.

You have some players who do things that are truly insane in games, but you have a lot of people who want to be that good, but don't have the ability to actually be that good.

For them, the only way is bragging rights on doing something that has been closed off to everyone else. They've found a way to game the system so they can clear the scaled dungeons with ease, and they don't want you to know what it is, nor do they want it being returned to something that most players can actually do. Because, it allows them to thump their chest, and declare their superiority.

You'll notice, when an elitist says, "no the water's fine, don't fix anything, you all need to learn to adapt/learn to play/whatever," they're not offering any advice on how to clear the content. They just go, "no, you are not worthy, go starve in the sewers!"

starkerealm · November 2014

timidobserver wrote: »

I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.

Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.

As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.

EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.

Honestly, scaling should probably work off flat stat modifiers, rather than a % modifier... at least, the impression I've gotten is that everything's getting it's stats modified by a %.

SteveCampsOut · November 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Scaling simply needs to be an option. It's that simple.

It is an option. You play with their scaling or you opt out and go play something else. That's what I keep hearing anyway... o.O

Hobson's choice is not a choice.

You're preaching to the Choir! But it's currently the only choice we have and if fanboi's get their way, it's all we'll ever have.

ThisOnePosts · November 2014

I actually love the fact that I can play all dungeons now where enemies are at least VR12 --- whether normal or VR.

CoH was a lot of fun but honestly it was not much different from a normal run VR CoH. Blackheart Haven was fun to do where all enemies were VR12. We even did it without 2 healers. There were a few parts where my entire team was wiped and I got everyone up (on a NB...DPS) and we finished the fight and moved on to completing the dungeon. So many epic new moments created thanks to dungeons scaling higher now!

Keep at it ZOS.. although I wouldn't mind for those not wanting to participate in scaling to have an "option" to do it without but maybe less a chance for a great loot. Then those of us who like this have what we want, and those who don't want increased enemy difficulty don't have to. Win/Win/Win (Us/Them/ZOS)

timidobserver · November 2014

starkerealm wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.

Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.

As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.

EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.

Honestly, scaling should probably work off flat stat modifiers, rather than a % modifier... at least, the impression I've gotten is that everything's getting it's stats modified by a %.

Yeh, but that is complicated. Just adding an easier mode with flat across the line lowered difficulty is easier and should be doable quickly.

starkerealm · November 2014

timidobserver wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.

Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.

As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.

EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.

Honestly, scaling should probably work off flat stat modifiers, rather than a % modifier... at least, the impression I've gotten is that everything's getting it's stats modified by a %.

Yeh, but that is complicated. Just adding an easier mode with flat across the line lowered difficulty is easier and should be doable quickly.

No... do it right or just take out the scaling entirely. This half measure, "let's just slap the whole thing with a multiplier" is how we got into this mess in the first place.

helediron · November 2014

starkerealm wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.

Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.

As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.

EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.

Honestly, scaling should probably work off flat stat modifiers, rather than a % modifier... at least, the impression I've gotten is that everything's getting it's stats modified by a %.

Yeh, but that is complicated. Just adding an easier mode with flat across the line lowered difficulty is easier and should be doable quickly.

No... do it right or just take out the scaling entirely. This half measure, "let's just slap the whole thing with a multiplier" is how we got into this mess in the first place.

I wouldn't dismiss the multiplier thing so hastily. I played earlier DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) and before entering a dungeon, the group could choose casual, normal, hard or elite. The choice was a sort of difficulty multiplier. It also scaled the loot and choosing harder level increased chance to get exceptionally good items. Overall it worked quite well, and allowed people to choose their comfort level. Elite players got the best loot with few runs while hard needed e.g. ten runs.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · November 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We want to thank everyone for the feedback regarding the changes to the dungeon scaling we implemented in Update 5. We've read your concerns and are taking a very close look at how these changes have impacted difficulty for both groups and solo players. Thank you all for your patience—we’ll keep you updated.

Please, please, for the love of this game do not lower the difficulty of veteran dungeons. Lower skilled players can do normal dungeons for an appropriate challenge to their skill level. Casual players have EIGHTEEN group instances easily completable at their skill level (normal spindle through to vaults+ AA and HRC) whereas Higher skilled players have 11 (the 8 veteran dungeons, both forms of DSA and SO). This is brilliant it needs to stay this way and will result in a net increase of players compared to simply pandering to one group more than another. If you're going to nerf any content, simply just tone the normal dungeons a little. Just a little of course- Like leave vaults being a little bit challenging and normal spindle, fungle BC a walk through the park - gently tapering to vaults in difficulty as you pass through the dungeons.

Jacques Berge · November 2014

I ran through VoM with what was essentially a PUG group. The tank, a Templar, was tanking for the first time. The healer, a sorcerer, was healing for the first time. Both are cool people but far from epic raider status. The first dps is a good player but mainly does pvp. And then there was me, who has all the death and speed challenges, trials and such completed. We ran through VoM scaled to v12 with very little trouble. People like to quote... "Play your own way" and misinterpret it as "play your own way AND be successful". It annoys me that my pvp build is not very viable in PVE... But you know what I do? I get PVE gear, respec some skills and BLAMO I'm dishing out mad levels of dps.

Learn how to play video games... Then learn how to play ESO... Then learn how to build a competitive toon... You're an arsehole if you think ESO should cater to you and your lack of skill. Games are supposed to have a difficulty curve... The dungeon scaling is great.

starkerealm · November 2014

helediron wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.

Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.

As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.

EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.

Honestly, scaling should probably work off flat stat modifiers, rather than a % modifier... at least, the impression I've gotten is that everything's getting it's stats modified by a %.

Yeh, but that is complicated. Just adding an easier mode with flat across the line lowered difficulty is easier and should be doable quickly.

No... do it right or just take out the scaling entirely. This half measure, "let's just slap the whole thing with a multiplier" is how we got into this mess in the first place.

I wouldn't dismiss the multiplier thing so hastily. I played earlier DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) and before entering a dungeon, the group could choose casual, normal, hard or elite. The choice was a sort of difficulty multiplier. It also scaled the loot and choosing harder level increased chance to get exceptionally good items. Overall it worked quite well, and allowed people to choose their comfort level. Elite players got the best loot with few runs while hard needed e.g. ten runs.

Except, of course, D&D does exactly what I'm describing, when you move creatures levels up or down. They get a hit die, which increases their health by a fixed amount, their saves may go up, and their BAB might go up (if they have full BAB progression, or if they're at the right level for a 3/4s or 1/2 +1)... what they don't do is just get a flat hitpoint and base damage bonus, which is what we're seeing.

If you want multiple difficulties somewhere down the line, that's fine, but for every DDO, there's a Star Trek Online where the higher difficulties just resulted in one hit kills from hitscan attacks.

zaria · November 2014

timidobserver wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.

Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.

As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.

EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.

Honestly, scaling should probably work off flat stat modifiers, rather than a % modifier... at least, the impression I've gotten is that everything's getting it's stats modified by a %.

Yeh, but that is complicated. Just adding an easier mode with flat across the line lowered difficulty is easier and should be doable quickly.

Yes, however this makes trash stronger, its easy to notice that the trash is far more dangerous than before. Bosses who spawn lots of trash is an serious problem. Scaling looks like work well with the bosses themselves.

Icy · November 2014

Attempted to run Blackheart Haven (non-vet) on the weekend with guildies 2 x V4 + 2 x V10 (with a V4 leader). We wiped SOOOO many times. Our tank and healer were V4 and it took us over 2 hours. In then end, I had to leave before finishing the final boss (who we spent at least 30 min on).

Conversely part of the group had whizzed through non-vet Direfrost Keep (also as V4 scaled) in 30 minutes previously.

I'm not a noob and I'm not hard core. Non-vet scaling is too hard. It was like trying to do a vet dungeon, not a non-vet one.

1. Evaluate the scaling in each dungeon - difficulty seems to be uneven between different non-vet (scaled) dungeons
2. Make the non-vet dungeons not impossible to do - think about us non-hardcore players, please
3. More rewards - There is no way I came out even in gold after that; 1600 repair + massive numbers of soul gems (that I also now need for PvP)

Drasn · November 2014

Learn the games mechanics. Learn the mechanics of the instance you are attempting. Dodge roll and block are a thing. Don't be bad.

Dungeons are still easy.