I agree. PVP without FCs is... a lot more chill.

Battles usually last only a few minutes. Once you kill everyone, they have no close place to respawn, so the battle is essentially over. With FCs, you have to exterminate them into oblivion and push them out of your territory.

I also noticed that the best battle of the night was between two very close spawn points Sejanus and BRK. AD could respawn at Sej, EP could respawn at BRK, and the battle was right in the middle of them so the travel time was almost nothing.

No more endless mindless zergs, no more haphazard suicidal play, no more bloodporting across the map constantly.

More small-scale skirmishes between keeps, more meaningful keep attacks and defenses, more rewarding combat and kills, more interesting scroll runs.

PvP has been more enjoyable for me since 1.5 than it has been in months. Removal of forward camps is excellent.

Samadhi wrote: »

No more endless mindless zergs, no more haphazard suicidal play, no more bloodporting across the map constantly.

More small-scale skirmishes between keeps, more meaningful keep attacks and defenses, more rewarding combat and kills, more interesting scroll runs.

PvP has been more enjoyable for me since 1.5 than it has been in months. Removal of forward camps is excellent.

While I agree with all of this, as a huge stereotyping generalization today's MMO crowd needs instant gratification and without it, they leave.

I hope IC is in 1.6 as that can fill that void for those who loved FCs. I thought they should have waited to remove FCs until IC was out.

I assume your experience would vary depending on server, campaign and time of day, but for me, NA Thornblade in the evenings EST is still lively and as Samadhi describes. I am also enjoying PVP more since the removal of FCs.

Samadhi wrote: »

More small-scale skirmishes between keeps, more meaningful keep attacks and defenses, more rewarding combat and kills, more interesting scroll runs.

PvP has been more enjoyable for me since 1.5 than it has been in months. Removal of forward camps is excellent.

1. People created dueling leagues so they could have small scale skirmishes.
2. Keep attacks and defenses are considerably shorter with fewer kills and with less AP rewarded to the victor. I wouldn't call that more meaningful.
3. The presence or absence of camps has no impact on whether or not you enjoy killing someone more or less than a week ago.
4. Scroll runs are a lot less interesting now because once the scroll reaches the boundary of the real estate owned by the running team, there is almost no chance of any future engagement until the scroll is secured. With camps, there were typically fights during the entire journey.

PVP has never been more boring in this game than it is now. The amount of action on the map has dropped a good 80% or more. Those epic, hours long keep sieges which were incredibly fun are a thing of the past. Current keep sieges are a snooze fest. The removal of forward camps is the worst thing to happen to PVP since its inception.

I loved the ability to login for short intervals and jump right into epic siege battles. The map is so big, people will now spend more time on horseback. Sure you can say people will be more cautious, but that doesn't alleviate the fact that when you do die, and overtime, it will become increasingly frustrating, boring, and time consuming getting back into the action. This is a generation of twitch gamers who want fast paced instant action. I have limited time. I would prefer to spend my PAID time, fighting, rather than on horseback getting constantly ganked, just to run across the map over and over again. If I want to waste time wandering around looking for small pockets of non-existent pvp or a snooze fest siege, I'd just play AoC.

If I had to guess, they removed the FC due to the mega server not being able to handle the 200+ pvp players as advertised prior to launch. Hence, all the lag people have been experiencing. Therefore, they removed the FC to compensate and distribute the pvp load. Then pawned it off as a positive strategic move.

Samadhi wrote: »

No more endless mindless zergs, no more haphazard suicidal play, no more bloodporting across the map constantly.

More small-scale skirmishes between keeps, more meaningful keep attacks and defenses, more rewarding combat and kills, more interesting scroll runs.

PvP has been more enjoyable for me since 1.5 than it has been in months. Removal of forward camps is excellent.

Totally agree! I felt the same last night!

Samadhi wrote: »

No more endless mindless zergs, no more haphazard suicidal play, no more bloodporting across the map constantly.

More small-scale skirmishes between keeps, more meaningful keep attacks and defenses, more rewarding combat and kills, more interesting scroll runs.

This doesn't stop zergs. It almost encourages it. Keeping a large number together can wipe out small groups without the smaller group being able to return. Yes small groups can hold their ground if done correctly, (I'm apart of such a guild) however, there can easily be a larger organized group too. which then makes the small groups redundant.
FCs, used correctly, where very tactical. Finding enemy FCs was also a tactical strategy.

Lets not forget an FC couldn't simply be put up anywhere, there where some restrictions.

What should have been done, which would have resolved most of the issues is; lock the FCs to only those that died within its radius. Very simple.
It stops the suicide teleporting. And if the lvl restriction was implemented, that would of helped FCs being abused too.
I would even accept FCs be locked to a group, that would suck for some, but it is still better than ridding FCs entirely.

Its complete removal has given away a competitive edge smaller groups could use.


Also for the more dominate alliance, they can still die and simply respawn at another keep, making it more difficult for other alliances to gain any ground

without the elder scrolls lore this game would be dead by now.
PvP is not good.
endgame PvE is boring considering the game has 0 character progression, i can get strong as someone who plays this for 6 months just by leveling to vr14 and crafting my own gear.

Akula wrote: »

I see the problem now. A whole school of pvpers here have never had to dissect the strategic battle map for themselves. They simply have looked for a little tent , suicided and clicked there for battle. Easy peasy and no thinking involved attall.

No wonder they they are unable to look at the map and figure out where their alliances push will be moving and where the enemies push will come from...because thats a bit hard and well....clicking on da lil tent is easy....

Its also no wonder we have some complainers here, they are simply mindlessly wandering around the countryside without putting one thought into why they are not seeing action. Then they come across an enemy that is also stuck on stupid, also in the middle of nowhere, and one of them gets ganked.

So naturally they come here and say "jeez boring, nobodys pvping na mer with no tents...". Yeah dont blame it on the fact that you are too ignorant to put some minimal brain power into figuring it out for yourself...

Cause thinkings a bit is hard...tents er eazy...

Day or night I have yet to not be minutes away from a good fight. Rezzing is starting to be more prevalent and some epic battles are going on. But you know, keep aimlessly wandering like a ignorant zombie so you can come here and cry.

Just stop already.
You are not a pvp guru , you are not pointing out anything new to anyone who has spent an hour in cyrodiil.

It's not about being a smart player or adapting to the current gameplay.

It's that the current gameplay IS BORING.

The absence of forward camps is not distributing fights all over the map, or working as anti-zerg.
THE opposite will be the case and people will stuck together more and more. Beside that, pvp will be much more time-consuming - punishing players if the need to go AFK.
You will also be much less motivated to join fights at the other end of the map which for many pvp'ers is the most intersting aspect of fighting.
On maps that are dominated by one faction... just imagine what happens! Nothing, thats it

Fights will concentrate at certain node points and people will even more search for a group and form zerg-trains because that is the safest way to travel. Not much will really change - just more boredom especially on dominated-maps..
Cyrondil remains too large, imo they could cut it 50% and halve all the distances between keeps. Remember why forward camps where introduced, that wasn't casually or by mistake..

Valymer wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Those epic, hours long keep sieges which were incredibly fun are a thing of the past.

You mean those ones where lag was so bad that you couldn't open doors, switch weapons, or use your abilities? And ultimately the server would often completely shut down?

Really gonna miss those.

LOL indeed! But nevermind @LonePirate‌ , all that matters to him is AP and instant gratification. Even though the actual map in Cyrodiil is being used now, people are only focussed on how their AP gain rate has decreased and how they need to ride more often. See the pattern here? Something about Quality vs Quantity.

DeathDealer19 wrote: »

Pvp w/o camps is pvp how it should be. Player skill vs player skill. No more endless waves of people flooding without care just trying to overwhelm a defense. Thank you zenimax for removing camps! If its a big deal to respawn at a keep, dont die so much :-)

Using FCs as intended is not a question of player skills.
Yes the teleporting across the map was an issue. but THAT was the issue, not the FC itself.

A skilled player would tactically hide an FC so that way if they were to get wiped and out numbered by a zerg, they could respawn close by, but now no fcs are rendering their small group unable to achieve anything.
In reversed roles, it was tactical to find an FC and burn it down. Leaving your keep to sneak behind the enemy and destroy their FC.
That's what I found fun. the tactics. and the intensity of retaliation.

If you want purely player v player, as in duels, then Cyrodiil isn't the place. Its a place for tactics, which include knowing your strengths and weaknesses, as well as positioning your group and know the enemies.

'Dueling' will normally be decided by who hits first or who hits hardest (or who is a DK), not by who is more skilled.
Yes a skilled player can take down dks etc blah blah blah, i know. But generally groups are required to work well and efficiently to make any impact.
Without FCs it is no longer about 'who is more skilled or tactical' but who has more players.
and yes a good player can stand their ground, blah blah blah, i know. But their is only so much that can be taken before inevitably being overwhelmed.
And alot of players, pugs, obviously aren't capable of standing their ground when out numbered.



I think there could've been a better way in dealing with the unintended suicide travel instead of removing FCs completely.
Like restricting revivals to only those in the FC radius. That's a very simple solution.
Also if that isn't enough, have the lvl restrictions on fcs, or even lock fcs to groups only.

I have some camps but I wont use them in fear they will be wasted by pugs. So I guess it could be seen as a good incentive for people to use them carefully, but it now prevents me and/or others from helping those who actually need the help

LonePirate wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

More small-scale skirmishes between keeps, more meaningful keep attacks and defenses, more rewarding combat and kills, more interesting scroll runs.

PvP has been more enjoyable for me since 1.5 than it has been in months. Removal of forward camps is excellent.

1. People created dueling leagues so they could have small scale skirmishes.
2. Keep attacks and defenses are considerably shorter with fewer kills and with less AP rewarded to the victor. I wouldn't call that more meaningful.
3. The presence or absence of camps have impact on whether or not you enjoy killing someone more or less than a week ago.
4. Scroll runs are a lot less interesting now because once the scroll reaches the boundary of the real estate owned by the running team, there is almost no chance of any future engagement until the scroll is secured. With camps, there were typically fights during the entire journey.

PVP has never been more boring in this game than it is now. There amount of action on the map has dropped a good 80% or more. Those epic, hours long keep sieges which were incredibly fun are a thing of the past. Current keep sieges are a snooze fest. The removal of forward camps is the worst thing to happen to PVP since its inception.

Maybe the solution is to allow forward camps but they have to be a certain distance away from objectives. This would allow forces to return to keeps and chase scrolls. What it would not allow however is turtleing inside a keep that you are losing. Respawning to safety inside a keep is crap and furthermore if the keep is under siege postern doors should be locked to everyone how is it logical that the door only magically opens for you but not the horde chasing you?