mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

You guys should stop flinging insults back and forth(and that goes for both sides).

How dare you! it was you who started it :<!

I agree they should really remove all camps from the game and give back the AP value.

Considering the patch notes went out before the EU servers went down we saw people buy stacks of camps to use, there are even rumours of SWAT owning 3,000 camps (where did you guys store them all?).

Koensol wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

The point is: This is a game, and people play to win.
You can refuse to do things on principle, but that makes you a bad player.
You can rationalize it as much as you want with "I wanted the challenge" or "I was having more fun" but the truth is, you let your ego get in the way of victory.

You should always take opportunities or you are gimping yourself.
There is a reason why players exploit the aoe cap, or exploited FCs, or join buff campaigns or that they hoarded FCs: To gain an advantage, or at the very least, not be at an advantage.

Hate the game, not the players.
So rather than calling people pathetic, call the rules pathetic.

You make a point, but from a perspective which is that of the super competitive winner/power gamer. Not all share that perspective, and can make judgements based upon that. As for your statement "hate the game, not the players", I do not agree with it. It is the player's choice to exploit something. It's not their fault it is possible, true. But others can find their acts pathetic if they want to. It's all opinion in the end and you don't have to agree.

The thing is: No, it is not the player's choice.
The framework of the game has made that choice for them by making the questions "What is the superior course of action?" be very easy to answer.

The core of all games is to do what the rules tell you to do.
There is no possible debate, hoarding those FCs were the proper choice to make, just like stacking on top of each other or joining a buff campaign is.
Would you play without armor if you had a value system saying that wearing clothes is for [snip]?

I'm a scrub, I play a suboptimal build for my own enjoyment, and I do not stack in PvP, but I do so knowing that it makes me a scrub.
But at no point do I blame someone for playing the game by the rules.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

They could bring the tents back and add a cooldown to them. Have like a 12h cooldown before you can resurrect at any tent again. Maybe a skill that you can invest in that drops the cooldown to 6h and then to 3h. Something along those lines.

Turelus wrote: »

I agree they should really remove all camps from the game and give back the AP value.

Considering the patch notes went out before the EU servers went down we saw people buy stacks of camps to use, there are even rumours of SWAT owning 3,000 camps (where did you guys store them all?).

I like the fact there are rumours about how many camps different guilds have XD

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I agree they should really remove all camps from the game and give back the AP value.

Considering the patch notes went out before the EU servers went down we saw people buy stacks of camps to use, there are even rumours of SWAT owning 3,000 camps (where did you guys store them all?).

I like the fact there are rumours about how many camps different guilds have XD

I will confirm that any rumours about Wabbajack being completely terrible and not stacking up on camps are 100% true. We saw it was coming (I'm a forums addict) and kind of just went "meh... why bother". In hind sight... oops!

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Its pretty damn pathetic that people have been hoarding camps on EU server. I still see tons of camps being placed there. The people who have done so are the reason companies, schools, games, forums, etc etc have so many rules and restrictions. People will grab any chance to bypass a dev chance, only to give them the upper hand and be able to win. Be ashamed, seriously.

You've posted the same rubbish on another thread. Before calling people pathetic you need to learn to logic.

Guilds did not stockpile either to outsmart the devs or to gain an advantage. They did it out of necessity to keep an even footing. There will always be someone or some guild that stockpiles camps and the others that don't will be at a huge disadvantage. Hence the only way to achieve balance is for everyone to do the rational thing and stock up. It's Game Theory 101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

With monumental failures of logic like yours, I would refrain from presuming to know what the devs intended. If they didn't want people placing camps they wouldn't have a restriction on deploying camps for players below Alliance Rank 6 only. They would have put that restriction on every single player regardless of rank.

Devs tend to have brains. They obviously knew with a days notice EU would stock up on camps. They also had means to stop people from placing camps but made a decision not to use it. This alone suggests the current situation where we have FCs but they are being placed far more carefully and sporadically is actually intended.

Insult people less and use your brain more pls.

Always funny to see exploiters blame their actions on other exploiters making it necessary, and then complain about other people's logic. I don't care why you did it, but I am glad I don't play in the EU because I'd be beyond pissed. Morally gray is not cool, it shows intellectual laziness and a disregard for the rest of society.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Its pretty damn pathetic that people have been hoarding camps on EU server. I still see tons of camps being placed there. The people who have done so are the reason companies, schools, games, forums, etc etc have so many rules and restrictions. People will grab any chance to bypass a dev chance, only to give them the upper hand and be able to win. Be ashamed, seriously.

You've posted the same rubbish on another thread. Before calling people pathetic you need to learn to logic.

Guilds did not stockpile either to outsmart the devs or to gain an advantage. They did it out of necessity to keep an even footing. There will always be someone or some guild that stockpiles camps and the others that don't will be at a huge disadvantage. Hence the only way to achieve balance is for everyone to do the rational thing and stock up. It's Game Theory 101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

With monumental failures of logic like yours, I would refrain from presuming to know what the devs intended. If they didn't want people placing camps they wouldn't have a restriction on deploying camps for players below Alliance Rank 6 only. They would have put that restriction on every single player regardless of rank.

Devs tend to have brains. They obviously knew with a days notice EU would stock up on camps. They also had means to stop people from placing camps but made a decision not to use it. This alone suggests the current situation where we have FCs but they are being placed far more carefully and sporadically is actually intended.

Insult people less and use your brain more pls.

Always funny to see exploiters blame their actions on other exploiters making it necessary, and then complain about other people's logic. I don't care why you did it, but I am glad I don't play in the EU because I'd be beyond pissed. Morally gray is not cool, it shows intellectual laziness and a disregard for the rest of society.

Always funny to see people calling exploits whatever they don't agree with. Thanks for dropping by

So this was intended? Keep telling yourself that until the devs delete all your camps and refuse to even give you a refund, which would be the most suitable way to deal with this attempt at bypassing their attempts to improve Cyrodiil.

Going to have to get some popcorn for this one...

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Its pretty damn pathetic that people have been hoarding camps on EU server. I still see tons of camps being placed there. The people who have done so are the reason companies, schools, games, forums, etc etc have so many rules and restrictions. People will grab any chance to bypass a dev chance, only to give them the upper hand and be able to win. Be ashamed, seriously.

You've posted the same rubbish on another thread. Before calling people pathetic you need to learn to logic.

Guilds did not stockpile either to outsmart the devs or to gain an advantage. They did it out of necessity to keep an even footing. There will always be someone or some guild that stockpiles camps and the others that don't will be at a huge disadvantage. Hence the only way to achieve balance is for everyone to do the rational thing and stock up. It's Game Theory 101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

With monumental failures of logic like yours, I would refrain from presuming to know what the devs intended. If they didn't want people placing camps they wouldn't have a restriction on deploying camps for players below Alliance Rank 6 only. They would have put that restriction on every single player regardless of rank.

Devs tend to have brains. They obviously knew with a days notice EU would stock up on camps. They also had means to stop people from placing camps but made a decision not to use it. This alone suggests the current situation where we have FCs but they are being placed far more carefully and sporadically is actually intended.

Insult people less and use your brain more pls.

Always funny to see exploiters blame their actions on other exploiters making it necessary, and then complain about other people's logic. I don't care why you did it, but I am glad I don't play in the EU because I'd be beyond pissed. Morally gray is not cool, it shows intellectual laziness and a disregard for the rest of society.

Always funny to see people calling exploits whatever they don't agree with. Thanks for dropping by

So this was intended? Keep telling yourself that until the devs delete all your camps and refuse to even give you a refund, which would be the most suitable way to deal with this attempt at bypassing their attempts to improve Cyrodiil.

Going to have to get some popcorn for this one...

Lol. I couldn't give a flying fack if they delete my camps. I'd actually welcome it. If no-one has camps at least it's balanced.

Keep saying to yourself that you know what the devs intended and that everyone who disagrees with you is exploiting. I find it really reinforces your point.

You actually think that the devs intended for players on EU servers only to have a window to buy lots of an item before they removed it from play? Come on...

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Its pretty damn pathetic that people have been hoarding camps on EU server. I still see tons of camps being placed there. The people who have done so are the reason companies, schools, games, forums, etc etc have so many rules and restrictions. People will grab any chance to bypass a dev chance, only to give them the upper hand and be able to win. Be ashamed, seriously.

You've posted the same rubbish on another thread. Before calling people pathetic you need to learn to logic.

Guilds did not stockpile either to outsmart the devs or to gain an advantage. They did it out of necessity to keep an even footing. There will always be someone or some guild that stockpiles camps and the others that don't will be at a huge disadvantage. Hence the only way to achieve balance is for everyone to do the rational thing and stock up. It's Game Theory 101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

With monumental failures of logic like yours, I would refrain from presuming to know what the devs intended. If they didn't want people placing camps they wouldn't have a restriction on deploying camps for players below Alliance Rank 6 only. They would have put that restriction on every single player regardless of rank.

Devs tend to have brains. They obviously knew with a days notice EU would stock up on camps. They also had means to stop people from placing camps but made a decision not to use it. This alone suggests the current situation where we have FCs but they are being placed far more carefully and sporadically is actually intended.

Insult people less and use your brain more pls.

Always funny to see exploiters blame their actions on other exploiters making it necessary, and then complain about other people's logic. I don't care why you did it, but I am glad I don't play in the EU because I'd be beyond pissed. Morally gray is not cool, it shows intellectual laziness and a disregard for the rest of society.

Always funny to see people calling exploits whatever they don't agree with. Thanks for dropping by

So this was intended? Keep telling yourself that until the devs delete all your camps and refuse to even give you a refund, which would be the most suitable way to deal with this attempt at bypassing their attempts to improve Cyrodiil.

Going to have to get some popcorn for this one...

Lol. I couldn't give a flying fack if they delete my camps. I'd actually welcome it. If no-one has camps at least it's balanced.

Keep saying to yourself that you know what the devs intended and that everyone who disagrees with you is exploiting. I find it really reinforces your point.

You actually think that the devs intended for players on EU servers only to have a window to buy lots of an item before they removed it from play? Come on...

Have you bothered reading the thread? Clearly not, so I'm gonna quote some stuff already said.

If they didn't want people placing camps they wouldn't have a restriction on deploying camps for players below Alliance Rank 6 only. They would have put that restriction on every single player regardless of rank.

Devs tend to have brains. They obviously knew with a days notice EU would stock up on camps. They also had means to stop people from placing camps but made a decision not to use it. This alone suggests the current situation where we have FCs but they are being placed far more carefully and sporadically is actually intended.

You might agree or not. I don't care. Fact is they intentionally allowed the placing of camps, when they almost certainly knew EU would stock up.

Besides that, buying forward camps from the vendor with your legitimately earned AP, while it is legitimately sold by the vendor is not an exploit in any shape or form. You need to check up on what an exploit is.

So, what it boils down to is:

The devs knew we would cheat and didn't preempt it, so it is ok. Sorry, but that is just dumb...

More likely, the devs didn't think you would stoop that low...or its just another of ZOS's oversights...but they did not knowingly give EU players the opportunity to buy tons of camps.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Its pretty damn pathetic that people have been hoarding camps on EU server. I still see tons of camps being placed there. The people who have done so are the reason companies, schools, games, forums, etc etc have so many rules and restrictions. People will grab any chance to bypass a dev chance, only to give them the upper hand and be able to win. Be ashamed, seriously.

You've posted the same rubbish on another thread. Before calling people pathetic you need to learn to logic.

Guilds did not stockpile either to outsmart the devs or to gain an advantage. They did it out of necessity to keep an even footing. There will always be someone or some guild that stockpiles camps and the others that don't will be at a huge disadvantage. Hence the only way to achieve balance is for everyone to do the rational thing and stock up. It's Game Theory 101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

With monumental failures of logic like yours, I would refrain from presuming to know what the devs intended. If they didn't want people placing camps they wouldn't have a restriction on deploying camps for players below Alliance Rank 6 only. They would have put that restriction on every single player regardless of rank.

Devs tend to have brains. They obviously knew with a days notice EU would stock up on camps. They also had means to stop people from placing camps but made a decision not to use it. This alone suggests the current situation where we have FCs but they are being placed far more carefully and sporadically is actually intended.

Insult people less and use your brain more pls.

Always funny to see exploiters blame their actions on other exploiters making it necessary, and then complain about other people's logic. I don't care why you did it, but I am glad I don't play in the EU because I'd be beyond pissed. Morally gray is not cool, it shows intellectual laziness and a disregard for the rest of society.

Always funny to see people calling exploits whatever they don't agree with. Thanks for dropping by

So this was intended? Keep telling yourself that until the devs delete all your camps and refuse to even give you a refund, which would be the most suitable way to deal with this attempt at bypassing their attempts to improve Cyrodiil.

Going to have to get some popcorn for this one...

Lol. I couldn't give a flying fack if they delete my camps. I'd actually welcome it. If no-one has camps at least it's balanced.

Keep saying to yourself that you know what the devs intended and that everyone who disagrees with you is exploiting. I find it really reinforces your point.

You actually think that the devs intended for players on EU servers only to have a window to buy lots of an item before they removed it from play? Come on...

Have you bothered reading the thread? Clearly not, so I'm gonna quote some stuff already said.

If they didn't want people placing camps they wouldn't have a restriction on deploying camps for players below Alliance Rank 6 only. They would have put that restriction on every single player regardless of rank.

Devs tend to have brains. They obviously knew with a days notice EU would stock up on camps. They also had means to stop people from placing camps but made a decision not to use it. This alone suggests the current situation where we have FCs but they are being placed far more carefully and sporadically is actually intended.

You might agree or not. I don't care. Fact is they intentionally allowed the placing of camps, when they almost certainly knew EU would stock up.

Besides that, buying forward camps from the vendor with your legitimately earned AP, while it is legitimately sold by the vendor is not an exploit in any shape or form. You need to check up on what an exploit is.

So, what it boils down to is:

The devs new we would cheat and didn't preempt it, so it is ok. Sorry, but that is just dumb...

More likely, the devs didn't think you would stoop that low...or its just another of ZOS's oversights...but they did not knowingly give EU players the opportunity to buy tons of camps.

Again, stop arguing that you know what the devs intention was and what it wasn't. You have no idea.

No point arguing with you. If you think buying camps from the vendor is cheating we're on another planet altogether. Enjoy your angry raving, from you moral high ground built on delusion. Cheerio

Not really angry about this, since it fortunately doesn't affect me. You will likely get your answer from ZOS in the next few days though, as the complaints roll in from those who were hoping the removal of these camps would improve PvP, as it has in NA. I hope you will be very proud that your actions helped drive more players from the game...

Removing FCs is a good change wether people like it or not.

However, it isn't pissing off a "large majority" of players.
I've seen two polls regarding this issue, one had 68% happy, the other 53%.
Those kind of polls are usualy biased towards the unhappy people, as happy people don't come on forums, so this says a lot about how popular this change has been.

But again, polls are irelevant to game design. It's engineering, not democracy.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Removing FCs is a good change wether people like it or not.

However, it isn't pissing off a "large majority" of players.
I've seen two polls regarding this issue, one had 68% happy, the other 53%.
Those kind of polls are usualy biased towards the unhappy people, as happy people don't come on forums, so this says a lot about how popular this change has been.

But again, polls are irelevant to game design. It's engineering, not democracy.

Firstly, one of the polls was made the day the patch went live and the other the day after. The impact had not been assessed at the time at all and to be fair won't be fully assessed until we've played a good few weeks of this.

Secondly, the thing about the polls biased towards unhappy rings true. But the unhappy people we the ones that have been screaming for camps to be removed for a while. So they poured in to show their support and relief. The "no campaign" would not create so strong emotions because pretty much everyone who wanted camps, also acknowledged changes were definitely need. So the attitude of most was "meh, let's try this".

I also don't think polls are relevant, but subscriptions definitely are. We'll see how this plays out. I'm expecting some form of reversal from the current state of complete removal.

Exactly my point, polls are inacurate and mostly useless. Either in timing or in population selection process.
And they don't matter either ways as people don't know what is good for them.

If someone was to unsubscribe over this one change without trying it out, it means they aren't part of the core audience for the game and aren't invested enough to "deserve" a say.
We didn't subscribe throughout the months where camp existed in a broken state or with the target cap reveal. Instead, we made constructive arguments.
Treatening to unsub is the lowest form of communciation.
The devs should not catter to those people but try to design mechanics and systems that have the best value in game design.
Or simply follow common sense.

What is more engaging? What challenges the players the most? What "skill tests" variation is presented to the players? What content can be repeated for years without getting stale?
All these questions are what matter.
What is "convenient" comes last, as a matter of polish.
You can have an unpolished game with a soul outlast any polished clone.

An unpopular, albeit needed change will have far better long term consequences than being focused on the "now" and the opinion of forums.

(for what is worth, my opinion is that removing FCs was rash, but the best decision in the end.
I was more in favor of fixing the spawn radius of camps and adding a destructible "spawn altar" in keeps courtyard to put defenders on a foot of equality with attackers. But it was a weak compromise, and what we have now, no camps, is much better.)