Guild Traders - Bid History Exploit

Focus23 · August 2014

Guild history displays the exact kiosk bid and location on the guild history tab where any member may view it. This has encouraged numerous players to seek out invitations to guilds with malicious intent. These players have been exploiting the open bid history to insure their ability to win a kiosk each week by spying on bid amounts of infiltrated guilds and then outbidding them last minute.

This has forced guildmasters to make sure they are online at 7:59am EST each Monday to have bidding wars with other guilds against the clock in order to secure a guild trader. It has led to major distrust within guild communities causing some to shut down recruiting toward the end of the week and some to even remove players by the dozen for being involved with guilds known to contain spies.

I, myself, am hesitant to even let new officers know the exact location, time of placement, and amount of bid for fear of moles from other guilds. People could easily be paid off. Trade guild leaders have been under duress as they struggle to prevent treason and combat corporate espionage.

Was this intended or should I report it as a bug?

I think the following proposed solutions are the most feasible.

1. The bid history displays only for members that have permissions to hire guild traders.
2. The bid history displays for members only after a kiosk is won.

nudel · August 2014

You should not be so distrustful of your officers. If you cannot trust your officers with information like the location of a bid then you promoted the wrong people.

As for the rest, I'm a bit torn. I understand the feeling that you want this bid to be hidden from your guild as much as possible in case of spies. However, its presence on the history tab shows that you didn't just embezzle all the gold in the bank. Excellent for transparency and building trust with your core members. Terrible of course in the case of spies.

If you're really concerned about spies, you have two options.

A) Don't bid until the last moment before bidding ends. [Risky]

Sink it in the history by moving things around in the bank.

Focus23 · August 2014

You have a point about letting members know that the money isn't being embezzled, but if the gold ended up disappearing and kiosks weren't being won then it would be found out pretty quickly I would think. I trust my guild officers, but you never know. I'd rather be safe than sorry. We're a huge trade guild that networks with 6 other full trade guilds and we're making our way up to Rawl'kha so I have to play it as safe as I can.

Yeah, my best solution was to wait until the fewest amount of players were online, place the bid, and then restack the bank to hide it. That's what I'll have to do for now if I want to play it safe.

Mountain_Dewed · September 2014

This is still view-able in guild tab, any chance on being fixed? I apologize if it has been addressed elsewhere but I couldn't find it...

Phat_Clowns · November 2014

This seems like something that developers may have overlooked. Honestly, it seems like a pretty glaring issue, something that ZeniMax really needs to fix (it's a pretty easy fix, I would assume).

I can completely understand why caution would be exercised in this instance, and I've heard about this issue from multiple people. It's caused some pretty serious strife between guilds, and isn't a necessary addition to the guild feature.

ZOS; please fix this!!

GrooverGabe · November 2014

As I believe i have been sniped before myself, or had moles, as well as asked members to find out info for market research (very tempting to use but didn't). Its very easy to find even if buried by a restack or 2. And the spy and espionage issue while intriguing is very stressful and would hope, this sort of "play" wasn't being encouraged by the devs. Not only if you have a mole problem do you have to wait until last minute to bid but then you have to wait through 2-3 hour maintenance, win or lose, and if you lose, run a tizzy all over Tamriel trying to land a decent spot for your guildies so they don't accuse you of not providing them w/ a sales outlet/Trader.

KeplerMG · November 2014

I agree, something needs to be done about this. Something ingenious like the character delete limitations that fixed the bot problem.

ZOS_LenaicR · November 2014

Hi guys and thank you for reaching us,

We are aware of this issue, our teams are already working on it and a fix should be available in a future patch, soon.
We appreciate your help.

Have a lovely day in Tamriel!

Axie · November 2014

It is always a culture-shock for an EVE Online player to see what people here percieve as 'a problem' or worse 'an exploit'.

redspecter23 · November 2014

GrooverGabe wrote: »

As I believe i have been sniped before myself, or had moles, as well as asked members to find out info for market research (very tempting to use but didn't). Its very easy to find even if buried by a restack or 2. And the spy and espionage issue while intriguing is very stressful and would hope, this sort of "play" wasn't being encouraged by the devs. Not only if you have a mole problem do you have to wait until last minute to bid but then you have to wait through 2-3 hour maintenance, win or lose, and if you lose, run a tizzy all over Tamriel trying to land a decent spot for your guildies so they don't accuse you of not providing them w/ a sales outlet/Trader.

I agree. As a trade guild GM, I find it incredibly stressful to do exactly this. Ensure that I get up early on Monday morning to place my bid at the last possible minute so that spies don't snipe and even after that you have to stay in front of the computer pretty much the whole time so that you're ready when it comes back up to try and find a 100g trader for your guild if you lost. Any "Monday Maintenance" day is sure to have me glued to the computer for up to 5 or 6 hours because I want to do my best to get a trader for my guild.

Is there any way you can move the guild trader swap day to one that isn't also maintenance day? In addition, how about raising the min buyout price over 100g? Guilds with 0 listings snatch up 100g spots because, why not? It's no real loss to them. I say kiosks in the outskirts should be 1k min, cities, 5k min and capital cities, 10k min buyouts to discourage horrible guilds from setting up shop for a week.

GM's should not be put into positions like this causing massive amounts of stress and eating up time we could be doing other things... like sleeping.

Focus23 · November 2014

Thank you for the response, @ZOS_LenaicR. You've helped to put my mind at ease. I'll keep an eye on the patch notes.

BatOutta · November 2014

While we're on the subject of Kiosks, let's keep going!

Seeing the bid info before Mondays is definitely a problem.

You know what else I don't like?

An in-game mafia guild created by the Rawl'kha mega-shops dedicated to 'ending' the blind-bidding system ESO created, with some jaw-dropping rules like:

~ guilds in your "club" are ASSIGNED a kiosk and FORBIDDEN to leave that kiosk without permission in advance from YOU. This is being spun as "get your own permanent kiosk". To quote the e-surance commericals, "That's not how it works".

~ guilds in your "club" cannot bid against ANYONE ELSE in your club and if they dare to, that means "WAR" and they will be "BLACKBALLED"

~ if an outside guild bids against you, that means "WAR" and they will be "BLACKBALLED". Direct quote from a Rawl Guild Chat: "No guild would be stupid enough to bid against us in Rawl and if they did, it would mean war"

~ you complain about spies but the only way you'd be sure about the things you are saying is if you engaged in it personally. While concealing bid info until the transaction is completed is a great idea, really, what is the worst that could happen? You lose a kiosk for a week? ZOMG!

~ Outside guilds (and even members who don't realize they can look this info up) are being led to believe that 7 figures+ is being paid for Rawl Kiosks. The truth is that there are Kiosks in Rawl that regularly go for 170k-250k every week. One Rawl guild sent out an e-mail calling its members leeches if they didn't contribute more to support the "Up to 1.3 Million" bids, when in reality, they pay well under 1/2 that amount every week lol. It took me about 3 seconds to hit the quit button lol.

Most of the Rawl kiosks NEVER change hands because of lies, threats and intimidation.

~ Rawl guilds LOVE to brag about their "millions" of gold, but where is it? Certainly not in the guild bank! Members in any large trade guild should do some basic math now and then. Sales Tax + Contest income - Prize Gold SHOULD equal bank balance. In many of the 'big' guilds, there is a GIGANTIC disparity between gold that comes in and gold that gets spent on kiosks and contests. Those middle of the night withdrawals are very telling.

Not accusing any of this of breaking the terms of service. But let's at least be truthful about what you are doing and why:

100% of this is aimed at making sure that the Rawl Kiosks (and other popular hubs) never, ever change hands and are secured as cheaply as possible by leading the rest of the server to believe they are too expensive or the consequences will be too big if they dare. Any good-sized guild that might pose a threat is recruited into the mafia and then forbidden to bid on Rawl.

Brilliant plan. Really, it is. Hats off.

Whether or not it works in the long-term is really up to other Trade Guilds having the testicular fortitude to create real competition in Rawl and other hubs instead of letting the Kiosk Mafia run it all.

I can tell you this, I'm having none of it. You've been warned. See you in Rawl real soon!

kasteen · November 2014

It's their $15/month to play the way they want.

timidobserver · November 2014

ZOS_LenaicR wrote: »

Hi guys and thank you for reaching us,

We are aware of this issue, our teams are already working on it and a fix should be available in a future patch, soon.
We appreciate your help.

Have a lovely day in Tamriel!

Honestly, this should have gone in with 1.5. Spies in the guild should not be allowed to be become thing even for 5 minutes.

Anslay · November 2014

I sincerely hope to see this in the patch notes soon as the current system creates much strain for those of us trying to do the right thing for our guild week after week. I, as I believe any guild leader should do, work to keep our bid very competitive for the area to ensure that we maintain our kiosk. The concern for bid sniping is something that we should never have to deal with and I look forward to this element of the trader guild world removed.

calia1120 · November 2014

wow Bat, bitter much?

Focus23 · November 2014

I've heard the Rawl kiosks referred to as Rawl Mall and Rawl-Mart, but the Rawl'kha mafia is certainly a new one. Rest assured, Rawl guilds are not in some secret conspiracy guild out to "blackball" other guilds who try to bid at their kiosks. I can't speak for others but my guild has never gone around initiating conflict with other guilds.

Thank you, Bat, for offering your single statement on the viewable bid history. I apologize for any misunderstanding you have about us. It doesn't make me happy that you felt the need to troll us on the public forum with shameful accusations and ridicule.

BatOutta · November 2014

Thanks for your reply addressing 1/2 of one point made in my post.

I assume your lack of response to the rest means you aren't denying any of it?

And even your reply is false. At least 2 guilds have already been blackballed by the Rawl Mafia. (and by blackballed I mean members having a gun put to their head and forced to choose between the Mafia guilds or the blackballed one)

Not trolling when it's true!

ElfFromSpace · November 2014

So,Bat, are you implying that guilds should just keep spies inside of their guilds when those spies are DELIBERATELY sabotaging their guild? A PVP guild won't keep a spy who is sabotaging their battle plans. Players want to work together with players who have similar goals and understand the value of teamwork. That's what MMOs are about

thebeater72 · November 2014

I am curious as I would assume many others are, what do you mean by "gun to their head and forced"

BatOutta · November 2014

Nope, I'm not implying that at all. Please actually read what I posted.

I'm talking about regular members who happen to be in the Mafia Guilds AND a blackballed guild - being told to quit the blackballed guild or be booted from the Mafia guilds.

I pointed out many things the Rawl Mafia is doing. Fascinating that you are choosing to argue just this one thing - badly.

calia1120 · November 2014

Bat, are you saying that your guild doesn't take precautions against people who might be looking to gather information as to your means? If you knew of a guild that was reputed to spy on bids, would you want them to have access to any information by way of having common members?

Guild money fluctuates. As for withdrawals, what about guild money used to purchase prizes for raffles and such? If a guild has withdrawal permissions on their bank, they're not going to keep prizes in there where any member could withdraw them. It's unreasonable to expect that this all be itemized; it's simply not feasible with the bank structure, nor is it even necessary. If a guild has faith in their leaders, they shouldn't have to be concerned with it. Bottom line, if you don't trust the leadership, why would you bother staying with a guild? You're not being forced to stay.

This insinuation towards traders in Rawl is just plain rude. It's not unheard of for guild leaders to communicate with each other, especially in the case of unscrupulous players; if anything the communication helps improve the trading community.

redspecter23 · November 2014

BatOutta wrote: »

I'm talking about regular members who happen to be in the Mafia Guilds AND a blackballed guild - being told to quit the blackballed guild or be booted from the Mafia guilds.

How is a GM to know that a member that is in both guilds is a spy or not? If a member is in both guilds, one may have to make the hard choice to boot them for safety. Yes, this sucks. A better solution might be to approach that member beforehand (not with a gun to the head) and explain the situation. If there is a potential spy problem, they may very well choose to leave one guild or the other.

I think this is the root of the issue with the visible bid history. Once that loophole is closed up, spies become much less of an issue. I put this mainly on the horrible user interface and the decision to include bids in the history more than GM's that are just being overly cautious with their guild security.

thebeater72 · November 2014

BatOutta wrote: »

Thanks for your reply addressing 1/2 of one point made in my post.

I assume your lack of response to the rest means you aren't denying any of it?

And even your reply is false. At least 2 guilds have already been blackballed by the Rawl Mafia. (and by blackballed I mean members having a gun put to their head and forced to choose between the Mafia guilds or the blackballed one)

Not trolling when it's true!

"gun put to their head and forced"

BatOutta · November 2014

Wow, so much deflection without addressing actual points.

Re-read my post again. It says Sales Tax + Contest Money - Prizes should equal the bank balance. These guild leaders routinely brag about having "millions" but that gold sure isn't in most of the guild banks, is it? And then there's the middle of the night 6 figure withdrawals that have nothing to do with contesting.

I'm not insinuating anything, I'm quoting truth.

It's one thing to root out spies, it's another thing to go through the entire guild list of a guild you don't like, note every single player in common and then tell every one of them to drop the other guild or be booted.

Communication is one thing. Inviting guilds into the mafia, then informing them they aren't allowed to bid against any other mafia guilds (especially rawl) or there will be consequences is a very different thing.

I'll say it again: this guild mafia exists so that Rawl guilds can protect their Rawl kiosks with deceit and intimidation. The intention is a blind bidding system where highest bidder wins, not for anyone to have a guaranteed permanent kiosk or to declare war on anyone who dares to bid against them.

Edited by Moderator ZOS_MichaelM: Some information was removed from this thread, as it was not in line with our policy on Naming-and-Shaming.

thebeater72 · November 2014

thebeater72 wrote: »

BatOutta wrote: »

Thanks for your reply addressing 1/2 of one point made in my post.

I assume your lack of response to the rest means you aren't denying any of it?

And even your reply is false. At least 2 guilds have already been blackballed by the Rawl Mafia. (and by blackballed I mean members having a gun put to their head and forced to choose between the Mafia guilds or the blackballed one)

Not trolling when it's true!

"gun put to their head and forced"

Kvasir Silverpaw · November 2014

This is a TERRIBLE oversight by the devs. This should be changed immediately. Only the Guild Leader should know what exactly his/her bid was/is. On a side note....is Obama on the dev team? Sounds like this is right up his alley.

Kvasir Silverpaw · November 2014

BatOutta wrote: »

Wow, so much deflection without addressing actual points.

Re-read my post again. It says Sales Tax + Contest Money - Prizes should equal the bank balance. These guild leaders routinely brag about having "millions" but that gold sure isn't in most of the guild banks, is it? And then there's the middle of the night 6 figure withdrawals that have nothing to do with contesting.

I'm not insinuating anything, I'm quoting truth.

It's one thing to root out spies, it's another thing to go through the entire guild list of a guild you don't like, note every single player in common and then tell every one of them to drop the other guild or be booted.

Communication is one thing. Inviting guilds into the mafia, then informing them they aren't allowed to bid against any other mafia guilds (especially rawl) or there will be consequences is a very different thing.

I'll say it again: this guild mafia exists so that Rawl guilds can protect their Rawl kiosks with deceit and intimidation. The intention is a blind bidding system where highest bidder wins, not for anyone to have a guaranteed permanent kiosk or to declare war on anyone who dares to bid against them.

Oh..and FYI...for those considering Rawl bids, one went for under 135,000 this week and 2 went for under 325,000. It's not as expensive as they'd have you believe lol. The guilds raking in the most cash are spending some of the lowest prices for any major city, let alone Rawl. Happy Bidding.

Wow, you suck.

Kvasir Silverpaw · November 2014

ZOS_LenaicR wrote: »

Hi guys and thank you for reaching us,

We are aware of this issue, our teams are already working on it and a fix should be available in a future patch, soon.
We appreciate your help.

Have a lovely day in Tamriel!

You sir, are to be commended.

Arato · November 2014

BatOutta wrote: »

Wow, so much deflection without addressing actual points.

Re-read my post again. It says Sales Tax + Contest Money - Prizes should equal the bank balance. These guild leaders routinely brag about having "millions" but that gold sure isn't in most of the guild banks, is it? And then there's the middle of the night 6 figure withdrawals that have nothing to do with contesting.

When successful trade guilds talk about their "millions in sales" they're not talking about the money in the bank. They're talking about millions of gold earned amongst their members. Remember, trade guild members are there to make gold for themselves. Trade guilds are an outlet for them to make money with, as well as buy things they may need themselves, and network with other traders to make money.

GM's of trading guilds are advertising the success of their members, not the size of their guild vault.

ElfFromSpace · November 2014

The only reason that Bat-Crazy is so worried about the gold belonging to other guilds that aren't any of his business is because he's jealous that his own guild has no-where near that much and he's sore that he can't spy on some guild's bank balances.
Big trading guilds have to constantly replenish members and always run a risk of having spies. Even if the bid history is hidden, spies could calculate the amount by looking at the bank balances. For that reason, some guild leaders probably hide a portion of the guild's gold elsewhere. As long as the members get the stalls they need to sell, get the prizes they're promised from raffles, trust is upheld. The HOW is none of your business.
The fight over guild stalls is a battle of no less importance to the game than the keeps in Cyrodil, and comes with a similar need for secrecy. Please, Zenimax, end the drama by not allowing spies to see the amounts in a BLIND bid... and tastelessly post those amounts in a public forum.