So, About That Dungeon Scaling

itsBishop · November 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Could also be a rather hefty issue with DKs and what I'm assuming was a staff being just that op and that this game is pretty much a zerg fest.

If by zerg fest you mean using aoe when aoe is required to clear content (adds and/or trash) then yes, I suppose it is a zerg fest. No one is using aoe on single target boss fights.

Elsonso · November 2014

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

Elf_Boy wrote: »

Be nice if there were a difficulty slider somewhere.

There is but you just cannot control it. The more you get your behind wooped the easier it should get. However I have not heard anyone testing this mechanics.

Yesterday one of my characters died FOURTEEN times before I quit trying.

At no time did the fight become any easier.

The mechanic did not work.

It's Doshia all over again [at release].

I think it only works in SOLO instances. For Doshia, it would work fine. In a public dungeon, I do not think it works that way.

My test was in a solo instance. I can assure you that it does, in fact, work.

Drazhar14 wrote: »

Dungeon scaling is one of the worst design decisions they have made so far. The whole point of leveling up is to get more powerful in order to beat content you could not previously. If that content levels up with you, what is the point of even leveling your character?!

Repeatability. It allows you to face the instance when AT LEVEL and have it be at or near the difficulty that is intended and then come back in 10 levels and not have it be a cakewalk.

It is not a bad design decision. It is a necessary design decision that they need to tweak and tune.

In Oblivion, this scaling was bad and properly fixed in Skyrim. However, these games are not intended to continue on like an MMO does. Repeatability is an easy way to get more use out of a limit amount of content.

Aeratus · November 2014

The new vet dungeons are fine. Previously, the vet dungeons were so easy that you practically just steamrolled through them in 10 mins.

Now the dungeons are finally legitimately challenging content. They are not too hard. For example, not comparable to the later levels in vet DSA.

Blade_07 · November 2014

Yes, agree with the poster that bosses have been made much harder! >..>

Cazic · November 2014

I would agree, bosses seem harder now.

I was running Direfrost last night with a group of 3 (not expecting to get that far). We were VR 1,2 and 3. Leader was VR2 so the dungeon scaled to that. The first boss just plowed us over dealing 1000+ damage, didn't stand a chance. If we had a full group it may have been possible, but still seemed overly difficult. I was tanking, and we did have a healer - went down in 3 hits.

Shunravi · November 2014

Cazic wrote: »

I would agree, bosses seem harder now.

I was running Direfrost last night with a group of 3 (not expecting to get that far). We were VR 1,2 and 3. Leader was VR2 so the dungeon scaled to that. The first boss just plowed us over dealing 1000+ damage, didn't stand a chance. If we had a full group it may have been possible, but still seemed overly difficult. I was tanking, and we did have a healer - went down in 3 hits.

In direfrost, you need to kite the troll boss arround the room to avoid his storm aura. You also need to watch for when he leaps at you, because if he gets you, you are in trouble.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · November 2014

Agree with OP. Scaling needs considerable adjustment.

Cazic · November 2014

Shunravi wrote: »

Cazic wrote: »

I would agree, bosses seem harder now.

I was running Direfrost last night with a group of 3 (not expecting to get that far). We were VR 1,2 and 3. Leader was VR2 so the dungeon scaled to that. The first boss just plowed us over dealing 1000+ damage, didn't stand a chance. If we had a full group it may have been possible, but still seemed overly difficult. I was tanking, and we did have a healer - went down in 3 hits.

In direfrost, you need to kite the troll boss arround the room to avoid his storm aura. You also need to watch for when he leaps at you, because if he gets you, you are in trouble.

Okay yeah, that makes sense. I did kill him later with another group, just thought he seemed overly difficult the first time around.

Xjcon · November 2014

The pledge quest is fun. BC was hard it's not pug friendly. The mistakes people took for granted before are showing up now. I think it will get a nerf in time as the devs want the trials players to have a challenge awhile.

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

itsBishop wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Could also be a rather hefty issue with DKs and what I'm assuming was a staff being just that op and that this game is pretty much a zerg fest.

If by zerg fest you mean using aoe when aoe is required to clear content (adds and/or trash) then yes, I suppose it is a zerg fest. No one is using aoe on single target boss fights.

The problem there is that there's no trade off between the mighty AoE capability of a staff and the powerful single target of a stamina, because the staff can do both. Of course you won't be using AoE staff skills for the boss itself, but you don't need to, you'll just use crushing shock or whatever else suits you from your class skill selection, and switch bars for the full on AoE if you really desire it.

Stamina Build AoE is paltry in comparison, even with Ultimates and Whirlwind. It's weak, and doesn't compare, so I return to my statement that perhaps Stick and Dress Builds are still quite far ahead in terms of viability as compared to Leather and Melee.

Amsel_McKay · November 2014

"In Oblivion, this scaling was bad and properly fixed in Skyrim" HOW was it better in Skyrim I could go to any location in Skyrim at level 2 and everything would be level 2, when I got to level 50 everything would be level 50.. It makes the game boring and the items also level by your level which is stupid. If I want to challenge myself I go to a "hard" place and get better rewards and be more powerful for my level because of gear... that is why EQ was such a great game the better loot with harder challenge... The problem with ESO is I feel the same level 1 to v14 because of scaling..

Xsorus · November 2014

I was annoyed by the fact that Imiril and the Last boss of BC basically ignored blocking making tanking her completely pointless

eliisra · November 2014

So yeah, the whole world has the exact same computer model, internet provider, physique, level of skill and gaming equipment(and bladder). Therefore every wipe in a scaled VR dungeons is clearly a L2P issue

Seriously though, scaling definitely needs toning down a bit.

I did clear VR BC and Elden Hollow for daily quests. Was pretty hard, used loads of Tri-stats, few Soul Gems and got fairly stressed out at times. But that was with a guild group, decent players, geared VR14, right class- and skill setup and of course using TS.

That's not what you're getting running it with a PUG or any LFG. I just cant see any random group being able to finish any scaled VR dungeon and doing the HM for gold key.

Yes, it's fun when the games bites back a bit, I understand the guys looking for difficulty. But please be fair, daily grind quests should be doable for everyone including shaky pugs.

Scaled normal dungeons seems pretty well scaled however. Perfectly doable with most group.

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

The normal ones are great if everybody brings their A Game. They're hard, but so doable if you know what you're doing, and allow for a little bit of flexibility; exactly how it should be.

The vet ones on the other hand, while I will stand firmly by the belief that if you wear heavy armor and use a sword and shield to DPS, I am going look at you like you have six heads and *** for noses. If you bring your A Game and still have trouble, I won't look at you with six heads but rather consider within the realm of possibility that the game itself might be a bit busted.

EDIT* Forgot to mention this part. Yes, it should be hard, god damn it, it needs to be hard, but it also needs to be fun and doable, and the reward needs to match the risk.

Alphashado · November 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

EDIT* Forgot to mention this part. Yes, it should be hard, god damn it, it needs to be hard, but it also needs to be fun and doable, and the reward needs to match the risk.

This sums up the VR pledge issue in a nutshell.

However I think the Normal scaled versions need to be toned down. Especially considering the reward. I've said it before, but they should be along the same challenge level as the Craglorn 4 man dungeons. The entire concept of a normal version with a lesser reward is to stimulate interest from casual gamers so they can gain entry level gear and the dungeon experience needed to move up into more challenging content if they are interested.

Holycannoli · November 2014

I will be cancelling my sub now. I was against this the minute they announced it. I'm bored with the game as it is and barely log on once a week, I do not want forced solo scaling on top of that boredom. I thought solo content was fine before scaling and I'm too casual a gamer now to bother with forced difficulty when I'm trying to overlevel to limit the difficulty. Don't want to play it, don't want to pay for it.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · November 2014

We want to thank everyone for the feedback regarding the changes to the dungeon scaling we implemented in Update 5. We've read your concerns and are taking a very close look at how these changes have impacted difficulty for both groups and solo players. Thank you all for your patience—we’ll keep you updated.

Yonkit · November 2014

Love the change in difficulty! Went through two days of undaunted challenges without a wipe, but still had to pay attention and put forth some effort (which is the main change that I wanted).

So far I've just been playing with other guildies and we normally coast through basic content, but I'm going to start doing some pugging in the next couple days to try and help people out with the challenges. If anyone is looking for a group (DC/NA) to work these out, let me know @yonkit.

Elsonso · November 2014

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

"In Oblivion, this scaling was bad and properly fixed in Skyrim" HOW was it better in Skyrim I could go to any location in Skyrim at level 2 and everything would be level 2, when I got to level 50 everything would be level 50.. It makes the game boring and the items also level by your level which is stupid. If I want to challenge myself I go to a "hard" place and get better rewards and be more powerful for my level because of gear... that is why EQ was such a great game the better loot with harder challenge... The problem with ESO is I feel the same level 1 to v14 because of scaling..

In Oblivion, the monsters seen in dungeons and out in the wild were determined by the leveled list entry that matched your level. As you progressed up, the monsters would be replaced by new, more powerful, monsters and you never saw the old ones again. Ever wonder where all the wolves and timber wolves went to? Ever wonder why every goblin in the goblin den was a warlord?

Skyrim changed that. They did not scale every monster to your level as you moved through the world.

If ZOS is going to get people to play for more than the 100 hours or so that it takes to get through the content, then they have to come up with ways to get people to reuse the existing content. They certainly are not rolling out new dungeons and delves, they are busy remaking them. Scaling allows players to re-enter old content that they have played before and have the monsters scale up. High level characters going through old content will get no challenge and no reward for their efforts. Scaling allows for both.

Eventually, I hope they will put the dungeon/delve rework team on creating new dungeons and new delves for the existing zones, but until they can create deep new content (more so than Craglorn) they will have to reuse existing dungeon content.

Regarding solo scaling, I did not like it because I don't like forced solo content. I tend to want to just do it and get it over with. Thus, I wait until I am way over level and just blow through it.

I have changed my mind on this point. It is important that when I go back and do these quests that the associated instances are scaled to me. I was short changing myself by postponing this content.

What I now disagree with is the fail safe scaling down of solo instances. I think that there needs to be a mechanism to ensure that everyone can complete the content. It is supposed to be a game, after all, and games are supposed to be fun, not frustrating. Dying repeatedly is not fun, and this seems to be what is required to get the instance to scale down.

Making matters worse, the scale down is too easy to exploit. They need to take the bigger picture approach and watch your game play ALL THE TIME, not just when you encounter something that kills you 10 times. If they are going to scale down, or even scale up, they need to take into account your long term capability.

They need a different way to handle this.

Ageless · November 2014

I get it that the group dungeons may have needed this kind of leveling, because eventually you were strong enough that you could just walk in solo and do such a dungeon.

But that they then needed to do this on the Guild quests as well, I don't get. I was just wiped and wiped in Circus of Cheerful Slaughter by one of the end bosses (Kurog gro-Orsinium). He's throwing down Ultimate after Ultimate, while yours is spent and since you die every time, you have no way to charge it either. And even if you manage to fight through here, then you have the second end-boss to kick your behind. Apparently you need to keep being cheerful about it as well.

I have 3 more 60 day game cards lying here, but don't think I'll be using them too soon. Got enough credit to bridge it to the 18th of November, to go Far Cry 4. Then when that's finished, I may return with a game card and check again (waiting until GTA 5 is released on PC in January 2015). Thank you for taking the fun out of my playing.

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

......can I get a card? I'm flat broke XD

JessieColt · November 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We want to thank everyone for the feedback regarding the changes to the dungeon scaling we implemented in Update 5. We've read your concerns and are taking a very close look at how these changes have impacted difficulty for both groups and solo players. Thank you all for your patience—we’ll keep you updated.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

I call snow-job. "We made them mad, see if you can shut them up and we will try to come up with something to deal with their anger without undoing the changes."

Dungeon scaling should never have been a forced change to the way things work. It should have been added as an optional. Normal / Vet / Scaled.

People looking for 'End-Game' content could then group up and hit all of the lower level dungeons and vet dungeons as Scaled for harder challenges and better loot without impacting the rest of the player base.

Normal dungeons no longer exist. Vet dungeons no longer exist, even though this patch allegedly released a new vet level dungeon.

What was the point in releasing a "vet level" dungeon if, by default, every dungeon is Vet Level if you are VR1 and over?

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

This isn't sarcasm when I say this, but they are in the middle of abolishing the very system, and there is that champion system coming out soon. Probably has something to do with the sudden lack of options settings

ArcaneBlue · November 2014

just completed REGULAR spindle and banished cells with a group of lvl 26, 17, 16 and 15. the leader was myself, a lvl 16 DPS.

I've run those dungeons numerous times with other characters and hardly had any problem but today, we wiped 4 times total. one of us was a rather new player but the rest have been playing since the launch. while we might not be "hardcore" or "pros" we surely do know what we are/were doing.
(I am NOT asking for boss nerf)

I don't mind challenges but many, including myself, find this scaling distasteful.

JessieColt wrote: »

Dungeon scaling should never have been a forced change to the way things work. It should have been added as an optional. Normal / Vet / Scaled.

^ this, I like.

TLDR the dungeon bosses feel tougher than before and many people including myself find this forced scaling distasteful.

Ragefist · November 2014

Holycannoli wrote: »

I will be cancelling my sub now. I was against this the minute they announced it. I'm bored with the game as it is and barely log on once a week, I do not want forced solo scaling on top of that boredom. I thought solo content was fine before scaling and I'm too casual a gamer now to bother with forced difficulty when I'm trying to overlevel to limit the difficulty. Don't want to play it, don't want to pay for it.

Can I have your stuff please? I mostly need tailoring mats, but anything else is welcome

ExiledKhallisi · November 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We want to thank everyone for the feedback regarding the changes to the dungeon scaling we implemented in Update 5. We've read your concerns and are taking a very close look at how these changes have impacted difficulty for both groups and solo players. Thank you all for your patience—we’ll keep you updated.

Why is your logic: "Lets buff a lot of builds based around stamina to make them more on par but at the same time secretly buff all pve content to make the buffs near useless. Getting hit for 4000 unblockable damage by Darkroot in Veteran Elden Hollow. The boss also has 160,000 Health. Which is ridiculous for a 4 man group.

Everyone likes ice cream....but a bowl of ice cream with a speck of s*** in it is still ice cream with s*** in it.

Holycannoli · November 2014

JessieColt wrote: »

Dungeon scaling should never have been a forced change to the way things work. It should have been added as an optional. Normal / Vet / Scaled.

Yep I said that almost a month ago, only for solo instances: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/135749/i-dont-like-solo-instances-forced-to-scale-up-from-update-5-pts-notes/p1

Why they ignored the suggestions to make it optional is beyond me but I'm not at all happy. Making it optional would have made everyone happy.

SteveCampsOut · November 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We want to thank everyone for the feedback regarding the changes to the dungeon scaling we implemented in Update 5. We've read your concerns and are taking a very close look at how these changes have impacted difficulty for both groups and solo players. Thank you all for your patience—we’ll keep you updated.

You've pretty much killed a lot of Casual's desire to resubscribe. I'm switching to monthly just to give you a chance to fix it.

SlayerSyrena · November 2014

I was super excited about the Undaunted pledges but, after trying a non-vet dungeon and getting wiped repeatedly at the first boss (even with very experienced players in the group) I'm rather depressed by it all. :C

After about an hour of this we eventually just gave up.

cote-bmsb16_ESO · November 2014

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We want to thank everyone for the feedback regarding the changes to the dungeon scaling we implemented in Update 5. We've read your concerns and are taking a very close look at how these changes have impacted difficulty for both groups and solo players. Thank you all for your patience—we’ll keep you updated.

You've pretty much killed a lot of Casual's desire to resubscribe. I'm switching to monthly just to give you a chance to fix it.

I'm also considering the fact that there are no Dragons in this Age. Where are the dovakin?