5 Reasons Why Removal of Forward Camps Will Save PvP in ESO

Lfehova · November 2014

Lettigall wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

During beta, and for the first few weeks of launch when FCs didnt work, that was the best PVP Ive seen in ESO. FC spam ruined Cyrodiil. For all the reasons that have been stated over and over on this forum. I have no need to wait 1-2 weeks to judge

I was in beta too and in beta there weren't so many players and everyone was still learning best tactics. And trust me raid of today's 20 people would wipe entire alliance in beta times. And for first weeks of launch I have only bad memories, when 1 DK vamp could kill entire raid without breaking a sweat, bad times.

Lfehova wrote: »

You're making some crazy assumption that small scale fights will happen at keeps or scrolls. They won't.
But small scale fights will likely happen with regularity along travel lines.

Actually I meant fights on the way to keep or resource. And without FC how do you think trains will travel and what other trains gonna try to do with them? Travel lines gonna be so dangerous that small groups will simply die by even smaller groups. In first weeks raiding alone(if you had a horse) or running alone to keep was certain death.

Forget about beta or first weeks of ESO and even forget today's tactics. With new patch new rules in PvP!

Absolutely. And how annoying will it be when the trains are trying to regroup but most of them are still alive. That single target build pug will wreck that train aoe build guy riding back to the front lines.

Give it a try tonight

brando_bellcub18_ESO · November 2014

Once upon a time in the campaign known as Auriel's Bow, foward camps were bugged in that after the max player spawn was hit the camp would nolonger be usable but the camp itself would not despawn. So the area that the camp was placed became a no camp block until the camp eventually ran out of health and dissolved.
I can say that due to this bug fighting was much different in Cyrodiil. There was an actual skirmish line between AvA that would be always ongoing. This skirmish line would move back and forth between keeps and be constantly going from reinforcement lines feeding into it. Eventually you would hit a bottleneck like the Gates or Bridges and the defending side could hold a much larger force back.
This whole mechanic that is built into the map was lost once the camps where fixed and became the bloodports insta travel mechanic.
I can still recall how weird I thought it was that a camp would be placed inside a keep being so used to fighting on the skirmish. I for one look forward to the return of the skirmish line.

WebBull · November 2014

I am agree with removal of forward camps but NOT until they improve the ability to rez.

They really need to make rezzing more viable without forward camps.

- cut the single player time of rezzing by 1/3.
- Add an new skill under Allliance War Line - Support that allows you to rez yourself once every half hour.
- Add an new skill under Allliance War Line - Support that allows you to rez 2-3 players within a small radius.

Without improvement to how players currently rez, this will make defense too easy. Also, seems like it will kill questing in enemy territory.

I can just imagine all of the WTB rez spam.

Yonkit · November 2014

Horkerloaf wrote: »

Low levels will quit pvp. It is already difficult to travel without being ganked. Now it will be impossible.

I'm going to agree with this horker. This change is going to make cyrodil for people without the sets, without the experience, without the know how a much more hostile and uninviting place to play. It's not just the sub-vet players that are going to suffer, but the casual players that look to Cyro for an enjoyable change of place where they can have some good battle and die more than they don't and go about their business enjoying the rest of the game.

It's not just non-vets that get curb-stomped by the better/stronger players, but people that just don't take the game quite as seriously as others do. So I can knock someone down, apply a dot or two and wipe them in 3 seconds (not atypical nor unrealistic and not using really any NB skills which would make the kill a bit quicker), that doesn't really mean they now deserve to take 5+ minutes just to get back into a battle. I'm guessing that tedium for little enjoyment will be a bad thing for them and ultimately discourage "casual" play, and I want casual play. I want people to enjoy the game without having to be leet for fear of long riding times just to get back to another quick death.

Making the game as enjoyable for as many people as possible is a very important aspect of maintaining a healthy community, and so far the most support for this change comes from predominantly excellent players who have been looking forward to such a change because it'll benefit their excellent playing the most.

That being said, in the early days when camps were buggy as *** and we rode everywhere anyways without complaint, but it was a much larger community and so there were more fights and more going on than just crickets on buff servers and chaos on Thorn (Wabba). I hope that I'm wrong and this will be an inviting move to which more players will be enticed to come test the waters of cyrodil, but I'm quite wary at this moment.

Xexpo · November 2014

The main reason I am wary/disgruntled about the flat out removal of the FC's is the increased amount of non-pvp time.
I want to pvp. I would like action, it is a game after all.
This update did not make anything more "exhilarating" imo, it made Cyrodiil incredibly more dull.

Frequent horse rides and waiting around Keeps to move out as a group, is how we will be spending most of our time; not actually fighting anyone.

Also the average players AP/hr just dropped quite a bit, the pvp ranks grind just got real-er.

I would like to hear everyone opinions of this in a week or two, when the FC stash's have run dry.
Right now I don't feel like we are seeing the full effect; DC took Emp on Thorn (NA) a few hours after the patch, and it was only possible through Forward Camps.

WebBull · November 2014

kaer426 wrote: »

The main reason I am wary/disgruntled about the flat out removal of the FC's is the increased amount of non-pvp time.
I want to pvp. I would like action, it is a game after all.
This update did not make anything more "exhilarating" imo, it made Cyrodiil incredibly more dull.

Agree. If they were going to remove forward camps completely, they should have improved player rezzing at the same time.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · November 2014

I think the removal is premature. They have given us insight on some skills they plan to implement that will help put a damper on zergballs, But for now zergballs can still easily run people down, especially if combating the "unorganized pugs".

It will certainly aid against death porting across the map, and people will actually have to be ready to ride to the keep that needs defending or attacking, but other things could have been done for that and I just think they couldn't make those things happen, for "technical reasons".

But it looks like there will be no "guild" or "group" FC's. Easier to just get rid of them all together. I like to take the easy way out too sometimes so I won't judge.

diskiukas · November 2014

That is very bad change, that only benefits only all you awesome players from awesome guilds. Casual players, that actually keep this game afloat, since they are biggest contributor to sub fees will not want to die over and over. Yes , I know you going to say -learn to play, spend 7 hours every day to study all skills and which works or not in PVP, find a group etc, but that is not that casuals going to do. If you think that they will stay just for the horse ride, I suggest you think again. I enjoyed PVP so far immensely, Maybe I am wrong and it'll turn to be great change, however I don't see it.

Lettigall · November 2014

Camps shouldn't be removed they should be fixed. 1.Resurrection possible only if you die within camp's radius.
2. After camp is used out or destroyed it can't be replaced in previous radius for 5? minutes.
3. On camp shows name of player who placed
4. Player who places camp gets CD(5?, 10? or even minutes) before he can place new camp

Azarul · November 2014

#1 alone is well worth it.

Insurrektion · November 2014

Lettigall wrote: »

Camps shouldn't be removed they should be fixed. 1.Resurrection possible only if you die within camp's radius.
2. After camp is used out or destroyed it can't be replaced in previous radius for 5? minutes.
3. On camp shows name of player who placed
4. Player who places camp gets CD(5?, 10? or even minutes) before he can place new camp

Honestly dropping the #spawns out of a camp to like 5 and giving them a max radius would reduce how long sieges can last requiring more decisive victories and prevent bloodporting. That said these changes really pave the way for small scale combat.

Lava_Croft · November 2014

Great post, OP!

ZOS has stated that they currently don't have the tech to do anything fancy with forward camps, which leaves complete removal as the only sensible option in my opinion.

k2blader · November 2014

How will this change help low levels (e.g. lower than, say VR12)?

How will it help folks who have maybe 1-2 hours to play per day?

If your answer is basically "Get in an organized group," how often have you led or allowed into your groups folks who fall into the above categories?

Domander · November 2014

It would be cool if they added a movement speed buff to the roads in cyrodiil. It would give a reason to use the roads, but it would be a bit riskier heh.

Psilent · November 2014

This might be a great change for Thornblade, but for the buff servers, this isn't a good change at all. Also, not a great change for Blackwater Blade, cannot imagine that campaign without camps.

Domander · November 2014

Let us buy soul gems with AP please.

Semfim · November 2014

diskiukas wrote: »

That is very bad change, that only benefits only all you awesome players from awesome guilds. Casual players, that actually keep this game afloat, since they are biggest contributor to sub fees will not want to die over and over. Yes , I know you going to say -learn to play, spend 7 hours every day to study all skills and which works or not in PVP, find a group etc, but that is not that casuals going to do. If you think that they will stay just for the horse ride, I suggest you think again. I enjoyed PVP so far immensely, Maybe I am wrong and it'll turn to be great change, however I don't see it.

Not really. The big problem with PvP before this patch was that big trains of said not casual players would blood port where ever there was a menace. Where I play (hello Azura EU) a very organized guild just storms every single move made against their faction using blood porting. It's not like the opponents don't use blood porting but the more time stronger groups need getting to places where the action is greater are the chances of PUG's to do something meaningful. The practical uses of this include 2 groups attacking very distant but important keeps and have the big players go to one place and not being able to prevent the other group from succeding.

I still havent played the new patch but I'm waiting for good times. I literally hated the mechanics of "we need to be somewhere fast, everyone suicide at a enemy resource, OH AND DONT FORGET NOT TO USE SKILLS SO THE WE DONT TAKE THE RESOURCE"... Gankers will also have a use, not just being a fast travel mechanism.

Of course I know that keep attacks be riskier, mainly with the crazy NPC's that detect stealthed chars from miles away, take a bunch of non elite people to take down and mostly make it easier to defend than to attack. But i feel the game now will be more leveled and will allow for strategies other than best builds and group synergies.

Tintinabula · November 2014

How are those reasons working out for ya tonight buddy? On Thornblade NA no one is sieging..everyone is gathered around keeps or outposts.(with their ganking bow)

If this is what Zeni intended..NON sieging PVP..they got it. lmao

Leovolao · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

How are those reasons working out for ya tonight buddy? On Thornblade NA no one is sieging..everyone is gathered around keeps or outposts.(with their ganking bow)

If this is what Zeni intended..NON sieging PVP..they got it. lmao

Yeah, it didn't work so well. No one pushes because dying outside will probably mean you'll have to ride back to the keep. Everyone just stands on the wall sniping and looking pretty.

VileIntent · November 2014

Chain trains!! 3 DK one yanks the heals off the wall one yanks him a bit further last one yanks him deep into your lines. let the lawls begin.

VileIntent · November 2014

Horkerloaf wrote: »

Low levels will quit pvp. It is already difficult to travel without being ganked. Now it will be impossible.

Wrong, they have their own cyrodiil.
IMHO pre 50 should be forced into the non vet cyrodiil

demonlkojipub19_ESO · November 2014

To add, the population disparities will make the lack of forward camps even worse.

Tintinabula · November 2014

dreadfully boring game now..nothing is dynamic..no comebacks..no push backs..you die your dead..respawn don't try again cause the ride is atrocious.

Subtomik · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

dreadfully boring game now..nothing is dynamic..no comebacks..no push backs..you die your dead..respawn don't try again cause the ride is atrocious.

Can I have your stuff now that you are leaving?

Agrippa_Invisus · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

dreadfully boring game now..nothing is dynamic..no comebacks..no push backs..you die your dead..respawn don't try again cause the ride is atrocious.

Just had a clutch last minute save of BRK from AD.

Defenders inside fought and scraped to hold every inch of the inner from the AD, an organized guild by appearances. We even reclaimed the back flag from them at one point and the AD burned through several precious tents to stay at BRK.

We bought every second we could for reinforcements to get there.

And just as the last defender fell, the back flag flipped and the front was starting to turn, reinforcements poured into the keep and wiped the AD.

Glorious.

Subtomik · November 2014

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

dreadfully boring game now..nothing is dynamic..no comebacks..no push backs..you die your dead..respawn don't try again cause the ride is atrocious.

Just had a clutch last minute save of BRK from AD.

Defenders inside fought and scraped to hold every inch of the inner from the AD, an organized guild by appearances. We even reclaimed the back flag from them at one point and the AD burned through several precious tents to stay at BRK.

We bought every second we could for reinforcements to get there.

And just as the last defender fell, the back flag flipped and the front was starting to turn, reinforcements poured into the keep and wiped the AD.

Glorious.

This is the stuff I love to hear.

Cant wait to get on, really wish I would of skipped work today and patched lol damn real life duties

Tintinabula · November 2014

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

dreadfully boring game now..nothing is dynamic..no comebacks..no push backs..you die your dead..respawn don't try again cause the ride is atrocious.

Just had a clutch last minute save of BRK from AD.

Defenders inside fought and scraped to hold every inch of the inner from the AD, an organized guild by appearances. We even reclaimed the back flag from them at one point and the AD burned through several precious tents to stay at BRK.

We bought every second we could for reinforcements to get there.

And just as the last defender fell, the back flag flipped and the front was starting to turn, reinforcements poured into the keep and wiped the AD.

Glorious.

right..with tents.

MaximillianDiE · November 2014

This is a fantastic move. The game is starting to resemble DAOC rvr more and more with every patch which is great as CU is a really long way off still.

I'm looking forward to being able to have the option to go and gank/small man supply lines and people running back to the front again. Removing supply tents also makes dying in a keep attack/defence mean something as it was before they fixed supply camps. Those two elements will make the meta of this game far more enjoyable for me again.

MormondPayne_EP · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

How are those reasons working out for ya tonight buddy? On Thornblade NA no one is sieging..everyone is gathered around keeps or outposts.(with their ganking bow)

If this is what Zeni intended..NON sieging PVP..they got it. lmao

Exactly... PvNothing...

So cool, bows everywhere and no one moving for fear of getting ganked.

Alomar · November 2014

Changing camps to only being usable by those in the radius was the way to go and would of fixed the cross map camp hopping instantaneously. Yet, they've decided to ninja patch once again without testing or feedback.

I know of 6 unsub's already. There was a problem yes, but removing features has always been the easy way out rather than using some brainstorming and actually doing something smart. It's a shame to see Bethesda associated with such a company, deception is never a nice quality.