5 Reasons Why Removal of Forward Camps Will Save PvP in ESO

Minnesinger

This thread is an interesting reading. I have to admit that my opinion has altered whether the change is good. After reading many comments and what Hovaling wrote I am more positive about the change.

Certainly, some more tactical movement must be invented. Altering the routes, gathering larger force, using of scouts.... The traditional way of riding in random groups/solo isn´t optimal anymore. Most of the time people didn´t bother to stop if someone just got ganked. They just rode past.

If we are to expect more tactical approach to that problem we will see counter-gank groups. Generally speaking, all actions must take into account the possibility of loosing players for 5-10 mins if they fall.

This could also result in slower capping of the keeps. Smaller force could make a stand against a larger "unorganized" groups.

Lastly, I am happy not to wonder why the last user of a forward camp didn´t replace it. I know not all notice it or they didn´t have a forward camp but that doesn´t explain why so often they weren´t replaced. Was it to save up the precious AP?

TheLaw

I changed my mind....Pvp is actually WAY WAY better!

cazlonb16_ESO

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

1 Reason Why Removal of Forward Camps Will Destroy PvP in ESO

Catering to premade or gank group style of play kills games.

Premades and gank groups are a small minority of players. The bulk of players are either casuals or not nearly as good as they think they are. Catering to vocal premade players will simply result in a slow and steady population decrease until a tipping point is reached (because not enough casuals are left to zerg it up), and then a mass exodus will occur. Once the population tanks, the people left will make posts about how they have no idea why PvP is a ghost town - because PvP was so much darn fun! ZOS will finally panic and make good changes, but because of their history of blindingly fast rate issue patching, it will be too late. Not long after that, the remaining PvPers will also move on to another game because they weren't really in it for gvg competition, they just wanted to pug stomp. That's not entirely fair, some want competition, but settle for pug stomp, because their group just can't run with the 2-3 big dogs.

I'm not prescient. Our set group has just seen it happen in game after game. In this case, forcing players to run for an extended period of time only to get ganked and have to try again, or the standing and the waiting for zerg pop, is a bad change. What they should have done is just made it so forward camps could only be dropped at a moderate radial distance from any siegeable point.

Yup. With the experience at least some of the people working for Zenimaxx have in the genre, they really should know that.

( These are also the reasons FFA PvP servers failed miserably in pretty much all major MMOs, even DaoC. )

Koensol

One step in the right direction. Let's hope more steps are coming soon. Can't wait to see this take effect and bring back the awsome small scale pvp in this game. It will be awsome to take part in fights without any lag for once. Well done with expressing your points OP!

lostavalon

oh yea this is a great idea for pvp during prime time, anyone think of when it dies down? whatever aliance that gets double teamed pretty much cannot withstand the force of 2 alliances, all it is, will be wipe move back 1 keep, wipe move back another keep, o *** they both have a scroll each and are running off with it,

myself work during prime time so i cant play then, i used to like gettin on to pvp at night, now its just gona be gettin back home keeps to just get wiped by overwhelming numbers, this maybe the change that ppl wnated but alot of ppl arnt going to hang around if it is goin to be like they way it is atm, its slowly goin die

what bout the precious D/O ticks, with the amount of ap needed to gain alliance lvls its gona take how long to lvl it up?

fc's did need to be nerfed but not taken out completely, not with a map as big as what it is, the fun unfortutly for me is fading away

this is coming from a someone that doesnt get to play prime time often!! and im sure im not the only one

orobferb16_ESO

What you think guys about heavy armor ?
I mean now death is important, so if you survive a bit longer, you have more chances to get reinforcements, so maybe using heavy armor is an option, I dont know maybe is just something to test.

mainmaneb17_ESO

Alomar wrote: »

Changing camps to only being usable by those in the radius was the way to go and would of fixed the cross map camp hopping instantaneously. Yet, they've decided to ninja patch once again without testing or feedback.

- This should be blatantly obvious to everyone, however if you want to avoid spending money on hardware the easiest solution is to keep us mounted as we don’t clog the servers cpu with those pesky calculations.

lostavalon wrote: »

oh yea this is a great idea for pvp during prime time, anyone think of when it dies down?

-On EU servers there seems to be imbalance between the factions, especially outside primetime. I’d be willing to pay a good chunk of money to read what they (bigZ) wrote in their meeting notes when they addressed that issue.

Rylana

Now that sharpened got fixed, heavy passives are a bit more attractive, but there will always be the issue of damage vs defense, and in this game's meta damage is currently the only way to go.

There are too many self heal/shield/mitigation active class abilities and passives to make heavy an option for most.

EIGHTS

It only means : No population! No chance to win!

If your alliance always has no chance to win, no people will play PvP.
This will destory the Alliance war.

Dryyab

From the patch notes :

Forward Camps will no longer be sold by Merchants in Cyrodiil.

Any Forward Camps that currently exist in-game cannot be traded with others.
You are required to be at least Alliance Rank 6 or higher to deploy a Forward Camp.

Is it just me or camps will still be available somehow? just impossible to spam and as a rare resource?
or does it mean that all camps that are currently owned the last we will see (for a while at least)?

Rylana

Dryyab wrote: »

From the patch notes :

Forward Camps will no longer be sold by Merchants in Cyrodiil.

Any Forward Camps that currently exist in-game cannot be traded with others.
You are required to be at least Alliance Rank 6 or higher to deploy a Forward Camp.

Is it just me or camps will still be available somehow? just impossible to spam and as a rare resource?
or does it mean that all camps that are currently owned the last we will see (for a while at least)?

Thats for remaining camps (in case some lowbie troll camper had five dozen in his mailbox).

Dryyab

sad... could be a great reward for a daily PvP quest or something... Or as an end of campaign reward the top 100 players of alliance receive 5 camps each or something like that...

also if they remove camps , why do they keep giving limited camps with 1 respawn? seems pointless...

I might be overanalysing, but I think they dont plan on scraping the forwards camps completely...

Jitterbug

Time to slot Retreating Maneuver again I guess... That's cool, I kinda missed it.
This also means that I don't have a single sorc ability on my bow bar :P

Rylana

Whether or not they have anything planned for camps in the future I dont know, but it seems pretty straightforward that for at least the forseeable future, camp wars has come to a close.

Dryyab

I am happy about the fact that they changed that mechanic...
I just don't understand a few things and probably never will lol ...
all these camps spamming made fights endless... how many 3-4 hours or more fights have I seen for a single keep...That clearly needed work (especially with the way dee-tick and o-tick works)

the few things that confuse me and why (taken form patch notes):

Forward Camps will no longer be sold by Merchants in Cyrodiil.

could mean that there is another way to get one... doesn't specifically say camps are removed, just that you cant buy them from merchants anymore

Any Forward Camps that currently exist in-game cannot be traded with others.

The words currently exist... could mean more could exist

Adjusted some functionality with Limited Forward Camps:

Limited Forward Camps will now allow only one respawn, and cannot be traded with others.
Reduced the hitpoints for Limited Forward Camps.
Limited Forward Camps now have a faster degrade rate than normal Forward Camps.

Why train people with the use of limited camps if you can't have camps at all except that useless one?

I believe that camp spamming was not good, but I also believe that as a very limited resource, it could be a good thing for a good advantage while stopping the spamming and camp trolling (also with rank 6 that will help that) and they wouldn't have to scrap them altogether.

Also, if they decide to give camps as a reward for the least popular quests it could be a great incentive to do them...

diskiukas

Last night experience wasn't great for me. Playing on Thorn with my DC alt for about an hour I had 4 kills and 2 deaths. One time ganked from the horse one time rode to the AD owned keep and all of us got zerged within 2 minutes. Did not see a point to ride back for 10 minutes.My kills were easy, because our keeps were attacked by small forces and we had advantage of our transit shrines. Before yesterday, within an hour I used to have at least 30-40 kills, because the battles were big and I was always able to get to the thick of the action. I have alt AD on Haderus and there was good battle with EP for about 30 minutes for mine resource , but the only reason it was good, because EP had FC still and were able to respawn and keep fighting, otherwise the fight would've lasted 2 minutes.

LonePirate

Koensol wrote: »

One step in the right direction. Let's hope more steps are coming soon. Can't wait to see this take effect and bring back the awsome small scale pvp in this game. It will be awsome to take part in fights without any lag for once. Well done with expressing your points OP!

Um, small scale, lag free PVP already exists on the three buff servers.

This FC change has pretty much killed (or soon will kill once all the camps are gone) the large scale PVP on the only campaign that has enough players to support those types of battles.

driosketch

Dryyab wrote: »

sad... could be a great reward for a daily PvP quest or something... Or as an end of campaign reward the top 100 players of alliance receive 5 camps each or something like that...

also if they remove camps , why do they keep giving limited camps with 1 respawn? seems pointless...

I might be overanalysing, but I think they dont plan on scraping the forwards camps completely...

@Dryyab In my post on getting around the original restriction they had planned on the PTS, Brian explained that to remove the limited FC from the tutorial, they also needed to rewrite and revoice the NPC who gives it to you. Obviously they ran out of time before the update went live, so they opted to nerf it into the ground for the time being until they yank it completely.

Poxheart

Gotta laugh at all the people whinging about this change because "they want action." Dying and spawning at a camp repeatedly is not action.

Ifthir_ESO

LonePirate wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Daoc was the best pvp ever and still runs, so has.

Then why are you playing ESO?

Dude, Matt Firor. Duh.

Lettigall

Poxheart wrote: »

Gotta laugh at all the people whinging about this change because "they want action." Dying and spawning at a camp repeatedly is not action.

Riding 5 or more minutes to keep every time you get ganked is action?

Davadin

PBpsy wrote: »

TheLaw wrote: »

Thornblade is dead. Not much of a save.

Yes. Lowest pop in quite some time and stagnant as crap.

Fighting on freaking bridge simulator. EPIC

You know most PvP-er wants to try the new (much better much more) PvE content, right?

Poxheart

Lettigall wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Gotta laugh at all the people whinging about this change because "they want action." Dying and spawning at a camp repeatedly is not action.

Riding 5 or more minutes to keep every time you get ganked is action?

Get better and don't die. Look at the map, learn where the gank spots are and sneak. The game is a whole lot better when players actually have to put some thought into getting to the fights.

Davadin

Lettigall wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Gotta laugh at all the people whinging about this change because "they want action." Dying and spawning at a camp repeatedly is not action.

Riding 5 or more minutes to keep every time you get ganked is action?

get a faster horse. took about than 2 minutes for me to ride between keeps.

and considering the fight goes on for 10-15 min since there's no more zerg since everyone's afraid to die, the damn ride is worth it.

orobferb16_ESO wrote: »

What you think guys about heavy armor ?
I mean now death is important, so if you survive a bit longer, you have more chances to get reinforcements, so maybe using heavy armor is an option, I dont know maybe is just something to test.

ive always used heavies. go ask all those VR14 out there that meet me in Cyro hows my survivability as a VR3-VR6. (i switched at VR3 from mostly Light). some nights i get a lot of hate tells accusing me of haxx....

Don't get me wrong, i still die A LOT. with a couple Sorc nuking me or a couple NB ganked, I usually don't walk out alive....

But i survive better. Before heavies, i can get pretty much one-shotted. Now at least i have a couple seconds to pop a pot and hit green dragon blood... and run the *** away.

Also more health more armor and better heals mean my attack my barely leave them a scratch, sure, but I easily hit 2.8k health with close to soft-cap armors. So people tends to go after softer targets... because face it, most people who's not fresh out of the gate has an add-on to see how much health their enemy has. And you want to start with the low 2k ones first... While if they hit me, and noticed my armor absorbed most of their melee, they usually think twice.


Bottom line, yes. Give Heavies a shot if you have the skill points to do it. It needs a LOT of buff still for PvP gameplay, but i'm getting too comfortable not being one-shotted to switch back to light/medium....

Draxys

maybe people will discover rapid maneuver now... maybe not

Agrippa_Invisus

I spent yesterday evening playing with a heavy armor setup because... why the heck not?

At one point I stood in front of a resource tower and tanked through repeated Lethal Arrows. With wings, Absorb Magicka, and capped armor rating they couldn't touch me.

All the stick waving LA wearers were getting mowed down.

Armitas

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@c0rp Siege damage vs. Players and Walls/Doors are next on the list to look into after the dust of Forward Camps settles. As I'm sure everyone in this thread and the Alliance War thread knows as a whole, moving one piece in the jenga castle of Cyrodiil isn't as easy as it always sounds

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Respectfully.

To take the Jenga castle further one cannot move one piece at a time. If you pull 1 block 4 other blocks will pull with it. An obvious block that will move with the camp block is soul gem requirements. But those were not accounted for. Another obvious block will be the shift in bursting down keeps while unattended. This is already happening. Players are maximizing their push because they know there is no room for error. More keeps are flipping without any PvP even occurring in them.

To take 1 block at a time is to guinea pig the player base. Whatever adverse effects occur in each test we must suffer and experience them until the next update. What we want is for you guys to say "If I pull this block what other blocks will likely come with it". Then mitigate those blocks that are probable in conjunction with the block you want to pull. For example...

* Increase the drop rate of soul gems in the pvp reward mail. You can even make them Cyrodiil only if need be.
* Increase the health of keeps
* increase the keep flag timer
* Allow a rezer to consume the corpses soul gems

All that could have been done ahead of time to clear the dust of FC removal quicker. If you take a look at the FC camp removal threads from way back a lot of us were okay with their removal so long as there were mitigating conditions, others had ideas in which camps could be nerfed. There were no mitigating conditions in 1.5 just a flat removal.

To demolish a building one has to study it's plan and have an expert put explosives at the right points so that it crumples straight down. Here I feel like we whacked it with a hammer under the expectation that we can just fix any damage the falling building causes to the surrounding neighborhood later. We players are the people that live in that neighborhood.

Davadin

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I spent yesterday evening playing with a heavy armor setup because... why the heck not?

At one point I stood in front of a resource tower and tanked through repeated Lethal Arrows. With wings, Absorb Magicka, and capped armor rating they couldn't touch me.

All the stick waving LA wearers were getting mowed down.

I need to get that Absorb Magicka thing... what is that.

I can now tank the NPCs but a couple lethal arrows would drop me fast, even with wings...

Xsorus

Davadin wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I spent yesterday evening playing with a heavy armor setup because... why the heck not?

At one point I stood in front of a resource tower and tanked through repeated Lethal Arrows. With wings, Absorb Magicka, and capped armor rating they couldn't touch me.

All the stick waving LA wearers were getting mowed down.

I need to get that Absorb Magicka thing... what is that.

I can now tank the NPCs but a couple lethal arrows would drop me fast, even with wings...

Its the other morph of Defensive stance, its not pretty much a 400ish heal in pvp that's fairly cheap if you block any spell. It and Rally are very nice.

Though i can't fit it on my bar anymore thanks to Power Bash Healing debuff morph taking that slot.

Maulkin

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I spent yesterday evening playing with a heavy armor setup because... why the heck not?

At one point I stood in front of a resource tower and tanked through repeated Lethal Arrows. With wings, Absorb Magicka, and capped armor rating they couldn't touch me.

All the stick waving LA wearers were getting mowed down.

Meh. I can keep my wings flapping for longer with light armor and also Razor Armor both soft caps my armor and procs Burning Heart passive.

Cloth fo' life, yo